Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

My friend's new DP wants her to sign away any future claim on their flat

250 replies

Flingmoo · 15/10/2014 23:02

My friend has been with her new partner (first real partner actually) for about 6 months and they are going to move in together. They're currently both renting and he wants to buy a flat in only his name but have her paying 50/50 towards bills/mortgage payments. He's owned a house before but rents now.

Because he's been stung before by a girlfriend taking half the property when they split up, he wants her to sign some kind of "pre nup" style agreement that she will not be entitled to any share of the flat if they split. She was 100% happy to do this until her parents criticised that plan and has now asked me for advice on it (me being married with mortgage and a baby, she assumes I'm some sort of wise sage on relationship issues...!)

In her view, she's always rented anyway, so she doesn't feel she's any worse off by entering into this sort of agreement, to her its no different from renting, where you obviously don't have any property at the end of it.

People of mumsnet, what are your views on this...? Personally I think she should at least be entitled to whatever amount she'll have paid into the property in the event that they split up. Otherwise, if they did ever split up, it'd seem as if he's used her as a lodger to help pay his mortgage!

OP posts:
slithytove · 16/10/2014 11:36

My friend has a 2 bed flat in London, interest only mortgage is about £1000. Market rate rent is around £500pw. When she had a flatmate, the mortgage was fully covered.

When she moved her boyfriend in and the flatmate out, why should he have lived rent free just because she had a mortgage? He knew the situation, and paying half the mortgage meant that he was better off than paying market rent elsewhere. Plus they both benefited from not being in a flatmate situation. My friend the homeowner did lose out financially from living with a body friend rather than a flatmate, yet some on this thread would advocate her losing out even more.

TheRealMaryMillington · 16/10/2014 11:38

He wants to buy and has saved deposit
He can't afford the mortgage on his own
Conveniently, right about that point, he invites his girlfriend to move in.

Er….

gobbynorthernbird · 16/10/2014 11:41

It depends on if he said 'I want you to pay half my mortgage', or if during the course of a discussion about finances he said 'you currently pay X in rent, my mortgage is Y, 50% of that is Z which seems a reasonable figure'.

I can totally understand why he would want this, but IMO a tenancy agreement (to protect your friend) would be the best way to go. And these are time limited anyway, so can be reviewed if the relationship progresses.

Twinklestein · 16/10/2014 11:41

slithytove I asked what's the market rate for 'half a bed and a shared bedroom'... ie a one bed...

Read PerfectStorm's posts, she's put it best here, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

purpleapple1234 · 16/10/2014 11:42

The hard part of owning your own property is getting the deposit money together. If she has contributed or intends to contribute half she gets half the flat. If she hasn't then she pays to live there and pays for the bills like any other tenant. Maybe they should review the situation after a year. If they have kids or gets married then it is reasonable to assume that then it will become a joint asset regardless of who bought it. If they split up all that has happened is that she has paid for somewhere to live.

AwakeCantSleep · 16/10/2014 11:43

he can't afford the mortgage on his own

Where does it say this? New mortgage affordability rules post MMR mean that lenders now take a wide range of expenses into account when assessing affordability. They 'stress test' the application at interest rates of around 7%. Lodger income is not taken into account.

If he can't afford a mortgage he is very unlikely to get one.

BarbarianMum · 16/10/2014 11:44

He's being very up front with her about the deal though MaryM If it's not convenient for her, she can just say 'no' can't she? But if the terms suit her and she's clear enough about the financial implications then why not?

middlings · 16/10/2014 11:55

I'm with surfsup (I think - I read the thread fast).

When now DH and I had been together for about a year, we started talking about moving in together and he mooted the possibility of buying. I told him I wasn't prepared to buy with someone until I was as certain as I could be that the relationship was permanent. DH said, at that point, he couldn't give me that guarantee.

I said fine, if he wanted to buy, he needed to buy a place he could afford on his own and I would rent from him. We investigated the cost of a room to rent in our local area (yes, I was sharing but I decided to let that one slide) and I paid him that amount in rent until we were engaged, at which point I upped it.

