Is my mother a narcissist, and where do I go from here?

[grazingfees]

I have had a pretty rocky relationship with my mother for a long time.

When I was younger I managed it by living away from her and not seeing her that often. She lives 150 miles away but since having DC has visited far more frequently.

These visits are always very stressful for me. She will come into the house and either demand to know why something is broken and we haven't fixed it (minor wear and tear stuff) or she will follow me around telling me that however I'm doing something (inane - such as hanging up washing) is wrong and trying to 'correct' me.

She doesn't seem to have a proper grasp of the fact that I am an independent adult and that I have boundaries that she should respect.

She has been like this for as long as I can remember - I can remember accidentally not locking the bathroom door when I was a teen and she came in. That's fine, it was an accident, but instead of quickly shutting the door and walking off she just stood there staring at me naked in the shower.

She makes a big thing of wanting to see the DC, but when she's with them it's not like she's actually with them. She doesn't listen to what they say to her, but she likes the idea of being the doting grandmother.

She gets stroppy if she isn't the centre of attention...for example, a few years ago DC1 turned 2 when DC2 was 6 weeks old. We had a day out at the zoo with my parents and my PIL (who my mother is insanely jealous of).

I forwarded on some photographs of the day to her afterwards - most were from FIL camera and a couple from our camera. Afterwards my mother stropped and wouldn't speak to me/avoided my calls. Even when my Dad told her that I had just found out I'd been made redundant from a job I was relying on going back to.

Eventually I asked her what she was wrong and she said "I'll tell you what's wrong - there are NO pictures of me at the zoo in the photos you sent. Not one, it's like I wasn't there!!"

The majority of the photos (maybe 50 were of animals - there was a singular ONE of me, on MY DDs birthday). I hadn't taken a single photo. I just...is that a reason to sulk and refuse to speak to a DD who has a toddler, a newborn and has just found out is facing financial uncertainty?

Anyway...I have spent my life being told by her that 'she can't say anything to me' that I am feisty, gobby, argumentative (and my Dad backs her up on this - though he is quite happy to 'tease' me to provoke a reaction).

Finally, at the age of 36 I'm starting to wonder - what if it's not me? I think my parents see my as a totally different person to the way other people do, because they are the only people in the world I am like that around (defensive, basically).

and it's long, sorry.

No advice I'm afraid, but watching this with interest. My mother is exactly the same, down to the "I can't say anything to you because you are so argumentative".

At the moment, I try not to respond to her criticisms. I just look at her and give her a hard, forced smile, but say nothing. Very passive aggressive, but stops an argument.

It's so hard isn't it, Mermaid?

My mother has got a constant need to be 'the best' at everything. But not just the big stuff - everything - whatever I'm doing, I could be chopping vegetables, putting shopping away, making a cup of tea, anything mundane and all I'll get is "let me show you how to do that".

She interferes over the tiniest thing. We took the DC to the beach in the summer holidays and the DC went and sat on the patio with my Mum while my Dad went and got ice cream and coffee. There was a big queue at the main counter so I suggested that my Dad got the ice creams and took them to the DC while I queued for coffee.

We were doing this and my Mum LEFT the DC (one of whom is tiny) unattended on the patio behind the cafe to see what was taking so long then started trying to boss us around saying we should have got the ice cream from the coffee queue.

FFS my Dad and I are both capable, educated adults, we can buy some coffee and ice cream without someone abandoning my DC to come and interfere.

I know that's just a little thing but being with her it's like that ALL THE TIME.

She sounds exactly like my mother!!! She once gave me a 5 minute lecture about how she had been complimented on her tidy washing line and how I was doing it all wrong!! I am a constant source of disappointment.

It's not you, it's her.

Sympathies, vod. Its just so trying.

I find that I can stomach her for a couple of days and then I just start to answer her back.

I have had practically physical rows with her in the past when she is determined to do things her way - DC1 had a nappy accident on the motorway once and when we stopped at the services I went to put the dirty clothes in a bag.

My mother adamant that they should be soaked first. I was explaining to her that I would rather seal the clothes up in a bag than soak them in the bathrooms in the service station because I didn't want a) poo water spraying everywhere and b) to carry around a big, heavy bag of wet poo water soaked clothes all the way home with me.

She was literally wrenching the clothes out of my hands because SHE KNOWS BEST.

