Gender Fluidity?

[TwiceRemoved]

Looks like I posted this in the wrong initially (either that or it REALLY is that boring!) but we'll try again here....

Looking at the image for the "Life & Style" section reminded me of a recent conversation over dinner with a group of friends from various backgrounds and with various ideas and conceptions (most of which we all seem to disagree on to some extent) where the subject of gender fluidity was raised.

Being generally biased (all of us) and some of us possibly a tiny bit worse for wear due to the alcohol intake, we seemed unable to find any middle ground - it was either 100% there is room (and possibly a need) for gender fluidity in today's society (the western bit anyway...) or 100% there is absolutely no place for gender fluidity - one is either male with all the 'manly' tracts associated with said gender, or 100% female with similar feminine ways, dress codes, etc.

I am definitely biased towards the "yes, there is a place for it" vote, but then I do paint my nails, wear the odd bit of 'cosmetic refinement' (yeah, OK, call it slap) and am happy to tentatively float between M and F as circumstances dictate or as my fancy takes me when no other overriding circumstances prevail.

One of our female friends is also in the "yes" camp and got quite annoyed with her DP who would only laugh at or derogate comments or arguments rather than come up with anything sensible. I think this made her harden even more towards the "yes" vote rather than settle where she actually meant to be...

Possibly unsurprisingly the split was about 50/50 although with more females in the "yes" camp, and more males in the "no" camp. No-one appeared to be in the nether regions of "don't know, not sure, don't care, etc."

So - gender fluidity - is there a place for it? Is there a time/place when there is absolutely no place for it (perhaps using the public loos in Debenhams?) Can it help or only hinder? Are men frightened of it? Could it close the gender divide or just do even more damage (i.e. to relationships, etc?) Do we all need to be so hung up on gender definitions and stick rigidly to the "real men don't do that" brigade, or can we introduce a 'third' gender. I like the third gender idea, and I'd call it a 'person' (but then like I said, I'm biased).

sure there's a place for it. Why not? some people's brains are wired up in a way more commonly associated with the opposite agenda. a few females are actually technically genetically male. And there's always people with both genders.

I think it has to be handled tactfully - people with dangly bits btween their legs should not be in the ladies' loos imo, unless they're age 3. But other that, I see no reason to be strict about the whole thing. More interesting anyway, more variety in society.

Are men and women not persons, then?

... uh, sorry, what?

I think you're mixing up a few different things in there.

I am not 'gender fluid'. I am female, have always identified as female, and don't feel any need to be anything else.

But I work in IT, wear trousers and flat shoes/boots, don't wear makeup, like trains and PC games, heavy rock music, etc, etc, etc.

So, I am not 'feminine', and see no reason why anyone would expect me to follow some kind of dress code or behave in stereotypical ways just because of the genitals and hormones I happen to have.

That's totally different from someone who identifies themself as 'gender fluid' - which I take to mean that they see no reason to identify as either gender. Some people seem to be that, and I'm fine with them being what they decide they are - though they'll have to cope with a lot of bemused questions and odd looks as people try (politely or otherwise) to decided whether to allocate them as 'he' or 'she' in their minds.

I have absolutely no idea what gender "fluidity" might be referring to. "Fluid" to me means not static, not fixed. I can't get my head round how one's gender could be not fixed. Identity maybe. Maybe.

Or are you saying that gender is not always strictly either/or but can be on a sliding-scale betwixt the two? If so, on an objective biological basis, I agree with you.

I am a SAHD and quite a girly man, although I don't look it at all. I am much happier in the company of women in general, prefer their outlook and admire their skillset (on average of course, everyone is different) and would have preferred to have been born a woman! I am straight.

Before you all tell me womanhood it's not all it's cracked up to be, I know! I have a wife who had a difficult pregnancy, I look after a SN child full time and I read MN a lot.

I dislike competitive behaviour in general and macho-ness in particular and this can be shown in my preference of chick flicks over war films / courtroom dramas etc.

Is this the sort of thing you were talking about?

I don't really understand what you mean by gender fluidity.

I believe that society would be a hell of a lot happier if people could wear and do whatever they wanted without stuff being randomly labelled "man" or "woman". I don't think we need a third gender to do that, I think we just need to grow up and stop pretending that lipstick has anything to do with being a woman, or going to the football has anything to do with being a man.

A good illustration of how this is already happening is that I found it really hard to think of an example of a stereotypically "manly" thing - football is clearly a crap example, but so is taking out the bins, wearing trousers, doing diy, joining the army, drinking pints... Maybe peeing standing up .

