Difficult relationship with mother just need to get it off my chest!

[Fuzzyfelt123]

Hi - I'm a regular reader of brilliant Mumsnet advice but haven't posted for a while. I've always had a difficult relationship with my mother and posted about it on here a few years ago. I received some brilliant insight and advice then which really helped me. However, I've lost my way a bit lately.
My mum has very definite narcissic tendencies. She's very self absorbed, often ill, highly critical of my dad, has cut off her own family and is highly critical of my dad's family (who are all lovely). She has hardly any friends and any clubs she joins she soon leaves after falling out with someone. It's never her fault. She says that she had a difficult upbringing with a bullying brother and parents who ignored the bullying and idolised the brother. She's never got over it and she does admit this and also admits that she's 'damaged'. I think she takes this anger and hurt out on other people, and has done as long as I've known her. She's never been physically abusive, but as I said above, verbal abuse and criticism trips off her tongue with ease. She's never cuddled me or my siblings and never told us she loves us,
(Thanks for reading so far!)
Anyway, I think MathAnxiety spotted that I detached from her at an early age. I've never confided in her and our relationship is Ok as long as we stick to subjects she likes, and she's not criticised. Lately though, I've run out of patience with her I think for 2 reasons

1. my DD is at an age where I'm worried she will influence her badly. I've told DD very tactfully to be wary of that GM sometimes says unkind things about other people. She immediately replied 'oh yes i'll never forget that GM said she wished her brother dead'. Am I overreacting or is this a terrible thing to think, let alone say to a child? On the few occasions I've dared to pick my mum up over I unkind things she's said she calls me 'childish' like I want to live in some sort of utopia.
2. her Health is getting worse, I can see it coming that she will need more help soon. She can't walk very far. I need to be sympathetic but I can't bring myself to step up to this role. I think it's mostly self inflicted. I haven't seen or spoken to her for a couple if weeks, since I pulled her up on something. She accused me of 'always going for the jugular' and I stormed off, which I've never done before. It was a fairly trivial thing that I pulled her up on (shouting at my dog) and I should just pop round and apologise and it would blow over. But it just don't feel like it this time. I don't like her. Of course, although it's nice to be away from her at the moment, my conscience is torturing me. I should like my mum, it should be easy to love her, it should be easy to have a healthy family life (I have this with my own DH and DC) but I still feel it's my fault. Even though I know that it's her family that did this to her, and not many other people like her. Sorry for the rant! Just had to get if off my chest.

Actually therés no rule to say you have to like unlikeable people. She sure doesn't sound very likeable. Depending on the situation you may have some degree of duty towards her, but not at the expense of going under and drowning.

Re your DD, it sounds like she clearly knows what her grandmother's like but yes, it's worth keeping a wary eye. If she starts being critical of your DD, then maybe draw your daughter back from the situation if you can. Hyper criticism in the teen years can be devastating :s

About the wishing someone dead - I don't think you can help how you feel. But you can help what you do about, in this case 1) dwelling on it and 2) speaking it aloud. That's absolutely not appropriate.

About her need for help. How far can SS be asked to help? I'm afraid that if you have to, you might be best off trying to find other means of helping her that being close to her yourself. If she's pushed you to the bloody limit, she's rather reaping the results of her actions.

Having said that, it'd be hard to leave her actually hungry or filthy. Maybe go and help with the things she genuinely can't help herself with but keep it as short as you can and leave without engaging. Keeping neutral when she starts bitching, for example, and simply leaving more quickly.

"I should like my mum,"

I really don't think that's a given. Relatives IMHO are pretty random. We don't choose them, they don't choose us and it's sheer pot luck if we happen to get along. I'm amazed so many people do tbh.

I can sympathise with a lot of what you've written and recognise a lot of the character traits, behavioural patterns... even the dodgy background is familiar. My DM is also sick and getting worse.

I think you should be less concerned about your DD than you are currently. Children are incredibly unsentimental when it comes to character assessment. Your DD appears to have the measure of granny and does not seem to find her bizarre statements distressing. I would personally find that reassuring.

For yourself... do whatever you are comfortable doing. Do what makes you feel good. If that means being more sympathetic, that might be what you do. If it means having more 'jugular' moments, don't hold back. (I never do) There is no Book Of Judgement moment at the Pearly Gates.... as long as you are happy with the decisions you make and the actions you take, that's all that matters. You only ever have to answer to yourself.

Thank you for your quick replies. You're both right. I need to keep lowish contact in order for this relationship to 'work'. The result of being brought up by someone like this though is that you always doubt your own judgement, I'm often not sure if I've done the right thing, constantly analysing myself to make sure I'm treating people properly. My worst fear is turning out like her.
And when I do stand up to her or think badly of her, I feel like I'm behaving like her! Thanks for your reassurances about my DD - she does seem v level headed about it, her fathers influence I think. I guess I may be projecting my fears onto her as my mum was critical of me (and everyone') as a teenage. Just remembered she wanted to take me to a psychiatrist at the age DD is now because of my 'difficult' (ie normal teenage) behaviour!

