My mum wants 'to talk' - I'm feeling sick about it

[pippinleaf]

Won't bore you with all the details but I'm nearing 40 and have a very poor relationship/no relationship with my mum. She's been depressed since I was a baby and is very self centred. My father told me that her depression was my fault and my only memories of her are of crying, bit dramatic scenes etc. she used to read my diaries and drag me home from school to take me to task over bangs she'd read in them. She has cheated on my dad for long periods of time and myself and my sister thinks she still is. When my sister had her children my mum was so wrapped up in herself she didn't visit.

When she does see me she wants to create huge emotional scenes - she asks things like 'why don't you love me? Why won't you hug me? I know you hate me' etc. truth is, I don't love her, don't want to hug her and probably don't hate her but I certainly don't like her and want nothing to do with her. The only reason I contemplate a relationship with her and see her about four times a year is because I think it would hurt my sister, who maintains some kind of relationship with her, and my dad refuses to see me unless mum is there (he feels we should all be nice to mum because she's 'ill' and he seems himself as her guardian. He has told myself and my sister that he chose mum over us - fair enough.

I long ago promised myself I would not be in a room alone with her as she would always want a drama which I simply cannot handle. I have been to counselling several times over it and have concluded that our very distant relationship is all I can handle.

Dad is away at the moment, she refuses to go anywhere with him so he's gone alone, and has emailed this morning to say that mum wants to 'speak to me' and my sister. This has filled me with dread, fear and panic. This doesn't mean she wants a nice chat over tea, this means she wants another of her scenes - the last one ended with her telling me I was not allowed to socialise with a work colleague as my colleague is the same age as my mum and 'how do you think that makes me feel?!!!' (She's never allowed me to have friendships with older women as she feels I'm replacing her - which I probably am). I told her I didn't care and she stormed out. Some minutes later hammered on my door to continue to drama and I wouldn't answer.

She lives about twenty minutes away from my house. I'm married with our first baby on the way. I have a very close relationship with my sister who feels sorry for mum but also finds her very difficult.

I just don't know what to do. If I don't see her I'll get dad phoning / emailing me saying I'm selfish. I will get my sister crying saying she feels stuck in the middle. If I see her I will feel physically ill for the time leading up to the meeting and I can see no purpose to seeing her other than to set a stage for her drama.

I simply don't know what to do. Assuming I see her, what can I say? I can listen to whatever emotional crap she wants to come out with but I can't say whatever she wants me to say back. My husband doesn't really know her as we've been distant since before I met him. Hs family are 'normal' and he is sympathetic but doesn't understand.

Help!

Reading with interest, as there's some fantastic advice here, and I'm in a similar situation with my DM, so I feel for you.

I had a lot of therapy to deal with my toxic mother, and a few things occurred to me while reading your story. I do agree with the poster who said your DSis and DF are letting you bear the brunt, and bullying you this way, but wonder if they are so hurt/consumed by her malicious behaviour that they will do anything to be 'good' in her eyes - to win her approval? So their persuading you to remain in contact is them winning her approval - or trying to? It's that triangle - persecutor, victim, martyr. Your DM moves between roles, depending on the reaction she gets, like a chameleon. She's driven by her need to 'get' something from you (and others) which they can't/won't provide, (probably quite rightly!) and she won't stop to think about the morality of her behaviour - she's running on animal instinct.

Can you bring yourself to pity her? For me, pity takes the sting out of the hurt my DM inflicts. If you decide to meet with her, it might help you through?

I hope she doesn't upset you too much, and that you can look after yourself - your mother isn't your responsibility.

As you are pregnant, it makes it ten times worse that they are trying to lead you by the nose in this. I agree with PPs your sister and father are almost as bad. Just because you will 'dilute' her is not reason to expose you to her toxicity.
Be firm in saying no now and you can protect your DC from her in the future. You will not be being weak by doing this, you will be being strong but they will still continue their abuse of you. Stay strong and resolute. Just because she is related to you, doesn't mean you have to roll over and appease her. she sounds like she has serious MH issues but that is not your fault/problem. Your DD and DSis are definitely enablers here. Given the choice I bet they would get rid of her from their lives too but don't have the balls!