Its not you, its the pair of them. It is not your fault they are like this.

I would suggest you read Toxic Parents written by Susan Forward and consider also posting on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread. Her reaction to you is typical toxic parent type defection to blame you for their inherent ills.

Do you have siblings; if so what sort of a relationship do they have with these people?.

Your Mother sounds very difficult to say the least and she may well be narcissistic in terms of personality. She does not think you are at all capable and so constantly tries to control and interfere.

I would not let your dad off the hook either though because he enables her. You cannot rely on him to protect you from his wife; he is a bystander acting out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Also men like him need someone to idolise. He would much rather see you get her barbed comments.

Narcissists simply don't have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one.An Enabling Father is one who panders to the Narcissistic Mother, who facilitates her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. Their love for each other is more likely to be actually an unhealthy co-dependency.

Where are your own boundaries with regards to your parents?.

Do you really want these two in your life at all now?. If you find them too difficult to deal with its the same deal for your children who are also being subjected to them.

Thanks attila.

Without wishing to sound like a cliche - I have a brother 2 years older who is the golden boy and always has been. My mother has made it clear in the past that their relationship is 'different' i.e. more special than her relationship with me - "it's a mother-son thing" according to her.

My Dad is pretty able to stand up for himself generally on life but she picks and picks and fault finds with him and he just tries to ignore her really.

I don't know where to go from here, really. I don't mind seeing them occasionally, it is the prolonged contact (which unfortunately the distance make necessary - it can't be a sunday lunch job).

"Where are your own boundaries with regards to your parents?"

Good question. I just try not to tell them anything. For e.g. when I learned to drive in my late 20s I never told them I was having lessons, ditto if I ever got a new job, would never tell them I had applied. I just don't generally tell them stuff, really, because any opportunity my mother gets to make something going on in my life a huge drama about herself she will take (I once didn't get a promotion I REALLY wanted at work and SHE locked herself in her bedroom and cried )

But even that, it's not enough when she's invading my space. They're visiting on Friday and I'm dreading it.

I have read up a bit on NPD and seen that it's often linked to an early traumatic life event.

My mother has told me many, many times that when she was 3 she was put in a sanitorium for (I can't remember the exact period of time - months, definitely) and not allowed to see her parents. So that kind of fits.

for scarlet fever

I recognise much of what you say (always me that was being argumentative/ defensive, even though not like this with anyone else) and am the same age as you. Roughly one and a half years ago i cut contact with her altogether, and my dad took her side. Saw them both at my brother's wedding earlier this year but otherwise not seen them or spoken in all that time. Once it was clear that i wan't going to just accept it all, they just didn't want me around. The stately homes thread really helped me - advice and support whether or not you maintain contact.

Wow milly, how do you find it being nc? Do you intend to stay that way forever?

Found it really tough at times, but mostly just a relief and feel free to be myself without someone always waiting to drag me down. I have had times when i felt terribly guilty and awkward cos my brother just wants everything to go back to normal. There was various other stuff and basically mum is not a very nice person at all, and my dad refuses to see it.

I didn't take the decision lightly and stand by my decision. My life is much nicer without mum in it. She will never be the mum i want or need in my life, and i would rather have no mum than one that feels the need to hurt me at every opportunity.

However i am not strictly nc as this has caused some friction with my brother, eg lt christmas when i didn't send them a card, and in the run up to my brotherr's wedding. I still send my dad cards on his birthday and father's day, as i don't have as much of a problem with him. I also made small talk with them at the wedding, but this was really for my brother's sake. I am also considering sending them a card this christmas, to avoid the tensions of last year with db. However, any cards i get from them, i throw straight in the bin, and i will be the only one not celebrating my mum's 60th birthday party in a few weeks time.

So whilst i am not expecting to see or speak to them ever again, i still send the occasional card, more for my brother/ other relatives really. We used to speak every week on the phone and see each other regularly, but mum knows what she needs to do to resolve things and she has never shown any remorse or real affection, so i focus on spending my time with those who love me and make my world that much brighter

I empathise with everything on this thread :(

Is draining.

Can I ask?