Loads of sympathy OP. What you need to do - and it won't be easy - is to let go of 'should' and think 'what do I want?'. You're already on your way - you acknowledge that you don't like your mother (lots of us on here feel the same about our mothers), you don't feel that you want to take on further caring duties. You sound quite worn out by her behaviour and I'm not surprised at all. People like your mother (and mine, and my MIL!) are unbelievably draining. There's a huge weight of expectation and obligation hanging over your head all the time, a constant sense that you 'should' be doing more, even if you have no idea what that actually is.

'The result of being brought up by someone like this though is that you always doubt your own judgement, I'm often not sure if I've done the right thing, constantly analysing myself to make sure I'm treating people properly'

Absolutely spot on. You have a very good awareness of what is going on here and you are already on the way to putting yourself first instead of her.

'My worst fear is turning out like her'

Not a chance, based on what you've written here today

Good God.

I could have written that. Except about the health problems, my mum is in good health.

But the rest of it, the bullying brother, the only talking about things she wants to, lack of affection, never being able to criticize, the "difficult" teenage behaviour that was just normal. All of it is my mum. Shes impossible.

I am in a situation where mine has taken a great attachment to my eldest to the point that I feared she was reliving my childhood through my child. It was creepy and weird so I reduced contact and since then she is "punishing" me with her silence. She won't contact me, doesn't want to spend time with us (me, DH and 2 DDs) and I won't hear from her now until the next "contact day" she has with the eldest.

The result of being brought up by someone like this though is that you always doubt your own judgement, I'm often not sure if I've done the right thing, constantly analysing myself to make sure I'm treating people properly. My worst fear is turning out like her.

I feel exactly the same and I have found myself having to explain the whole situation to friends to try to gauge whether I am in the wrong or not because I would drive myself crazy wondering if I am the crazy one.

I have found that limiting contact, not telling her about my life (so she has nothing to comment on) and just keeping myself emotionally detached from her helps. Your sense of duty must be so hard to deal with, and I can't imagine how I will cope in the future when my mums health declines.

So, I can't give you much advice really, just letting you know you aren't alone!

It's so draining, you're right Lotta! My sympathies to you if you have MIL to deal with too! It's such a shame as it's so much easier I think to be the opposite of draining. Thank you for your kind words, they mean a lot. xxxx

Hi, I also recognise your mum in mine and I had a recent similar thread. There are a lot of us out there! I've emotionally detached from my mum and don't call her so much now. When I see her I try to keep things light. I've never confided in her about anything as she's never been reassuring, she becomes anxious and I become more stressed. I think your DD will be fine as you'll be a much greater influence in her life than her Gran. i too worry about how mum will fare in old age as she's getting increasingly difficult as she gets older and we could have another 20+ years of worsening behaviour. My mum tries to cuddle me and demands kisses but i can't bear it as it's about reinforcing her needs rather than a genuine affection IYSWIM. She then sulks when I pull away.

'My mum tries to cuddle me and demands kisses but i can't bear it as it's about reinforcing her needs rather than a genuine affection IYSWIM.'

My mother used to do this up until my late teens and I hated it. It made me so uncomfortable but I could never figure out why. And all the critical voices in my head - 'she's your mum, she just wants a hug! Just give her a hug FFS!' I also hated (and still feel uncomfortable) when she says 'love you' - it just doesn't sound right at all. I haven't said it back to her for years. I tell my DP I love him at least 3 times a day and I say 'love you lots' to my mate and her little girl - that all feels good because it's true and meaningful. But that forced, performance-type expression of affection - yuck.

Fuzzyfelt123,

I would suggest that you read "Will I ever be good enough" written by Karyl McBride as you may well find that useful.

Do read the website entitled "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" as well.

Narcissistic women cannot do relationships at all and your Dad is someone whom I would not let off the hook here either. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out.

NEVER leave your child alone with your mother. There is no evidence to suggest that your mother has at all altered and will behave in different ways now to your DD. Narcissists tend to either over value or undervalue the relationship with their grandchild. Also such people make for being deplorably bad role models as grandparents too.

Sometimes they can appear to be quite nice; when this happens leg it fast because she is then setting you up to do something really nasty to you!. Its very confusing. The nice things are a favour doled out to you by her grace and favour. You actually have no rights. And if you try to assert rights - well, the fun is over and you're put back in your box.

I would say low going to ultimately no contact is a way forward for you as well. Its hard being the last one left but you do need to step further away from her for your own sake as well as your own family unit. You need boundaries as well re her because she has trained you really to serve her and subsume your own needs.