Do visit the Stately Homes thread on these pages and read the resources at the start of that thread, particularly Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

Your mother will simply use such a loaded meeting as a stick to further bash you with. No such meeting should ever take place, even in a public setting. It will not go at all well for you.

Goodness only knows why your sister lets your mother look after her children albeit once a week. Her relationship though with her mother is hers to deal with, not yours to carry for her. Your sister is not stuck in the middle here, not at all.

It is NOT your fault your family of origin are all dysfunctional; people from families end up playing roles. Your Dad's role in all this is one of enabler; he actively chose his wife over you and your sister and that role continues to this day. I would not let him off the hook at all; he being a weak man has acted purely out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He likely also uses your mother as someone to idolise. Your sister is likely to be more favoured and is using the usual ways (emotional blackmail) to try and control your responses as well.

You need to build upon and maintain boundaries. Counselling for your own self may help you; you however need to find a therapist that has NO bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Your parents were inadequate when raising you and your sister and they will now also make for being poor grandparents as well. Such people do not change.

I would also keep all your family of origin well away from any children you go onto have. They will not get anything at all positive from that relationship either. You do not so why would any child. If you find them too difficult/toxic to deal with they are far too toxic for your both vulnerable and defenceless child.

You need to be strong for your DH and your baby. I'm another one who had a 'difficult' parent who liked to manipulate and cause a drama with plenty of anger thrown into the mix.

When I had my own children, the relationship changed as I decided I wouldn't put up with it any more. Of course one feels guilty, but at the end of the day, your own baby and husband come first, and you really shouldn't feel guilty.

to you, as it is hard work. In the present situation I would say don't see her and don't allow your Dad and sister to lay the guilt trip on you, as it isn't your fault your mum is the way she is.

I like Turquoise's approach - if you do go ahead with a meeting, take your DH to protect you. Either she will be calmer with him there, which is a positive, or she will show her true colours to him, and at least he will understand more directly what's going on.

Would still not meet up under any circumstances nothing good will come of it. Your mother only wants to meet you to cause yet another scene, you will come off far worse from such an encounter.

I think OP if you came on here for 'permission' to bin off your mother, you just got it. Unanimously.

Your father's behaviour has been unacceptable, too.

pippin I think you need to keep well clear of this meeting.

You will be prioritizing yourself in the healthy sort of way and especially with being pregnant you don't need this at all. Take care of yourself.

Regarding your sister it's more difficult but I think you have to stand strong and say 'Im sorry that it's making things harder for you but I cannot be drawn back into this'.

Regarding yoru father - well, he chose her over you two. He said that, outright. He blamed you for her depression . He made his choice, didn't he? You can tell him as much, too.

Could be guessing too far here but it's possible that actually you feel pretty sad about him that he isn't a strong father for you, that he's put your very selfish and dramatic mother first. He hasn't been a good father, and maybe you're still wanting to think of him as loving when any love that's come your way has been the leftover seconds.

I am in a very similar situation and have finally (a year ago) cut off my parents. My father also tried hard to emotionally blackmail me into putting up with my mother's despicable behaviour towards me. Why? To save himself the bother of dealing with it. What kind of father uses their own child as a human shield? Cos that is what yours has done to you.

Luckily my DSIS completely supports me in this and has told my parents so, and I am sure it would be a lot harder for me if she did not.

You do not owe your father anything. He has let you down in the most hideous way and he most certainly DOES deserve whatever comes his way in the fallout from this as it is a situation of his own making.

Time for you to get angry here.

He did not have to choose your mother over his own children. He could have divorced her and looked after you instead. He chose to put himself first. Well, now it's your turn to put yourself first.

