Gender Fluidity?

[TwiceRemoved]

Looks like I posted this in the wrong initially (either that or it REALLY is that boring!) but we'll try again here....

Looking at the image for the "Life & Style" section reminded me of a recent conversation over dinner with a group of friends from various backgrounds and with various ideas and conceptions (most of which we all seem to disagree on to some extent) where the subject of gender fluidity was raised.

Being generally biased (all of us) and some of us possibly a tiny bit worse for wear due to the alcohol intake, we seemed unable to find any middle ground - it was either 100% there is room (and possibly a need) for gender fluidity in today's society (the western bit anyway...) or 100% there is absolutely no place for gender fluidity - one is either male with all the 'manly' tracts associated with said gender, or 100% female with similar feminine ways, dress codes, etc.

I am definitely biased towards the "yes, there is a place for it" vote, but then I do paint my nails, wear the odd bit of 'cosmetic refinement' (yeah, OK, call it slap) and am happy to tentatively float between M and F as circumstances dictate or as my fancy takes me when no other overriding circumstances prevail.

One of our female friends is also in the "yes" camp and got quite annoyed with her DP who would only laugh at or derogate comments or arguments rather than come up with anything sensible. I think this made her harden even more towards the "yes" vote rather than settle where she actually meant to be...

Possibly unsurprisingly the split was about 50/50 although with more females in the "yes" camp, and more males in the "no" camp. No-one appeared to be in the nether regions of "don't know, not sure, don't care, etc."

So - gender fluidity - is there a place for it? Is there a time/place when there is absolutely no place for it (perhaps using the public loos in Debenhams?) Can it help or only hinder? Are men frightened of it? Could it close the gender divide or just do even more damage (i.e. to relationships, etc?) Do we all need to be so hung up on gender definitions and stick rigidly to the "real men don't do that" brigade, or can we introduce a 'third' gender. I like the third gender idea, and I'd call it a 'person' (but then like I said, I'm biased).

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Hi Freeandhappy

Surely gender performance is on a spectrum and if we have enough fluidity then people wouldn't need or want what is such a superficial indicator of gender eg breasts or penis.

Maybe there isn't enough gender fluidity allowed in society and we are forced to identify with one gender or another, so the simulation of superficial gender stereotypes.

For the record regarding my disagreements with OxfordBags yesterday, I agree with her explanation about the difference between sex and gender and her definitions of those.

I was talking issue with the idea that 100% of gender is learned and that none of it is contributed by biological sex differences (e.g. hormones) I don't want to speak for Pinkfrocks, but I think she was saying that too.

The nature/nurture debate was getting confused with the definition of sex and that of gender.

has this thread has just turned into a battle over the definition of gender? before my DP was pregnant with ds1 I had adopted a stance of gender neutrality, we learn to accept things the more common they become, why should gender fluidity by any diffrent? if more people became gender fluid it would find its place in society and not be so taboo
maby we should strive for this sort of attitude in society?

Yes, and this might defuse some of the misogyny and patriarchy present in society. I apologise to everyone for posting so much on this thread. It's a real interest of mine.

I know how you feel dadwood Gender Fluidity and androgyny interest/influence me to no end, but I've bit my tounge on this thread as its just spiraled out of control with the argument of gender. but I will continue to follow this thread unless ive killed it with this post to see how it goes on.

Feels like society has less fluidity than previously and that gender stereotypes are narrower than ever and are hammered home relentlessly especially for young girls. I feel for my daughter who is not one bit girly although biologically she is dainty and blonde. All the girls in her school have long hair short skirts fake tans and makeup. She thinks she is a boy and wants GRS. I'm so sad for her that she can't be the kind of woman she wants as she sees no role models for her style of femininity and almost loathes femininity. I think the world is more patriarchal and misogynistic than when I was growing up.

dadwood you say you believe there are some innate gender differences that are biological. Can you give an example of a few?

No offence to pinkfrocks but I think the kind of thinking which says men are men and women are double breasted (an old buffoon of a friend of my DFs used to say that), well I think that is a pretty knee jerk and unexamined opinion clearly culturally influenced by all the gender stereotype reinforcing that is hammered home by 'women's' magazines or blue for boys pink for girls bollox. Why?

WigbyBolf i am ten times more likely to have killed the thread than you, but it's still going on.

freeandhappy since reading your posts, I have been wondering if the world isn't going backwards on the patriarchal and misogynistic front as well!

gender differences probably from biology:
OK a few examples of innate gender differences of the top of my head:

• The autism diagnosis thing I mentioned earlier
• The fact that most societies are patriarchal, even the ones with limited contact with the others. It's not a 50/50 mix.
• Most animals have gender specific behaviour, nesting, feeding etc. This is not learned in most cases but innate. Humans are animals and I would be v surprised if we were an exception.
• People with gender dysphoria have it for a reason other than learning it from their peers.
• if you change hormones, e.g. testosterone, you get a change in behaviour on the gender continnuum, e.g more agression.

disclaimer: I do not think that all gender differences derive from biology. It manifests differently in different cultures, so must be partly learned from society.

Is this what you meant?

I think there are a lot of people in the world of all different types. It doesnt strike me as particularly crazy that many of those people find it hard to identify themselves in such a strict binary way of male or female.

I think its becoming easier as people in the UK are generally much more accepting than ever before of people who dont present as entirely male or female, and theres a lot more flexibility in mens and womens roles in general.
People feeling neither male nor female is a thing, so in my opinion there has to be a place for it. A place for accepting others however they self identify, and whether it matches up to your percieved outwards appearance.

Yes that's what I meant but I also think that all those things are hard to measure in a culture which has such a vested interest in upholding gender differences as biological.
For example apparently ASD is hugely underdiagnosed in women.
I'm not terribly sure if myself here, more just thinking out loud but are you familiar with the concept of bias confirmation ie you can find evidence for any belief you hold if that's all you are looking for.

What kind of changes happen with testosterone given to biological women? Do they act more manly ie gruffer, louder, tougher. Or is the person actually Gruff we, louder, tougher. How to ascertain?

Also: you state as fact that people have gender dysphoria other than learning it from their peers. How do you come by that fact? Even the little children who present as gender dysphoric may just be bright and sensitive little people who quickly figure out that they don't fit into the narrow confines of the gender stereotype of their biological sex. With more fluidity and less blue/guns are for boys and pink/dollies are for girls they may well feel less dysphoric with their biological sex

And on and on I could go

freeandhappy Gosh, we don't have to agree!
Anyway,

Here's an example of the testosterone aggression thing, but the example could be chosen by confirmation bias from my google search!
articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2008/01/02/violent-women.aspx

• For example apparently ASD is hugely underdiagnosed in women. That's my point! It is now being diagnosed more, but in girl teenagers, having been missed in girl toddlers because the profile of skills is developed at a different rate, on average, between sexes

Even the little children who present as gender dysphoric may just be bright and sensitive little people who quickly figure out that they don't fit into the narrow confines of the gender stereotype of their biological sex.

Yes, everybody is different, but the very fact that they gender dysphoric have chosen the 'opposite' gender markers to gravitate to e.g. female clothing, in opposition to stereotypes , rather than just being more sensitive or liking cooking, makes a case for biology and not learning, but this is a hard one to argue, it's complicated, maybe not my best example.

That this thread is dominated by gender nature and nurture leads me to think that it's basic to the discussion. What do you think?

Talking of dominated, I am leaving this thread now unless someone asks me a direct question. I have commented lots and lots and think I should make room for other voices. I will be following closely though!

freeandhappy Gosh, we don't have to agree!

Er no shit thanks for letting me know that

It's an interesting discussion. Thanks OP