My mum wants 'to talk' - I'm feeling sick about it

[pippinleaf]

Won't bore you with all the details but I'm nearing 40 and have a very poor relationship/no relationship with my mum. She's been depressed since I was a baby and is very self centred. My father told me that her depression was my fault and my only memories of her are of crying, bit dramatic scenes etc. she used to read my diaries and drag me home from school to take me to task over bangs she'd read in them. She has cheated on my dad for long periods of time and myself and my sister thinks she still is. When my sister had her children my mum was so wrapped up in herself she didn't visit.

When she does see me she wants to create huge emotional scenes - she asks things like 'why don't you love me? Why won't you hug me? I know you hate me' etc. truth is, I don't love her, don't want to hug her and probably don't hate her but I certainly don't like her and want nothing to do with her. The only reason I contemplate a relationship with her and see her about four times a year is because I think it would hurt my sister, who maintains some kind of relationship with her, and my dad refuses to see me unless mum is there (he feels we should all be nice to mum because she's 'ill' and he seems himself as her guardian. He has told myself and my sister that he chose mum over us - fair enough.

I long ago promised myself I would not be in a room alone with her as she would always want a drama which I simply cannot handle. I have been to counselling several times over it and have concluded that our very distant relationship is all I can handle.

Dad is away at the moment, she refuses to go anywhere with him so he's gone alone, and has emailed this morning to say that mum wants to 'speak to me' and my sister. This has filled me with dread, fear and panic. This doesn't mean she wants a nice chat over tea, this means she wants another of her scenes - the last one ended with her telling me I was not allowed to socialise with a work colleague as my colleague is the same age as my mum and 'how do you think that makes me feel?!!!' (She's never allowed me to have friendships with older women as she feels I'm replacing her - which I probably am). I told her I didn't care and she stormed out. Some minutes later hammered on my door to continue to drama and I wouldn't answer.

She lives about twenty minutes away from my house. I'm married with our first baby on the way. I have a very close relationship with my sister who feels sorry for mum but also finds her very difficult.

I just don't know what to do. If I don't see her I'll get dad phoning / emailing me saying I'm selfish. I will get my sister crying saying she feels stuck in the middle. If I see her I will feel physically ill for the time leading up to the meeting and I can see no purpose to seeing her other than to set a stage for her drama.

I simply don't know what to do. Assuming I see her, what can I say? I can listen to whatever emotional crap she wants to come out with but I can't say whatever she wants me to say back. My husband doesn't really know her as we've been distant since before I met him. Hs family are 'normal' and he is sympathetic but doesn't understand.

Help!

I would love to go completely no contact. I am envious of people who have done that and wish there would be a really terrible incident that would warrant me announcing my response in that way.

I am almost completely nc with my mother. I see her every other year-ish in a larger family gathering. I ignore her calls, emails, texts.

There was no single triggering event. I just couldn't be doing with it any more. I am also the "scapegoat".

No one in my family knows that I made a decision to go nc. Telling them would just result in a scene and emotional blackmail. You can't reason with an unreasonable person. You can't reason with the winged monkeys. They are all about the appeasement. I would be accused of creating needless drama. Oh the irony.

You don't have to make your sister choose. Just carry on as you are.

I will get my sister crying saying she feels stuck in the middle. Ah-ha! You can use my main drama-llama meeting strategy here:

Agree to meet them. All arrangements are left to them to sort out. Often that is enough, the meeting doesn't actually get arranged.

If it does, I find reasons to have this meeting as far in the future as possible. I am awkward at finding suitable dates and times. So many appointments. I am so slow at responding to texts and emails too. Often that spoils the impending drama for DM and the meeting never happens. Mostly she wants a quick fix of abusing her scapegoat to make herself feel better. Like a junkie. Delayed gratification is no good to her.

If the actual event is arranged and the day arrives: I don't go. I text at the appointed time with a crap excuse: the cat is sick, I feel sick (great one in pregnancy), tyre flat, etc. Or my personal favourite "oh, god! I completely forgot! I was in Primark trying on maternity trousers and my phone was switched off. I'm so sorry winged monkey."

You have to leave your sister to cope on her own. If she chooses to step away from your DM, that's her choice. I doubt very much that she would go NC with you.

Do you know, your Dad sounds just as toxic! It is his email, phone calls, text beating you up - apparently passing on the message and moans from your mother.

Quite often what happens afterwards is I get a nasty email or text from my dad saying I've upset mum by not making eye contact/ saying something in particular / not hugging her etc.

Does he not think he would be better suited to try and calm down the flames of your mothers irrational ire...tell her (however it works) to calm down. Whether by smiling and nodding, or smiling and telling her she is being silly, or telling her to shut up.

I have no doubt lots of parents talk about their grown up children behind their backs (just as we do when they are little and in bed). If your mother starts irrational bitching/moaning then OK, not great - but why the actual fuck does he feel the need to pass this moaning on? What does he hope to achieve by fuelling the flames? He should talk with your mother and then button it. He should not pass the burden of her warped mind on to you. An appalling way to behave.