You won't turn into your mother because you have two qualities that she has not got and never will have - empathy and insight. I cannot emphasise enough the narcissists complete lack of empathy towards others.

Heya,
I have a question for those of you who grew up with difficult mums. My fiance and I have been talking about having kids, but I am terrified of replicating the same relationship that my mum had with me, and her mum with her before that. I feel that my mum is unreliable, and my father and I always had to contend with her bad temper and teenage strops.
So really my question is, is maternal instinct really a thing? what if we have a child and I end up not loving it? :S

DrewOB, my own childhood and the way I was parented is a big factor in my decision not to have children. Now, that's the right thing for me, but it may not be for you. Do you actively want to have children, or are you just exploring it as a possibility?

The very fact that you're asking these questions is a good indicator that you will not turn out like your mother. Another key to not replicating your mother's behaviour is understanding it. I don't know if you have accessed counselling/psychotherapy but I would recommend it hugely -for your own sake. It will help you to understand what happened, to gain some distance from it, to look a bit more objectively at what your childhood was like. People who have grown up in horribly abusive environments have gone on to be good parents themselves, so it can be done, but the more support you have with it, the better.

drew I worried about the same thing, but luckily I have a twin brother who took the plunge first and had 2 kids... I watched him become a fantastic father and in no way has he replicated our up bringing.

I worried about my maternal instinct, but we have the luxury of knowing how NOT to raise a child, so I am just doing the opposite! Friends of mine who have great parents are worried they won't be able to replicate their wonderful childhoods... so everyone worries!

I am currently sat with my gorgeous 6 week old boy in my lap, and I have totally bonded, and love him, and would do anything for him! Just think, the fact you KNOW they were awful is half the battle, and you have that awareness.

We have a narc mum ( mil) you just can't win with them . She is always falling out with someone and being victimised and its ways someone else fault . She is frankly quite vile .. I have no advice but feel for you .

I agree with Lotta.

Another thing I would say is that I thought I had a normal childhood and a normal mother until I had my own kids. I mean, I always knew she was a bit strange, but I truly believed that I had caused all the problems. But when I had my first baby there was this slow dawning because I was seeing it from the other side and I could never imagine treating my own child the way she treated me.

It really was like my world being tipped upside down and actually everything I thought I knew wasn't the way I knew it, if that makes sense.

I would say that if you have this insight already then you will make a great mum because you are consciously making sure your parenting is even and balanced. I sometimes struggle with giving and receiving affection, but because I grew up without it and I know how that feels I force myself to make it a part of our lives. My DDs know I love them. I am also super careful about how I word anything that could be taken as criticism, and ultimately make sure there is more praise than negatives in my household.

Thank you so much for the replies, it's very hard to find people who understand what it's like.
I spent a few days fretting about how to tell her about being engaged, and finally sent her a fb message (i know :S) and all I heard was "that's great". nothing since. Is it wrong to want a bit of enthusiasm or excitement?

No, its not wrong at all Drew, but its often the way with mothers like ours. My sister phoned our mother to say that she was moving in with her boyfriend and got absolutely stony silence. Nice. It's very painful when the person who should be your very biggest cheerleader seems to be deliberately witholding support.

jammytoast what you said about your mother trying to replicate your childhood through your DD rings alarm bells for me! My DM has enjoyed a lovely few years of unconditional love from her GC and now that my eldest DD is a teen, I feel that DM is trying to make DD into her confidante. I will keep a very close eye on it.
I can't really talk to friends in RL about DM because they all have healthyish relationships with there's and don't understand. I'm glad for them that they don't understand actually!
Attila I read the advice you give to others too and you're always spot on. It's impossible to have a relationship with her. You're right that she overvalues her relationship with DD. I guess I maintain low contact as it's easier than NC - that's what she's done with her family and I don't want to copy her - my biggest fear is to be like her. I realise this is warped logic!
I've read those books you recommend and Toxic Parents, they've all given me loads of insight.
DrewOB this was a big worry for me and still is. I promise you will love your baby. Though it made make me even sadder about my relationship with my mother. I love my DCs so much I can't believe that she thinks it's ok to choose a life of not being kind and loving. I had some counselling for this.

Thanks for help everyone. I'm really glad I posted this today. It's really helped. Xxx

'Lotta' and 'Drew' my DM has been 'meh' about some of my life events too. You're right they should be your biggest cheerleaders. I often say to my kids that me and DH are their biggest fans. I suspect jealousy on our DMs part

Jealousy all the way Fuzzy, so true. I remember a friend of mine, who has a pretty good relationship with her mum, being horrified by some of my stories about my family, and she said 'but she's your mum! She's supposed to be on your side no matter what'. It was a thunderbolt moment, and I realised that I had rarely felt she was on my side, and that it had just become normal to me that she was cold and took pleasure in humiliating me etc. So damaging. I've come a very long way since then.