Do not prioritise your parents or sister over the wellbeing of your own family unit. Do not see your mother. Tell your sister that her choice to have a relationship with your mother is exactly that - HER choice. You do not have to be held to ransom over it.

I could have written much of your op. I think Firstname has got it bang on.

I'd refuse point-blank to meet her, but arrange a later meeting with all 3 of your family (maybe don't tell them they will all be together or they'll smell a rat - invite your mum+dad and sister individually).

You then tell them all that you are sick of being the focus of her vitriolic abuse and that you are not going to put up with it anymore. You don't have to and don't want to.

Trust me, you will not want her hovering around the edges when your baby is born, pretending to be the devastated grandmother with a cruel daughter.

Alternatively, send an email/letter to all three of them so that they all receive it simultaneously. You've got to cut through this 'talking to each other about each other' crap. All it does is keep the cycle going.

Ready for this?

Don't go.

Change your phone number and email address.

Have a few years off to recover. Minimum two years. If anything happens to them in that time, remind yourself that they had a choice, they could have treated you reasonably.

My mum died this year. Most people only remember the good things about her. Not me. I remember being a new mum and her phoning issuing her instructions and demanding to speak to the midwife, who was with me at the time. I remember the midwife mouthing to me 'Say 'No' and put the phone down'.

That's the way to go.

Stall. Tell her you've got D&V and under midwife's orders to stay in bed and sleep. Then switch off your phone.

Don't go anywhere without your husband. Great advice if he is willing to back you up.

Remind yourself, there are therapies, there is medication. You don't have to spend your life being abused by someone who won't help themself.

I think you should reply to your dad's email with more or less exactly what you have written in your op.

Tell him that you prioritise your dh and your baby over him and your mother (just as he told you he prioritises his wife over you and your sister), because you do not have a good relationship, it only causes you tension and stress and always has done.

Cc your sister if you like.

I agree with the pp who said your sister & your father are using you to make their relationship with your mum easier. You are all using each other as an emotional support against something that you can't cope with alone, which you shouldn't have to do!

You say your father chose your mother over you - this is NOT fair enough, still, he made that choice, not you! He has to live with that & if that means he has to get stick from her because you don't visit, so be it. Sorry!

I would refuse to carry on allowing this drama in my life. I have been NC with my mother for 20+ yrs, and it was the best thing I did op. No one needs that kind of drama in their lives.

This isn't unusual when there's a difficult person in the family. Other relatives always pressure you to see them and it can look like they just want everyone to get on. I think what's really going on is that they want to share the burden of the difficult relative. It's easier for them and gives them a break. It's not coincidence that your dad is away at the moment

As hard as it is I'd go with what others suggest and tell your dad and sister to stop. They are both manipulating you. Would it be possible to maintain a relationship with your sister if you did this ?

Pippin it's up to you, but I wouldn't go. You don't need to up the drama though, you could just say 'I have morning sickness at the moment and don't want to meet up at present' and then just leave it. You don't need to say 'I'm never speaking to you again' although your mum would deserve it!

You have had some excellent advice on this thread, especially about letting the other people (dad, sister) know that you don't want to be involved any further. As I say, you can keep this low key if you want, but be clear you are not available as an emotional punch-bag at present.

You need to do this now otherwise the sense of dread once the baby is born is going to be 100 times worse and so probably will be her behaviour. Start as you mean to go on, distant, strong boundaries and if she oversteps them, I would seriously think about no contact at all, this is just too upsetting and awful and you have done nothing to deserve this.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to think about me and reply with such insightful and detailed comments, I've read them all very carefully. It's obvious that there is a lot of experience amongst you all and compassion.

Most of you are saying that I should not have contact with mum and, if she weren't with dad or I had no sister I would completely do that. I know that if I were to have no contact at all then I would also be choosing not to see my dad and I would deeply upset my sister. I have no relatives at all apart from these three and I'm very close to my sister and her wonderful two children. I would hate to lose that from my life.