I paid him up to the tax efficient "rent a room" amount into his bank account and the balance, plus 50% of the bill money into our joint account. I bought various bits of furniture but didn't buy so much as a tin of paint until we were engaged. We're now married and have two children. We live somewhere else but still own that house and have a declaration of trust that says it's half mine (cheaper and easier than reapplying for the mortgage to get me onto the deeds).

Some people think I was mad [shrugs] but it meant I was no worse off than if I was in a house share, and could continue to contribute to my own savings so if the relationship didn't work, I had something to fall back on. From DH's perspective, he was in a house that he could afford, but was greatly helped by the fact that someone was helping him out with mortgage and bills.

If your friend's DP wants to buy something he can't afford on his own, then he needs to get a lodger. She should not (unless it's commensurate with market rent, in which event she should sign a tenancy agreement) be paying 50% of the mortgage. As others have stated, the other option is to buy together but as tenants in common. That way she will benefit from any price increase, but only in a manner proportionate to her investment.

Good luck having the conversation though. I was a jaded 30 year old when I was in this situation, not a starry eyed 24 year old in my first relationship! DH was an even more jaded 41 year old!!

ChelsyHandy · 16/10/2014 11:59

So it's a bit much that he expects her to pay 50% of his mortgage, plus 50% of bills, food etc, and yet expect her to sign a document (probably with no legal substance) that says she can never have any "interest" in the value of the property. Any such document would carry no legal weight anyway, it's like a landlord demanding access to a rented property with 24 hrs notice, completely unenforceable.

Of course a legal document renouncing a non-entitled spouse or partner's rights would be of legal effect. Its a standard document that mortgage providers usually require to be signed.

And if you are in Scotland, you are mistaking the law relating to economic interest in shared property when a relationship breaks down. That is based on the concept of economic disadvantage. In this scenario, she would not be able to prove economic disadvantage, because if they split up years down the line, she would not have been economically disadvantaged unless she could prove she had outlays relating to property in the relationship which significantly outweighed those she would have had to pay to live otherwise. The only couple of cases which succeeded under that law involved partners who had sold their own properties to invest in those of the other partner to the relationship.

In other words, she would still have to pay rent and bills or a share of wherever she lived. Its not considered an economic disadvantage to do so. The law doesn't presume a partner will provide for another financially, particularly not after a 6 month relationship.

Some mumsnetters also seem to think that anyone who pays rent is paying someone else's mortgage. They forget those inconvenient things such as saving up for a deposit, meeting the financial checks for mortgages, conveyancing fees, stamp duty, furnishing, etc.. Plus a mortgage might cost £450 a month (mine does on a similar sized property) but rent for £900 plus a month. But the buying process and deposit might have meant an outlay of £40,000 to get that mortgage payment. And if the roof or central heating needs fixed, guess who pays?

I do see women who do this - they tag onto some man with a good job, a bit older, and move into their property. Then if they are lucky the relationship works, if they are unlucky it breaks down in time and they have to rent a room in a flat somewhere - that's their choice. Other women, like me, choose to buy our own properties, even if we met a man with his own house and moved in. Its not exploitation by the man - its more like wishful thinking by the woman that some fairytale will mean they don't ever have to face up to the realities of life and sort out their own property to live in. That someone they barely know will just give them a half share in a property without any financial contribution beyond paying their own way in life. Its ridiculous.

I use the words "men and women" but I know men who do this too. I'd hate to be in a relationship so unbalanced, it would feel all wrong.

In this example, theres nothing to stop this relatively young woman from continuing to work, save up her own deposit and buying her own property in time.

