Relationship problem, is it me? What can I do?

[UnacceptableWidge]

I considered name-changing for this as I'm pretty sure my DH knows my username, but it isn't as if this problem is something he isn't aware of.
I don't want to write out a ten page OP so will try and be as brief as possible and get to the essence of what is wrong.

This is NOT a post about domestic violence, btw, nobody within our household is being physically abused. There is a problem though and I cannot decide that DH changes his behaviour so am after advice on how I deal with it, as I think I must have been approaching everything the wrong way for it to have become so bad I am considering us living separate lives.

My DH is miserable.

He moans, nags, criticizes and generally gives off a negative vibe which then effects the whole household.

He does not recognize this, states he is fine with no issues.

He has always been a bit of a glass half empty kind of person but the demands of life and a family have made him more of a 'glass is cracked and chipped, half empty with dirty water' kind of person. Any conversation about the way his attitude disrupts anyone else's life is met with "This is how I am, how I've always been. A person can't change who they are"

Recently we have had 2 incidents where his outlook has culminated in an aggressive outburst.
The first was with our DS(18). He has been going through a, hopefully quite common, phase of feeling that because he is an'adult' and has his own income, he no longer needs to be bound by the rules of the house. DS is not a morning person nor am I.
DH used to leave the house early but is now leaving later. Morning used to be relatively calm. As calm as they can be when getting 5 DC ready and out of house.
DHs way of 'helping' in the morning is to constantly nag. Nobody he tells to do anything is given more than 2 minutes to do it before they are told again and again and again Last week DS snapped at being told to put all his meat on his sandwich (bought with his own money) and the 2 of them went for each other. Myself and DS3 intervened and they both went off to work angry leaving the rest of the family stressed and upset.

The second was just last night. DH collected DD (8) and I from a concert.
In the heavy traffic an arsehole taxi driver almost hit our car while attempting to bully his way into line of traffic after noticing too late that his lane was closed. We both commented that he was out of order and I took his plate number and council number to report him.
Shortly after a car literally shot out of a junction to get into lane we were in at lights. We were moving very slowly and it was clear that this person was not about to wait to be let in, he barely looked at oncoming traffic either.
DHs response was to speed up then shout and swear while slamming on brakes.
I was seething as DD was screaming in the back seat and worried that the other driver (who had windows open and was shouting at DH) would come and tell us off. She was upset by a second incident within a fortnight where she has experienced the frustrations of her dad coming out in such an unusual and aggressive manner.

I am certain these two outbursts are a reflection of a deep unhappiness (not depression) combined with his reassurance, to himself, that his misery is an innate personality trait.
He does not chat, talk, unload to anyone that I am aware of about any stress he is under. Conversations with one of his oldest friends are hour long chats on phone about football with a 2 minute how's the family? great how's yours? tagged onto the end.
He chats regularly to his DF but would never discuss the family or anything particularly negative with him.

I have suggested counselling but feel he is reluctant to do this.

I cannot live with this anymore. We have had countless conversations about how unhappy I am but I don't think he realizes just how much his behaviour is dragging me down.
I do not want to come home from work.
I am exhausted trying to get him to see my point of view.
I am tired of walking away and not intervening when our DC are being berated for something minor, while they are doing ten thousand things to try and please him.
I find it very difficult not to say 'I told you so' now that the eldest 2 DS have stopped trying (I warned about 5 years ago that if they were constantly criticized, nagged and basically told they weren't good enough they would quit trying)

I fantasize about the life of a single parent...how can that be a fantasy for anyone!!!!

Has anyone else had this in their family? If so, how did you deal with it?
How can I encourage him to see what we see, address his problems and get back the DH I had years ago?
I know I am not a perfect human being btw, who is? I am quite sure I am no picnic to live with, yet I genuinely believe that I do not have any power here to change the environment within our household.
I am at a total dead end.

Sorry that was as short as I could make it within needing to dripfeed later. I hope somebody can offer me someone some wisdom and advice?

Hopefully the counselling your DH begins will be help to make your home life less stressful ishould
The marriage guidance does sound like a good idea the more I think about it. Like I say we have gotten into some really bad communication habits because this has been an ongoing issue for so long. It can't make things any worse and something has to be done.

I really appreciate the help. The whole thing is still crap but we have a child-free day tomorrow so be a good opportunity to suggest it.

Am going to look at ways to access it now.

Hi.
Just an little update and probably my last post on this.
Asked DH today what he thought was next. Where we go from here. What do each of us need to do.

His response was that he didn't know. He said he knew things had to change because I've told him the marriage won't continue if thing carry on. Then he waited for me to say something. Neither of us spoke for a few minutes (that felt like an hour, I always fill silences!)
After nothing was said for possibly 3 minutes (doesnt sound very long but it was excrutiating) I said what or who needs to change. He said that he thought maybe he did and he's going to try and adjust his behaviour heard that one before
I said we were probably over then. That he'd 'tried' before. I asked what he thought was going to happen if we hasn't spoken and he didn't respond. Just a shoulder shrug.