I would seriously be thinking about opening your eyes to your father. Yes, maybe the route cause is your mother - but as PP have said - you father could and should have protected you from this.

Next time he sends you his version of your mother's vitriol/whining/we need to talk shit tell him no. In fact I am sure MNetters can come up with some optional responses - from polite to rude - you could take your pick. But you need to hit his messages straight back at him. Do not engage with them.

A starter

Dear Father, I am no longer prepared to read your critical, relationship-destroying messages. If you or mother have anything calm and constructive to discuss with me I am prepared to listen. If the only thing you have to say is to belittle me, criticise me or in any other way be unkind then I will either walk away, hang up the telephone or delete the message. I do not deserve unprovoked, unwarranted unkind comments. I will not tolerate them.

Thank you

pippin

OK - so it needs work - but have something ready to say/copy and paste and use it. Every. Single. Time.

Oh, and your dad may have had a shit childhood/no role model. That is very sad for him. Same with your mum. That does not mean you have to take the brunt of their poor emotional intelligence.

I had some pants stuff from my parents. I found myself worried about repeating history. I got counselling. I am aware of the behaviour patterns. I do everything in my power to change history and be a good parent. Not a mother like my mother. Not a critical parent like my father.

I am very cross on your behalf - so I am sorry if I am sounding a bit shouty . I want to stand between you and them and tell them to stop being so awful.

My friends mother a little like yours, dramatic, rages, weak enabling dh and son. She particularly upset my friend when she was pregnant with her first baby. Friends dh rang her up and said this has to stop and if you ever upset my wife again that's it no contact with us or grandchildren again end of.

Amazingly it worked - the mother is still annoying but power balance shifted she knows she cannot get away with it now a reasonable outsider has called her on her behaviour. No one had ever stood up to her before.

Jump and Twist I like you. We need more of your insight here.

Op, everyone is so wise here. Your sister may be able to see that you are not the problem here.

Oh OP I can relate to a lot of this, very similar relationship with my mum, though without the dad part, which makes it extra exhausting for you.

The stuff you say about the hugging and eye contact – I have that. It's excruciating but I can't do it and she tries to force me. Shudder! It's incredibly stressful and I really feel for you.

What I will say is you are doing bloody well. You've reduced contact to a minimum and you won't be alone with her, and it has helped. It is important to understand your own needs and what you can manage and act on that, for the sake of your own sanity – and that's what you've done.

So, I think you can do the same about the "talk" – just say you're not up for it. If dad accuses you of being selfish, yes – you are being selfish. Mum is selfish, and here you are, also thinking of your own needs. You don't wish to be burdened with the drama and put through stress. You're pregnant and your mum's need to have a drama with you is not your priority. Stop worrying about being selfish. If it's good enough for her, it's good enough for you.

My mum has been rude, hurtful and nasty to me for my entire life and I've always just taken it and not pulled her up on it because she would kick off so massively, wheel out the drama and cry about me being horrible. But I've recently thought "hang on... she's horrible! So why am I so scared of not being lovely?"

If your sister feels stuck in the middle, tell her you need to pull away and focus on your own family, but that doesn't apply to her and you want to be as supportive to her as ever. There is no "middle" except of your parents' making.

The one thing I would also add is in my experience, my feelings got a lot more upsetting and unavoidable when I was pregnant, and since having children. It has a big impact because it makes you re-evaluate the parent-child relationship. It is totally natural to feel wobbly in your situation, and you have to look after yourself and put yourself first.

Just say that you'd rather not. The end. No one has the right to demand more.

. Without going NC ,which you have explained you can't bring yourself to do, you are already doing all you can to minimise the effect your DM has on you.
Just remember that what this woman thinks, feels and wants out of life is of NO IMPORTANCE to you. If you could think of her as a complete irrelevance, which basically she already is, then perhaps she would cease to be able to hurt you.
It feels as though you think you HAVE to meet her. So now you need to develop strategies so that during this meeting you can protect yourself.

You can confront her of course as she sounds like a manipulative bully. However, I think that as you are pregnant, you need to stay calm and not rise to anything she says. It is not appeasing her, it is detaching yourself from her. You can listen to someone's words without hearing them.
and no one can do any thing to you with words unless you let them.

My heart goes out to you. Keep repeating to yourself 'I don't need you, I don't want you in my life, as she is speaking.
Also you only owe it to yourself to do things in your life that make you happy. You owe nothing to anyone else. Certainly not your sister and enabling Father.

YYY

Exactly what holeinthe said xx

God yes, being unable to make eye contact/hugging. I am exactly the same with my mother. Just can't do it.

She just came round. After probably two years since she 'just came round.' Fortunately I had a feeling it was her and told my husband I wasn't in and locked myself in the bathroom, preparing to sit there in the dark for hours if I needed to. She said she wanted to talk to me and husband said I wasn't in and could he take a message and she just said she wanted to talk to me. I had no warning she was coming round and now I feel I can't relax at home in case she just comes round again. I wish she would email or text so I could let her know I don't want any kind of drama. I should perhaps have been less pathetic and told her that tonight but I wimped out.

