To ask for advice on dealing with my anxieties about my pregnancy and birth and also dealing with difficult DM and MIL and new baby

[Absofrigginlootly]

Thought I would post here as I've seen quite a few threads about difficult family relationships on here and the advice is always excellent, hope that's ok.

The situation is basically: our pfb is due end of October. Both my DM and my MIL are hard work in their own ways. I often feel exhausted/upset after spending time with them. They are both very opinionated on issues of babies/children etc. Part of me is dreading having them around with a new baby.

Anyway, so not to drip feed (sorry if this ends up looooong!) but a bit of background info on the key players here...

Me and DH: we have a great relationship, been together a very long time. He is lovely and very supportive, he is my rock, my world. But he has a very demanding job which involves him being away a lot.
We are both feeing very emotional/vulnerable (me in particular) at the moment because we've had quite a difficult road to get to this point in pregnancy with our MUCH longed for pfb (don't want to go into details as it's so personal and upsetting to talk about, but basically think 'fertility issues').
We live in a town about an hour from both sets of parents. We don't know anyone here. We have started nct to try and make some friends/build a support network.

DM: loves me in her own way but is a narcissist. She can be very self-absorbed, does not discuss feelings, makes everything about her. Has very fixed ideas about things and does not like to compromise. Can be a bit like a dog with a bone when she gets hold of something. Was very controlling growing up, which caused me no end of self esteem and body issues (she is obsessed with thin-ness). I sort of confronted her a few years back about my miserable childhood and started putting my foot down on the whole emotional blackmail front, so I'm generally fairly good at keeping her at arms length. I tend to fall down though when I'm feeling low/vulnerable...

MIL: does not show emotion (sign of weakness to her!), is thoughtless, tactless and critical. She grew up with an alcoholic father which I think has deeply affected her ability to be a warm and caring person. Also has very fixed ideas about bringing up children. Have witnessed her with DH's siblings and their children over the years and she has said/done some pretty awful things. Drove SIL into PND with her constant critising. DH does stand up to her and doesn't look for her approval in the same way that his siblings do. Anyway, generally I'm not bothered by her negative comments because I don't actually give a s**t what she thinks. But at the moment I am feeling so anxious I can't help but be affected (like when she asked the other day if we would be able to return all the baby things we'd bought if something 'went wrong') (!!!) (those of you who saw my other thread will know that it was a HUGE STEP for me to even start buying a few baby things as I feel so nervous so it really touched a nerve with me)

Anyway, I've been feeling pretty anxious during this pregnancy and spend some days in such a state that I can't leave the house. Some days are much better. I spoke to the MW the other day and said it felt like I was developing an anxiety disorder. She just gave me a leaflet for a local counsellor.

I guess where I'm at right now is feeling so apprehensive about the future....worrying about giving birth and something going wrong (to the point I can't sleep sometimes and wake up in tears), having no one for support other than DH (there is NO WAY on earth I could talk to my parents/his parents or siblings etc....we are just NOT that sort of family. They wouldn't help, they'd make it worse), and then thinking even at the end of this I'm going to have a new baby and an overbearing DM and MIL to deal with.

Any advice/hints/tips/useful non-confrontational phrases to deflect unwanted comments? Any advice on what I can do to better manage my anxiety? I am worried about developing PND.
I want both sets of parents to be involved with our child, but I want it to be a postive influence.

Wow sorry that was so long!!!! But didn't want to drip-feed.

Advice not advise

Not much to add as there is good advice here.
I met my "best" mum friend at an antenatal yoga class. Really sociable and helped me to relax. I too, was very stressed when I was pregnant (but due to different reasons).
Good luck and congratulations!

Best of best wishes for you when the baby comes. Your mum sounds a lot like mine. Narcissists can be really good with young babies/children, my narc mother was. She reverted to form a few years later though.

Try not to work yourself into a bag of nerves worrying about how they'll behave. Don't let them spoil your enjoyment of this fabulous time in your life. The most positive thing is that you have your DH onside. I think that is 90% of the battle.

Nods in total agreement and recognition at attilla's excellent post.

Attila is talking sense. (Have noted down the book rec as I hadn't heard of that one.)

I think the problem is that even if YOU change, DM and MIL will be the same and will not necessarily react in the way you want.

You need to set some rules for yourself about what you will do and how you will handle their behaviour. It will not help your child to witness you tolerating people being toxic to you.

Definitely do look into counselling, it's worth it.

Thank you for the useful phrases...I shall practice them to commit them to memory!!!!

I think the idea of a separate pay and go mobile is really good. My mum has a habit of ringing the house phone non stop until I answer. Or alternating between my mobile or house phone. I don't answer though if I'm not in the mood, I just let it ring now. But it would be nice to just switch them onto silent or off and keep my 'secret' mobile just for DH to keep in contact when he's at work.