I see that my Dad does enable my Mums behaviour but I honestly don't think he's doing it with bad intentions. He was brought up to be 'dutiful' and in his mind he's married mum and owes it to her to be the best husband he can be and in a weird way I think that by sticking to her, despite everything, he is doing that. He was quite hands-off when we were growing up which is a generational and learnt thing - his dad was in the navy and rarely home so he never saw a dad who was around or showed affection. He has, rarely, said something like 'I know she's difficult,' or 'you know what your mum is like.'

When I did once open up to him about how I felt he said that it was a daughters duty to see her mum, because he saw his mum even though he 'didn't always enjoy it.' I've reminded him of how many times he told me mums depression was my fault and he either denies saying it or says 'I'm sure I didn't mean it like you've taken it.' She didn't have postnatal depression, she had mental health issues before I was even born. When she was going through a bad episode he would look for a reason and often that reason was me. I didn't ever truly believe it was my fault but it hurt that he wanted to say that and it hurt that mum never corrected him.

I'd really appreciate your responses on a few questions I have as you obviously have good understanding and ideas.

At the moment i see her about four times a year for a short time in the context of a whole family gathering (eight of us including children). I can tolerate that so long as I'm not left alone with her and so long as there's not a scene - which there usually isn't. Quite often what happens afterwards is I get a nasty email or text from my dad saying I've upset mum by not making eye contact/ saying something in particular / not hugging her etc. however I can handle this as it just fuels my belief that not seeing her more often is the right thing to do. I see my dad the same amount of times. There is no phone or other contact between us. Dad will text every now and again. I see my sister every other week.

This for me is manageable even though I get worked up in the days leading up to a meeting and following it. However it's enough to appease my sister which is what makes it worth it for me. But, every now and again it all blows up.

Is it possible to maintain this very low key contact without the blow ups? What do I do if I'm asked outright why I won't see them more? If dad tells me that the past has gone and mum 'wants to make an effort' how do I justify still not wanting to? (I know nothing will change) how do I answer possible questions about 'why are you denying us the chance to be grandparents?'

And you're totally right - there's NO way I'd expose my daughter to the behaviour of either of them on their own. I have no idea why or how my sister allows it. She's never been 'the bad one' so she has different experiences and she hides stuff they've done and said from me as she doesn't want me to dislike them any more than I do.

Thank you to anyone who is still here at the end of this. I can't tel you how much help it has been to get this out there. Thank you for the and listening. Big and to all of you x

"Is it possible to maintain this very low key contact without the blow ups?"

No, because these blow-ups of your mother's are nothing to do with you directly. You're just the convenient object to inflict it all on.

"What do I do if I'm asked outright why I won't see them more? If dad tells me that the past has gone and mum 'wants to make an effort' how do I justify still not wanting to?"

See, the thing is, you don't have to justify it. Not to them, not to anyone. Ever. Getting into a conversation or discussion about your lack of contact only allows them to cross-examine and browbeat you some more, with a bit of guilt on top for good measure. This is an extremely good reason for telling them that you are tolerating as much contact as you can bear but this is subject to change at a moment's notice.

"(I know nothing will change) how do I answer possible questions about 'why are you denying us the chance to be grandparents?'"

This is why telling the pair of them to fuck off and leave you alone permanently, forever and then blocking phone calls and emails is often simpler all round. If you went completely no contact you wouldn't be having thoughts like this, they would taking none of your head-space whatsoever. And you wouldn't be dreading your mother's second-hand summons "to talk" ever again. What bliss!

Okay - I would seriously suggest you read a book about Toxic families, and start to think about the roles you and your sister have been cast in.

You sister sounds like what I think has been called "the golden child" whereas you are the "scapegoat". In some ways the bonds that bind your sister are just as bad as the ones for you, and very hard to break.

After all your Mum wasn't nice to you, so its relatively straightforward to say you don't want your children to have to deal with that or be influenced by her. For your sister, it wasn't that bad - so why wouldn't she accept her mum looking after her kids?