Some men do things that are mostly done by women (be a nursery nurse, wear nailpolish, knit). They are still men. Some women do things that are mostly done by men (erm... trainspotting). They are still women.

My heroes (as much as I have them) are just as likely to be strong women as strong men. Is having heroes (as much as I have them) a male trait, is admiring strength of will also a male trait. Btw. I admire Gandhi (in almost all of what he did) or Diane Fossey and not Thatcher or Obama or Madonna or whoever last won the Apprentice.

Looks as if I don't believe in the question mark. Sorry!

My wife, reflects my ideals and is strong willed sure of herself and sometimes a little bit opinionated. She usually wears trousers to work.
I think as a couple we both bridge the sexual identity divide in different ways, so we complement each other in that, that's probably what makes our relationship work.

OP you say
Are men frightened of it? Could it close the gender divide or just do even more damage (i.e. to relationships, etc?)

I expect many men are frightened of fluid gender identity as it might erode their position. Men have historically seemed to be frightened of female emancipation. I am not at all, I have no bastion to defend, I am already a feminist in as much as it means equal rights. I think relationships and society should work equably and that (in my view) means similar rights between the sexes, and similar rights for for different cultural backgrounds and in similar rights terms of economic and political power etc.

Gender is an artificial social construct, and the reality of human nature is that everyone is gender fluid (or, rather, that even is fluid, full stop). Gender is also a performance of that construct, so the level of rigidity of one's performance, or rigidity in their belief in gender stereotypes and 'norms' as being true will determine how much or how little they believe that gender fluidity is possible or permissible. You can't get much more of an irony than people brainwashed into behaving certain ways arguing if the actual true and natural state of being for people is real or not!

Men who are scared of the concept of gender fluidity are generally misogynists who see femaleness and femininity as inferior, etc., so they reject any of that within themselves, or closeted homosexuals, who think that denying any female/feminine aspect to themselves will stop people guessing their true orientation. Or just pathetic twats. Or a combination of all of those. Losers, in other words.

BTW, OP, the concept of being 'third gender' already exists, and it is generally used by people who refuse to identify with any gender stereotypes, which is a bit different than being gender fluid.

What 'male' and 'female' mean is not congruent throughout the world or history, even within living memory, which just further proves its bullshit and that fluidity is the innate state of being.

it's grrr.

Thanks gincamparidryvermouth and yes - men and women are persons (as long, it often appears, as they are a man OR a woman... I have taken a helluvalot of stick for looking/dressing/acting somewhere between the two).

I guess I often feel the same way that dadwood does, in that I too prefer the company of women, and often look at my manly self and think "why wasn't I born feminine, things could have been so different..." but then I think "OK, I'm a man - get over it!" But that doesn't prevent me from presenting (when it's only me, DW and DDs) and behaving more female than male (although strange thing is, if the electrics suddenly go bang or a pipe bursts 'male' me takes over and sorts it out PDQ (not always easy in a skirt and the hair curlers make me just too tall for the loft!)

'Male' me cooks the dinner (sometimes), washes up, etc., 'female' me seems to sit around a lot! (Sexist or what? )

'Female' me is kind, caring and considerate. 'Male' me can be a bastard.

Male me looks good in a decent pair of jeans, and so does female me. Similarly we both look a bit rubbish in a skirt! (And why don't they make dresses that fit the male shape?) Female me loves doing my hair, male me just wishes it wasn't starting to disappear off my head only to re-appear up my nose and in my ears...

Summary:
Solution:

Hold on OxfordBags

You can't mean that men and women aren't different in their general strengths? Aren't men and women on average different and so some gender identity will always arise? I am not trying to wind you up, you can see what kind of guy I am from above comments.

TwiceRemoved I do the DIY as well, and the garden. Wife cooks, always, because I am not interested in food and am therefore not patient or good at it, I sew. She decides on house decor. I fix the car. I am a better listener I think. We share the child talks when she is not at work. We both are good with computers.

Nice to know there are more people about a bit like me!

But why do you feel you have to label aspects of your personality as male or female? You are a person, with a range of different attributes. The fact that some of those attributes are stereotypically labelled as 'female' or 'male' is simply nonsense.

You can be kind and caring, but you can also sometimes be a bastard. That's called being human. Neither is the sole preserve of one gender.

You don't have to be 100% 'blokey' to be male, just as I don't have to be 100% 'feminine' to be a woman.