Actually, just avoiding/deflecting her as you did tonight is the best option - any sort of response on your part just adds fuel to the fire.

How would you feel about your husband playing 'gate-keeper.' I know as modern women we're not supposed to need this but it is bloody useful when you have a disfunctional/toxic family. Suggest you do not see your mum or if you must, on neutral turf with your dh present. Get him to answer the door/phone, block her from your mobile (there are ways of doing this so she won't know) and, most of all, get him to email your dad and tell him, in no uncertain terms, to back off.

I know you love him, but your dad is not your friend in this.

I would also advise you to think very carefully about how you are planning to protect your baby from these people. It's fine if you aren't yet in a place to say no to them but maybe your dh would do it for you? It is a word you'll be needing quite a lot over the next year.

Oh and do go and join the Stately Homes thread - it's quite a revelation when you recognise some of the feelings/situations the people on there describe.

Thanks barbarian. I just rang my sister to warn her that mum might be on her way round to hers and she told me that the reason mum wanted to see me was to tell me that she and dad are splitting up. Some mixed emotions on that one. Really hoping dad is ok. Kind of relieved, maybe thinking now dad can be involved more with the baby as I wouldn't have wanted mum to have much/any contact.

A little harsh but I'm afraid that if her daughter hides in the bathroom in the dark to avoid her, your mother has brought it on herself. That you feel the need to do that is absolutely not normal and it's not your doing, either. It's a response to her behaviour over years. You hide from people that you're afraid of.

Keep strong and keep distant.

You did the right thing. There is nothing wrong with hiding in the bathroom and as Meerka says, that says something bad about her, not you.

The splitting up news is a big thing and might take a while to sink in. But I think it's really important that your mum realises that you are not going to be her punchbag, drama enabler or parent figure.

It could also, of course, be a complete fabrication.

No it's not a fabrication, they're splitting up. I've known they are very unhappy together for a long while but dad has always been so adamant that he won't be apart from mum. I'm frightened for him. He hates being alone. They're both approaching 70 and I can't see dad starting again but maybe he will surprise us all. I've hardly slept for worry about it. Also thinking about the longer term impact on everyone.

pippinleaf,

I would still not feel sorry for your Dad because he has failed you here also as a parent. He has never cared enough about you to protect either you or your sister (and you do not owe her anything either, my guess is that she has always been far more favoured in any case) from his wife's mad excesses of behaviour. His role in this overall family of origin dysfunction is bystander.

I believe you when you state they are separating. Narcissistic women like your mother cannot do relationships at all. In a family situation where you have a Narcissistic Mother, you also need to have an Enabling Father. Many such weak men as well need someone to idolise. The only other possibilities are that the father is also narcissistic, or one who is gone. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. Their relationship was and still is a dysfunctional and enabling relationship.

An Enabling Father is one who panders to the Narcissistic Mother, who facilitates her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. One of his previous comments to you i.e. "well you know what she is like" basically showed you that protecting his own weak self was far more important than ever protecting you and your sister. He has basically acted throughout out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Your mother turning up at your home unannounced was again completely disregarding you and any boundary you care to set. I hope your DH gave her short shrift for doing so after two years of not bothering. It was all done by your mother to further create drama.

I would keep any children you go onto have well away from both your parents because they simply will not make for being good grandparent role models. After all they were inadequate as parents to you and your sibling themselves; they have left both of you emotionally damaged and for you in particular the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) is still very much present within you.

Do read and post on the Stately Homes thread.

It is NOT your fault your parents are the ways they are; you did not cause them to act like this.

Pippin. Concentrate on your pregnancy, your OH and YOU! Let them muddle through their own dramas. You don't need any of this especially right now.

what stupidhead says ... (gah, feels wrong typing that name!). Your priority is your baby. You've endured a lot from your parents, both their lives are their own, but your focus now is your baby and husband.

Seriously, I'd cut hef out. Explain to your sister why. You will have a baby of your own soon and do nit need this crap.

I have depression, it can be a selfish illness but she could just be a very selfush person. Sorry.

I think you did the right thing hiding; you'd have had to fill the role of comforter if you'd come out, and I bet she would have cried and made you feel terribly guilty for 'neglecting' her, poor soon-to-be lonely old woman that she is.....

As it is, you've avoided her attempt at emotional manipulation - well done.

I think I'd give her a call - that's as close as I'd want to get - and say that you're sorry to hear that and that you hope they are BOTH ok. Don't be drawn into 'your awful father' or 'I'm so dreadfully unhappy' conversations - don't argue, but don't agree either. I find 'Oh, DEAR' to be a useful filler, or 'oh, that is a shame' or 'oh, I didn't know that'. Keep your answers short, don't seek out anything other than factual information, don't try to defend yourself in the event of a jibe but instead hear the doorbell ringing and run off . Non-confrontational, but it lets you escape.

Alternatively, just refuse to see her and take the fallout. I personally favour my approach above because you're playing them at their own game and they actually end up slightly retrained if you're lucky, whereas option 2 leaves them even more firmly entrenched in their own arseness.