ChelsyHandy · 16/10/2014 12:08

TheRealMaryMillington He wants to buy and has saved deposit. He can't afford the mortgage on his own. Conveniently, right about that point, he invites his girlfriend to move in

I take it you haven't applied for a mortgage recently. They just do not give out mortgages like sweeties if you ask nicely. He would not be given a mortgage unless he could afford the repayments on his earnings. New questions mean that applicants are asked about all their expenses. Rental or lodger income cannot be taken into account because its too uncertain (might move out) and its not a buy to let (as it would be his main residence).

Twinklestein slithytove I asked what's the market rate for 'half a bed and a shared bedroom'... ie a one bed

Around here a shared room with twin beds would still be around £350 - £400 a month, often plus share of bills, and people do share like this - I see them advertised and I shared a room in a one bedroom house when I was a student and it was ok. It was mainly ok because it enabled us to stay in an actual small house which had other rooms such as the living room, kitchen and bathroom.

campingfilth · 16/10/2014 12:14

I'm with him on this tbh apart from the 50/50 bit as I think she should pay the going rate for a lodger inc bills and no more. Not pay any towards upkeep of property etc.

There is no way I would risk my house absolutely no way so if (big fat if) I ever met anyone that I would like to move in with me they would be signing such an agreement too. My house, my deposit and no way would I risk losing it or any of it going to anyone other than my DS. However, I would charge them what I charge my lodger and would not expect them to contribute to anything other than food.

tipsytrifle · 16/10/2014 12:17

I just don't think 6mths is long enough to be hitching wagons together in any way at all, no matter how brilliant the relationship seems to be.

slithytove · 16/10/2014 12:24

I haven't twinkle and it's all moot when you have no idea where or what they might rent together

notinagreatplace · 16/10/2014 12:26

Honestly, at six months, I think it is OTT to assume that he is a bastard or trying to take advantage of her for not wanting either to own jointly or to support her. I think it is quite reasonable that he wants to protect himself financially.

If she actively wants to move in with him, I think she should do so BUT the rent that she pays him should not be linked in any way to his mortgage - she doesn't get the benefits of ownership so shouldn't get the costs and, for example, should not have her rent payments go up with interest rates. She should agree a rent with him based on market rent in the area (and, no, she doesn't get to deduct something for "sexual services" as someone so charmingly put it - she's not a prostitute and the sex should be mutually pleasurable). I agree with those who say that, because she wouldn't be a tenant but a lodger with fewer rights, she should pay less rent.

I think she should be wary of ending up in a bad position - if they stay together and, especially, if they have children and she gives up or reduces working because of this, she needs to make sure that they revisit this. But, for now, at 24 with a relationship that has only lasted 6 months so far, I think it's pretty reasonable for them to have separate finances.

I do also think, though, that she should strongly consider not moving in with him just yet - not because of this issue but just because it's very quick!

TaliZorahVasNormandy · 16/10/2014 12:32

If she is thinking about doing this, then the smart thing to do would be to draw up a rental contract, giving her at least a month to move if things do go wrong and some sort of deposit so she can find another place, at least that way, he wont be able to just kick her out.

DayLillie · 16/10/2014 12:33

She is, in effect, a lodger sharing facilities and helping him pay his bills. So this is what she should pay.

Also, if he is taking half the mortgage off her, but she is not on the mortgage so is not actually paying half the mortgage, that will be taxable, so needs to be a rate that is for a lodger.

Twinklestein · 16/10/2014 12:36

Of course people share like that Chelsea, that's the point. So what she is asked to contribute should not exceed half the bills and a rent comparable to what she would be paying for similar living accommodation elsewhere. That's where the discussion should start not a blanket 50% of the mortgage.

CountessRosinaAlmaviva · 16/10/2014 12:41

This is not the same as renting, this is the same as being a lodger. I can see why the partner might want to wholly own the property, apart from anything else it means that he won't have to make the choice between buying her out or selling the property if they split up. But he has to realise that having a greater benefit means taking on a larger part of the expenses. And she has to be aware that she has much less security than she would if she was renting, as a lodger she risks being kicked out with no notice at all.