I was very frustrated during this conversation. It felt so long with so many silences and blank states at me. I'm not responsible for anyone's behaviour but mine.

I told DH that I felt he was going through the motions carrying on with daily life and waiting for someone else to magically alive what was going wrong in our home. That is never going to happen. I said I was all out of ideas, sick of trying, fed up of the way it is and refusing to sit back and wait for anything else to happen as a result of his frustrations at things not being the way he expects them to be.

He left the room and returned a good while later to tell me he has arranged to see a counsellor.

Maybe marriage counselling is something we may look at in the future, maybe it is something his counsellor might suggest but either way, it feels positive. At the very least I'm hoping it will get him to find another way to let out his emotions rather than an angry explosion!!

I had this problem with my dh, the thing is I accepted that his treatment of me and dc was actually abusive.

Once I accepted that, and it was a huge shock to realise that that was what was happening, I was able to move forward.
The shock by the way was physical. I got panic attacks and moments of feeling like I was mad.

I was able to talk to my dh, I gave him an ultimatum that we couldn't stand it. He started his own therapy and after a while I started mine.

He now understands what was going on. He was depressed and taking it out on us. Constant criticism, dreadful rows, walking on eggshells, afraid of setting him off, blaming me and dc for all his miseries.

It was a slow route, but the best thing both of us ever did (therapy).

In the midst of all the horror (before I realised what was going on) we tried relationship counselling.
It made things worse.
It's not appropriate for your problems either I suspect.

Sorry to say but it sounds like lip service.
As in you can't complain while he's seeing a counsellor.

I do think you will be better off separating temporarily, while he is counselled and then decide if things have improved enough to get back.

basically told they weren't good enough they would
Of course you have to tell kids to pick up after themselves and respect house rules. But.. you don't put them down and tell them they aren't good enough. That is horrible, soul destroying and will ensure they have very low self esteem.

Your update is 'kind of' positive I guess.
He's willing to try counselling for himself so that's a step in the right direction. As long as he books it and takes responsibility for it and doesn't pass it over to you to sort out. That won't be a good thing!

I really hope it helps to improve things for you.

This should have been done years ago, op. It's so much harder to address this when you are both worn to the bone with it.

It does sound like he has internalised his dictatorial upbringing. He'll have to face that and work through it in therapy, which will be painful for him... not to mention long winded. He may well be like a bear with a sore head.

Can you take that? On top of everything else? Couples counselling will be very painful for you Unacceptable, going over it all, when you're already worn right down. I can't help agreeing with 2times that you may be better off having separate therapy?

Thanks, I feel it is a positive step. It's a good bloody start that he arranged it himself.

I can't know how he will be while he has counselling, and whether or not the family can cope with that. We'll have to see how it goes.

I am certainly not going to decide that it is "lip service" before he has even started a single session lweji nor am I going to leave while he has counselling. Should things either get worse or not improve, then yes, I'd have to consider that.

Thanks for the input re:couple's therapy. I would never have imagined that could make anything worse but it's good to know. I'll bear that in mind if it is ever suggested and perhaps arrange individual sessions for myself if needed.

Ah, I realise my post was bleak and not very positive. I'm so sorry about that, you could do with some encouragement. Sorry op.

It is good he's arranged counselling himself. I assume this is a huge step so it's definitely something to feel hopeful about. Don't let him drop off though - it's common, human nature, to get through the crisis and then think 'nah, I'm not so bad, I'll be fine - it wasn't that bad, anyway'. He has form for that so don't let him: this is crunch time, he can't kid himself any more, kidding time has run out. (That point has to be laboured, sorry)

I do wish you - and the kids - all the best with this. For better for worse eh - you'll have a tale to tell when you finally, at last, hoorah, break through

Thanks daffs

I'm confused. Did he go and arrange counselling in the few minutes he was out of the room after your talk? You said 'he left the room and a good while later returned to say he had arranged counselling.'

How did he do this so soon? Usually it takes quite a while to choose a counsellor- did he say who he is seeing and where? I'd just b suspicious that he had actually set it all up and wasn't saying what you want to hear.

What worries me is that when you gave him a kind of ultimatum, he wasn't full of shock and despair at losing you, but seemed quite calm about the whole scenario.

I hope you find out more about who is seeing, how often and so on.

I am concerned that he hasn't addressed any of the issues with you. He refused to talk about it, but we went away, booked counselling (supposedly) and left at that.
Even if he will have counselling, you don't know what he is talking about. He's not making any commitment to change with you. He hasn't acknowledged what the problems are.
And there is a real danger that every time you call him on anything, he'll come back with "I'm having counselling, what else do you want?".
See how it goes, but I would need to see changes sooner rather than later.