BTW from what you've said about your Dad it does sound as if he could be quite damaged too. Just look at his childhood.

Have you ever had counselling? Quite often things from our childhood can resurface when we have children, so now might be a good time to deal with stuff.

Yes. I've had three bouts of counselling over it including counselling to enable me to overcome this block and conceive myself. Each block of counselling sessions was incredibly difficult for me and I couldn't seem to move on from feeling terribly guilty about it and found it hard to hear the counsellors saying that my mum was at fault. I felt they shouldn't criticise her as they don't know her and she wasn't there to defend herself. I realise that's messed up. More recent counselling sessions were more about not trying to 'fix' anything but leave it behind and accept things as they are.

I've spoken to my sister tonight and explained how anxious and ill the email has left me feeling. She feels there are new issues between mum and dad and that both of them are looking for some drama elsewhere to detract from what's going on between them. Plus I suspect mum likes it when dad 'comes to her rescue' when she creates drama so if there are issues between them it's her way of seeking reassurance that he loves her.

I would love to go completely no contact. I am envious of people who have done that and wish there would be a really terrible incident that would warrant me announcing my response in that way. Given that she lives effectively down the road, seeing her four times a year and not hearing from her in between isn't bad going! If my sister could reassure me that I wouldn't lose her, I would do it. She's all the family I have and I love her and her children very much.

I will read the books that people have recommended. It's been so reassuring to hear that this situation is perhaps more 'normal' than I thought.

You will most likely find that the reason you are seeking to go no contact will occur when your baby is born. The desire to protect your baby from the emotional abuse you have suffered ( and what you don't want continued with your own children).

I went no contact for twenty years. I am an only child and have no other known family. It was hard but protecting my babies was the only thing that mattered.

Your family sounds like mine

No dad but my aunt makes me feel very guilty regarding nc with my mother.

Nc was the best thing for me (I feel much more stable, I don't have that sense of impending doom when I see her number flash up on my phone! I have been able to stop smoking)

For me the final straw was last year I was pregnant and she put my dn & dn in a very unsafe situation (but my db really should never have left the kids with her) she has not met dd, prior to this incident everyone was trying to get me to spend more time with her in the hope I & dd would have a real relationship with her.
I think part of this is it also takes the pressure off them a little as it's someone else to carry the load. But I feel very much that I don't like her as a person I would not choose to have her in my life if she were not my mother and most of all I DO NOT wish to expose dd to her unless absolutely necessary.

What do you want for your family? I wanted a happy stable life for my kids having someone who is toxic negative and self absorbed makes that very difficult.

actually building on what mummytime said ... the whole family thing tends to become much sharper around the time of pregnancy, birth and the first months / couple of years. Weighs more heavily on the mind.

Second everything bitter said. You can't avoid the blowups. Drama queens love them. If it wasn't this it would be something else.

You don't have to justify anything. If you say calmly "this is my decision, I'm afraid it's not open to discussion" she may well blow up. Same response to the 'why won't you allow us to be grandparents' question and perhaps the same reaction. But you are standing your ground calmly and without getting drawn into an argument. This is the best possible way of handling it if you remain in contact at all.

You may want to consider asking your father to stop communicating with you about her. He has made his choice, very clearly. He has to respect yours - particularly as he put you two last. I really think you should tell him to butt out. Again, you can say it calmly and without heat, but firmly. He may disagree but he will have to respect your position. If it absolutely comes down to it, you could tell him that if he keeps on guilt tripping you, you'll block him from sms. I've seen this situation before btw at close quarters (though not directly involved) and it leaves a sour, sour taste when one person guilts another like this.

I'm sorry, got the feeling you don't really want to face this, but your father has acted very badly indeed towards you. Blaming you is a very bad way of handling his wife's mental health problems. Guilting you is also a mean trick.

Again, keep calm and neutral in dealing with them. Unload to your sister and partner afterwards if you have to.