I think she should investigate how much she would have to pay as a lodger in someone's home, it will usually be less than a flat/house share and will usually be inclusive of utilities. That's around the amount that she could offer to pay, and they could then split food costs. Then she should put the difference between that and the rent that she would expect to pay if she was on her own into a savings account so that she has enough if she has to leave at short notice. She would need to pay for short-term accommodation while she looks for somewhere to rent, and also pay for the rental deposit when she finds somewhere so a nest egg will be vital.

slithytove · 16/10/2014 12:44

Twinkle, it is very possible that a blanket 50% of the mortgage is cheaper than 50% of rent for a shared place - in which case she will be better off too

slithytove · 16/10/2014 12:45

I didn't realise lodgers had no notice, when I rented at uni my flatmate owned the place, but I had a proper contract with 2 months notice on my side, 1 on his. I don't see why this isn't possible.

TheRealMaryMillington · 16/10/2014 12:46

Yeah, yeah, I know all that stuff about rental income, yadda yadda

He must be able - technically- to afford the mortgage repayments on home that he wishes to buy for himself. Saved the deposit. Good for him. (However, having someone paying him will probably ease the pain of making them/make him a nice little profit, great timing too [cynical])

slithytove · 16/10/2014 12:47

If I was the guy and wanted to live with her, I would try and get a flat on a btl mortgage so she couldn't be involved. Then rent somewhere else together.

Though if I was the girl and given the option of rent from a private landlord at say £500pm, or rent from bf at say £300pm, plus all the advantages of being able to make adjustments to the property, id choose the latter. Plus at least you aren't paying some random persons mortgage off!

Twinklestein · 16/10/2014 12:49

But if that was the case, why phrase it like he did, why are the parents and the OP so concerned? If she had been offered a fair deal, there would be no need for the thread.

ChelsyHandy · 16/10/2014 12:50

Twinklestein Of course people share like that Chelsea, that's the point. So what she is asked to contribute should not exceed half the bills and a rent comparable to what she would be paying for similar living accommodation elsewhere. That's where the discussion should start not a blanket 50% of the mortgage.

Thank goodness for some more common sense responses coming through on this thread now.

I agree; I would question whether the paying half the mortgage statement is what was actually said or likely to be enforced - who knows. Paying half the mortgage would entail paying interest rate fluctuations and repair bills as well, and I can't think anyone would suggest that as well as signing a pre-nup style agreement - they would cancel each other out and there would be no point.

Paying for and getting a standard rent a room lease, including or plus share of bills seems sensible. Personally if I were in this situation, I would also have a pre-nup (for want of a better word) and a very well worded tenancy agreement. She should also avoid paying for decoration and repair bills to the property.

She might end up paying less than in a similar private rental, which might explain the rather odd reference to paying half the mortgage - it might be a smallish figure compared to the open market, so just got referred to as that - again, who knows. I know that round here, the rent a room tax exemption is lower than the market rate you would get for such a scenario.

Again, she has the choice not to move in and to live elsewhere.

ChelsyHandy · 16/10/2014 12:55

stlithytove If I was the guy and wanted to live with her, I would try and get a flat on a btl mortgage so she couldn't be involved. Then rent somewhere else together.

You can't get a btl mortgage on a main residence. It has to on a second (or third etc) property, not your main home.

Theres no reason why a lodger, or someone renting a room, cannot have a proper tenancy agreement with a notice period. It simply means that some of the bigger protections against eviction don't apply, as if you are living in someone's home, and commit an act of gross misconduct (I know of one landlord who was sexually assaulted by their lodger), the police will generally throw out the lodger if they refuse to leave.

TheRealMaryMillington (However, having someone paying him will probably ease the pain of making them/make him a nice little profit, great timing too [cynical])

Well, since lots of people who buy rent out rooms to help pay the mortgage, I cannot see the problem with this? Its still cheaper than buying yourself, otherwise people wouldn't do it. He also runs the risk of a loss as well or of losing his job and defaulting on the mortgage payments and losing his deposit or whatever.