Fuzzyfelt

Re this part of your comment to Jammytoast:-

"My DM has enjoyed a lovely few years of unconditional love from her GC and now that my eldest DD is a teen, I feel that DM is trying to make DD into her confidante. I will keep a very close eye on it".

I'd be putting a complete halt to your mother's one way relationship with your DD as of now, your mother cannot behave and she will manipulate your own flesh and blood before your very eyes. You do not want your DD to become either her confidante or winged monkey who goes on to defends her grandmother. It is not harsh to actually go no contact with such a woman like your mother.

One of the biggest regrets expressed on forums re narcissistic grandparents is the parents actually giving said grandparents access to their young children in the first place (mainly because they thought they would behave better that time around).

On that subject, my grandmother being the original source of all problems (My mum tried running away when she was 6, taking her younger sister with her. she still is scared of suffocating and has an eating disorder as well as some cleaning compulsive disorder. When she was 10, my GM just said she didnt want her anymore and my mum lived with my GGM until she went to uni), my mum had the clarity not to ever leave me or my siblings in her care, even for 5 min, so in her way, she did look out for me.
People don't change with age, and you do not have to make peace and accept apologies.

That's really interesting about the Grandparent thing. My logic has been that my mum didn't get much love from her family, doesn't get much love from her DH and didn't get much from me or siblings, so I've tried to give her a fresh start with her GC. She said herself during one of our few conversations about her behaviour that she knows she messed up with being a mother and would like to show me what she's really like as a GM. (I thought narcs weren't capable of recognising their faults or is this a Narc manipulating me?) I thought at the time this was a reasonable solution and over the last few years she has been a lovely GM. The DCs do adore her. It is only now that they're older that I think it'll go wrong as she certainly changed for the worse towards me when I became a teen and had my own opinions.
Another reason she sees them, though I realise I may be wrong, is that I had a lovely relationship with my GM, my mothers' mother (who she hated). She's dead now but we were close and she was really the only one who was really affectionate and kind towards me (because I was her Narc supply?) According to my mum though, my GM was horrible to her. She often wished her dead (a recurring theme here!)
Anyway, I guess I'm trying to give my kids and my mum that seemingly healthy GM relationship I experienced.
Yes your right Attilla I suppose I'm thinking she'll be better second time around. I don't think she's done any damage yet, though I may be kidding myself. Time for some careful thought I think.

Also she is always v complimentary and kind to the DCs. Not like she was with me. However, what she does do is occasionally say unkind things about other people when the DCs are within earshot. And she does rarely criticise my parenting - I'm too soft, they take me for a mug etc. I stand up to this.

Sorry to bang on but I forgot to mention the paranoia. She takes things the wrong way very easily and assumes people are being deliberately offensive. This is why I'm wary of her relationship with DD now - she's a teen, she's bound to say things that can be taken the wrong way. Or am I being paranoid like her?!

My mum took against another of our relatives for 18 months. Ignoring her calls, bitching to me about her etc etc. I take everything she says with a pinch of salt, but at that time there were a couple of things that this relative had done directly to me that had made me feel bad about myself, so I had cooled off too, but not to the same extent. Anyway, my mums behaviour had made the situation absolutely unbearable to the point that I felt I had no other choice but to speak to the relative to try and clear the air. It all blew up in my face and I ended up taking the brunt of the fall out, eve though it really had nothing to do with me but my mum had dragged me into it.

Now I know that she is like this I just don't call her when shes having a paranoid bitchy phase. But I do think that she is probably doing the same thing to me right now, bitching to people about me and making out its all my issues and my fault. I actually don't care, whereas before I would have been devastated to think she thought badly of me. Its empowering to really not care.

Time for some careful thought indeed.

I think your mother Fuzzyfelt actually made the terrible choice not to love and I think her own comments to you are further manipulation rather than an actual admittance of doing anything wrong. Such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

narcissists are not actually at all good at doing relationships and the men in the narcissists lives are either narcissistic themselves or are gone. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. Narcissists simply don't have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one.

She would have acted differently around your child than she did to you when you were younger. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. Which allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From my personal experience, and from observing the experiences of others, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

(My FIL is a narcissist and even though he is quiet he is not benign at all and shows no interest whatsoever in anything other than him and the image he projects to others. He undervalues. It has been down to me to protect my child from such influences).

Never ever leave your DD alone with her!. I sincerely hope you have never done this. You cannot and absolutely must not let your DD become her winged monkey!!!. You need to protect your DD from such malign influences.

At the very least now you need to cut down on access between your mother and your family unit.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you both physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you. They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.