Well yes, and we could get run over by a bus etc.

Its going in the right direction, folks. These things take time, particularly as there's a big backlog. I'm sure you're resolute op: you've had enough.

What are your boundaries right now? What will happen if there is another outburst? How long are you going to give him?

Thanks for the concern pinkfrocks and lweji but as I said I am happy and confident that him arranging counselling is a step in the right direction and something that, had it been done years ago, might not have seen things turn out the way they have.

I haven't put a timeframe on anything and think my boundaries are clear enough.

Obviously I have posted snapshots of a situation that has spanned quite a chunk of time and have given you an overall picture of our conversations etc. Sorry if this hasn't all been wrapped up quickly enough for you.

Again sorry for not detailing the deer in the headlights looks, the lip quivering, the drain of colour from his face. My posts would be too excruciatingly long to write and ridiculously long to read probably if I had given you a step by step breakdown of everything but I know this is the start of a change, which I am hoping is for the better.

Haven't totally finished the thread, but I was wondering if a starting point for your DH would a course of vitamin B complex. I'm as much against domestic violence as the next person, but there have been times when I have been close to it and vitamin B has saved my sanity of my dd's physical integrity.

Taken orally it takes about three weeks to feel its effects, but gosh it is good for the nerves.

I suppose I wonder what he will say in counselling. It will be just his side of things. Success in counselling requires the client to ask for help and have some understanding of knowing why they are there. Does he acknowledge his behaviour? That has to be the start.
Do you know who he is seeing? I hope that in the time he was away from you he went to the BACP website and chose a well qualified counsellor - or perhaps Relate?

I think it would be better for you to have couples' counselling because this is not just about him it's about the dynamics of your marriage.
You need to be actively part of counselling too , to explain how his behaviour impacts on you. I don't see the point in him going alone, unless he's focusing on one aspect of behaviour like irritability or anger.

This is exactly why Domestic Violence has been re-categorised as Domestic Abuse. I'm sorry to say this but you sound like a lot of women who I work with who will go to the ends of the earth to say "it's not like I'm a beaten wife".

What he is doing is controlling you by letting his mood dominate the mood of the entire household. It seems clear to me that his mental health isn't the best at the moment. To me your choices are simple he either gets some help and things improve or he doesn't and things never change. You either chose to live with that or don't.

To me your choices are simple he either gets some help and things improve or he doesn't and things never change. You either chose to live with that or don't.
Well, yes, that's where we are now isn't it? He has sought help, we will see if things improve.

It's a counsellor's job to oink out salient issues. Have some faith in the process here mnetters. Op needs to see how it goes, there's not much more she can do at the mo, the process is going to take time. You could, however, get counselling for yourself and also family therapy at some stage - unfortunately, because this situ is longstanding it will have impacted on the kids.

I appreciate you're feeling got at on here by the naysayers op. I'm not at all sure he is an abuser - abusive traits by default do not necessarily make an abuser. It could be argued we all have abusive traits that need addressing, his have become impacted because they've gone on a long time. Perhaps he'd be as relieved as anybody that there's a way to address this for everyone's benefit, not least his own.

Sorry if I sound too sceptical, but I have been through the promises and the contrite look.
I do hope he does manage to improve substantially, but it doesn't sound likely from your description of how he didn't address the issues with you, but rather went away (never mind quivering lips - I had suicide threats, it means nothing).

It's good that you have boundaries and important that they are set in stone.
It is easy to start pushing them and for us to let go because it wasn't a big thing, but then they start moving and moving until we are back where we started.
Make sure you have a plan and know what you will do if those boundaries are crossed. Even if a little bit.
From experience.

I don't feel got at daffs I fully appreciate that we all come on to these threads with our own experience and each poster wants to use their own history as a lesson to OPs asking for help. I like that about MN, no actually, I love that.

I came on here to ask for the benefit of other's advice and that's exactly what I'm being given. I really do thank everyone who has taken the time to give me an idea of what did or didn't work for them. I think lweji, pinkfrocks and a couple of others are trying to encourage me to see all the possibilities. To not look at things through rosé-tinted glasses and to ensure I remain steadfast in not letting anything return to the way it has been.
That is what I want. To remain aware of how it has been. To be confident that a change has to be made.

My posts have probably been coming across as a bit protective of DH but that is because I, obviously, know a hell of a lot more than I have gone into here. I know that DH has arranged counselling. I know that was a really really big step for him. I am solid on this being a last ditch attempt to save our marriage.

I have reached this point with the strength and support I have received from this thread and I don't mind if some of the posts are on the cynical side because it helps to have a rounded view.

I am quietly hopeful.

Thank you to all for taking the time to offer your own wisdom and experience