Is it common for narc mothers (or fathers for that matter) to have a "golden child" they dote on and can see no wrong in?
I really think - for my own sanity - I am going to have to step back from my mother.
She is not nice to be around.
She doesn't really make an effort with my dc (never has)
Just been invites to a 40th in nov.
No childcare so can't go.
She didn't offer :(
Why dies it still upset me?
I am 42 ffs!
My brother can do no wrong (he has done some pretty despicable things in the past) but I have increasingly come to realise he is the most like her in character.
Toxic parents is very good, do read it op x

"Draining"
Yes.
That's the exact word.

Well done millymolly, you sound like you are dealing with it really well. I'm not sure I could - I know if I tried to withdraw I'd get screeching about keeping her GC away from her and would be painted as the bad guy. And when it's all so insidious and seemingly intangible it's so hard to explain to other people.

Sorry mrsgrumble

Badvoc - yes. There is often a scapegoat child and a golden child. Sounds familiar. I'm sorry

I just feel so bitter towards him and my sister.
(My mum is a very bitter woman and it terrifies me I might be like her. I have told Dh if I start behaving like her to suffocate me in my sleep. I am not kidding :()
Since dad died last year I have done everything (I was dad's executor)
I keep going over and over in my head the days and weeks after he died...how can you know and love someone for 40 years and have no opinion or input in their funeral?
I simply don't understand.
I don't think I ever will.

Thanks grazing - i got a lot of support on these boards when things were tough, which really helped me. And other than that, i think just the passing of time helps. I don't have children, so i guess that makes it easier in some ways too.

Badvoc - yes, there is usually a golden child and quite common for siblings to be played off against each other.

I know what you mean about not wanting to become like your mother, I made my husband promise faithfully to leave me and take the children if I ever show signs of becoming like my biological mother.

grazing there aren't any easy answers. Do you think she could ever change? or is she just determined to Know Best at all times and will never change? Also, does she mean well, or is this actually a way of controlling you lovelessly?

If she'll never change, then you really have to look at backing right off. Is there any way at all you can space visits out further, and make them only for 2 days? (you said you could handle her for two days). I'm guessing that just laughing at her won't work "ah mum, one day you'll work out I'm all grown up too".

Would a letter laying out what's going wrong help? A civil but firm letter? or would that release fury / tears and a major strop?

If you can't space the visits out or keep them short, then you may need to consider actually not inviting her at all. She will be very upset, but you don't need to be reduced to a 5 year old being taught how to wipe her bottom.

Meerka....thank you. It helps to know I'm not the only one! (But am sorry for you too :()

Is it a sign of narcissism when they take no interest in their grandchildren, do you think? I have three beautiful sons and my mother gives me all this shit about how she doesn't know them or what theyre interested in but whenever she's with them she ignores them, doesn't try to find out about them. DS3 started school last week and nothing, not a phone call, nada. But I am blamed for not keeping them informed about my DSs activities, likes, hobbies, etc, it's MY fault she doesn't know them. Sheesh.

I don't think it's necessarily narcissism no. That actually is a technical psychiatric term that people are using all over, often without knowing what it really means and without any medical training.

Mostly it's people beign selfish, unpleasant, and self-obsessed when they act like your mother. Sorry.

Some of the things my mother has said are so upsetting. Would love to give examples but it would out me if some people I know in RL are mumsnetters. Parents do not live locally so am not obliged to be visiting too often and we are not important enough for them to come visit. And do I want her here slagging (behind my back but loud enough so I can hear) my house or anything else off.
Anything you have wrong (be it an illness or a life just getting you down a bit) she has had it worse. Don't bother now.
I am most definitely not the favourite.

I sympathise. You will need to find some way to detach from her emotionally. Going no contact can help, but if you're able to, you can stay in contact and just work on your reactions to her: on how to not let her push your buttons, by accepting that she is the way she is, she won't change, and that it's not personal (it's not about you).

She and your father are wounded people, acting out by being controlling / submissive, because their own self esteem is just not good enough to stand on their own two feet, and to let others around them be their own people.

Your mother needs to bring you down in order to feel better about herself. It's unpleasant, but it's not about you.

Your dad accepts to close his eyes to her controlling ways, because it's just easier like that. Again, it's his own weakness; it's not about you.

All you can do is accept that they won't change, choose how much you want to see them, and choose what your limits are: when you will stand up to them (eg. when their self-centredness puts your DC in danger, or even pulling her up on every little stray put-down), and when you will just grit your teeth and bear it (eg. when there are family dos you know will be painful but that are also important for you to be able to stay in touch with any given relatives). You choose your own limits.