I guess it's easier from my side of the fence, as I can sit here in a shirt and waistcoat that came from the men's side of the shop, with jeans and flat boots that came from the women's side, and nobody thinks or says anything about it. Whereas if you choose to go to work in a skirt and makeup then it's seen as more 'odd' and threatening.

But that's just the wrapping surely?

Aren't men and women on average different

I (in male format) am great at driving to the pub, DW is great at driving home form the pub! I can get the top off the pickle jar, but can't thread a needle to save my life. DW can handle just about any situation calmly, objectively and with the requisite degree of maturity, whereas the word 'tantrum' sums me up in similar situations...

DW has reached the top in her profession, I'm still trying to catch up.

And DW looks fantastic in whatever she wears.

I think gender is not fluid at all, except in some rare biological cases. Gender is fixed. What is increasingly fluid, verging on meaningless, is the idea of gender-specific behaviour, clothing or other peripherals. Just because someone wears nail polish it doesn't make them female any more than wearing trousers makes someone male.

CogitoErgoSometimes I agree, but I don't think society has got there yet, or ever quite will!

TwiceRemoved I think women are just more beautiful than men, but I'm a straight man, so you'd expect that. And they get to wear make-up, although that annoys my wife, who would prefer a world without it I think.

AMumInScotland I think women can assume a "male identity" more easily than men can assume a "female identity" at the moment in the UK. I don't know what that signifies.

Tbh, you could take every instance of you calling a behaviour or attribute "male" and call it "tomato" and call every instance of "female" behaviour "plum" and it would make as much sense to me.

I'm responsible for everything to do with cars, diy and finance in our house. Dh does cooking & shopping, liaising with school/school gate (eg helping out in class and play dates after school). In many households these tasks would be likely reversed. Doesn't make me male. Doesn't make him female.

Society may currently judge you for the way you dress, but society is fickle. I'm already seeing a big change in what are considered "acceptable gender behaviours" re: childcare when I compare my friends to what our parents did. Things can change, but not (imo) your gender.

'Society' depends on where you are. Some cosmopolitan city and no-one gives a hoot what goes on. Some woolly-back outpost with a big God Squad contingent and you'll get funny looks just for whistling Dixie in public....

Whenever I succumb to doing one of these moronic questionnaires (I blame Facebook) that claim to know if your answers make you 'male or female brained' my results always come back a dead heat, 50/50, neither one nor the other. Doesn't make me any less female.

Cogito, gender is not fixed. At all. It's artificial. Yes, people can be rigid in their performance of gender, but there is nothing natural at all about it. I think you might be getting sex and gender mixed up, because the rest of your comment backs up gender being fluid.

Dadwood, men and women are different, but not INNATELY different. We are brainwashed into being different. We are trained from birth to perform whatever gender is congruent with our sex (genitals). This is called being cisgender, (as an aside, constantly reiterating how unsexist you are to women does you no favours. I don't feel the need to tell black people I'm not racist. I'm saying this as a friendly suggestion, btw).

Men and women behave differently because we are trained to do so, and believe it is natural. There is basically no difference in the brains of males and females at birth, and when young, no difference whatsoever. However, as genderisation is forced upon us as we grow, the ways in which we are allowed to perform as our alloted gender, or not allowed to perform, do have influence on the brain's performance, in a 'use it or lose it' type of way, ie if you're told you're meant to be aggressive, logical, unemotional, and so on (male), you're going to use the parts of the brain that correspond with those traits more, so they just start to feel more familiar and easy. However, even with these different uses of brains, studies show that even with the differences caused by genderisation, the brains of female and male adults are still pretty much the same. Gender is total brainwashing, a delusion that people do not understand or often believe exists. It really is an act.

OP, stuff like categorising things like needle threading and opening jars as genderised is bonkers! Are you seriously reducing different types of fine motor skills as male or female? That is v daft, and patently untrue.

To me, this thread exemplifies one if the downsides for men of our patriarchal society. Two men on this thread are describing having to have split identities in order to incorporate very normal human characteristics because society has deemed those qualities to belong to the other, lesser gender. It's quite sad.

CogitoErgoSometimes but can you be a top exec without wearing the rather masculine uniform? on a related subject, Lord Browne had to hide the fact he was gay. It's different what society will accept in the street and what it allows in the professions. I totally take that "Society" varies considerably with location.

I agree, Bigger.

It's also sad how many women also denigrate so-called "female" things. It's a reason that I'm about the whole "pink stinks" campaign. Every toddler I've ever met loves pink and glitter until they're told they can't.

If people actually got to choose, free of all judgement, who knows what the majority of each sex would opt for? I think it would be far more 50/50 than most people think.