Thank you for your thoughtful post atilla given me lots to think about. I think the main way that mum would try to manipulate the situation is that she will massively over-emphasise the importance of our child to her, put on the wounded martyr act if she doesn't get her own way/access when she wants it etc. She definitely has the capacity to use our child as a 'pawn' in her life...that's what she's always done with me. I often feel I am an 'accessory' in her life to be paraded out when it suits her.... She likes to play the doting mother to strangers and pretend everything is 'perfect' (including me looking/acting 'perfect' when growing up...there was a lot of emphasis placed on how everything looked to others) but in reality she doesn't really know anything about my life, only the headlines. She doesn't know about my depression, self esteem issues and eating problems when I was younger (I'm better now, not an issue anymore), she doesn't know about our years of fertility issues and heartache.

But I've come to accept (although it still hurts at times like these, I.e. Having a baby) that she just isn't ever going to be the sort of mother I long for. Someone to love me for who i really am. Tell me they're proud of me for who I am and what I've achieved. To love me unconditionally. To tell me everything is going to be ok. That is my dream for what a mother should represent in your life. That is the sort of mother I am determined to be for my little one.

So I have accepted that we can only ever really have a 'civil but surface' relationship. And that's what I think I can achieve for her and our child. A grandmother who's happy to be involved in the 'fun bits', spoil them with days out and (some, not lots!) presents etc. I think she would be good at that bit. I honestly do. I've given it a lot of thought over the years. I feel iam being realistic. The first sign of her nonsense, even if said in front of me, will be met with a stern bollocking and a genuine ability to follow thru on no-contact if she fails to behave.

With regards to my anxieties around the pregnancy....I am toying with the idea of a doula...someone to act as a 'mother figure/old experienced woman' I'm my life. Our nct teacher is a doula who offers a package of pre and post natal care and birth support. DH is slightly unconvinced thou as think she is a bit of a hippy! He said he'd go along with whatever I want though.
I'm also thinking of phoning my MW back and asking for a meeting to be arranged with the delivery suite manager, to discuss my anxieties around the birth. Trouble is, I'm a nurse in the NHS so I am acutely aware of how stretched things can be when you're short staffed etc (some days I used to go home and wonder how none of my major-surgical patients had died that day!)....so I feel some of my anxieties are coming from a genuine place. Others are of course a reaction to the stress and grief we've been through in the last few years, this baby is just SO precious to us.

Thank you to those of you who said I am normal to be feeling like this. It helps to read that. My MW and consultant etc are almost a bit like "you're out of the first trimester, what are you worrying about now?!"

I was reluctant about doulas as I'm not remotely into natural birth etc and certainly had no intentions of trying to resist pain relief/drs advice but my doula was very open minded, I was honest about my opinions and they generally should see their role as helping you, not trying to push you in any one direction. After the birth, my doula would go through a list of options for any particular problem, not be dogmatic as no one solution works for all babies and I really liked this approach, so much better than MIL/DMs who think what worked for them is what you have to do. Maybe you even need a new midwife, mine has been pretty reassuring.

My specific suggestion is to identify one friend as a touchstone for parenting stuff. Someone you trust and who is kind and sensible. IME, everyone has an opinion on how to be pregnant, raise a baby, etc and, if you appear unsure, they will see it as weakness and then leap in with their opinion in an effort to help. This is stressful. Whereas, if you have a go-to friend that you can bounce a few ideas off and get a little support when you need it, you can appear much more confident with everyone else and that will stop a lot of the unwanted stuff.

Living an hour away from both grannies will probably save your bacon. :)

I found the consultants and midwives to be very dismissive of anxiety about the baby tbh. They couldn't see that after three miscarriages, two of which were symptomless, I just couldn't let myself believe it would be OK.

My doula otoh, had experienced loss herself, and really made me feel like I wasn't going mad, just expressing valid feelings.

As my ds decided to arrive early, I had a continuous monitoring, on the bed, baby off to SCBU birth, and it was the doulas continuous, calm presence that made me feel like it was OK. DH tells me there were three different sets of mws there, but I never noticed. The doula also was the one to make me a cup of tea, take me for a bath, and generally mother me at a difficult time. She also took the pressure off dh who obv wanted to go and be with ds, but not to leave me on my own.

Hi Abso,

Re your comments in quote marks (my responses are underneath):-

"Thank you for your thoughtful post atilla given me lots to think about. I think the main way that mum would try to manipulate the situation is that she will massively over-emphasise the importance of our child to her, put on the wounded martyr act if she doesn't get her own way/access when she wants it etc. She definitely has the capacity to use our child as a 'pawn' in her life...that's what she's always done with me. I often feel I am an 'accessory' in her life to be paraded out when it suits her.... She likes to play the doting mother to strangers and pretend everything is 'perfect' (including me looking/acting 'perfect' when growing up...there was a lot of emphasis placed on how everything looked to others) but in reality she doesn't really know anything about my life, only the headlines. She doesn't know about my depression, self esteem issues and eating problems when I was younger (I'm better now, not an issue anymore), she doesn't know about our years of fertility issues and heartache".

Yes I can well see your mother doing that and you feel like an accessory to your life because you are one!. Its all image and artifice to these people, you've been trained by your mother to serve her. Do read the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website.

"But I've come to accept (although it still hurts at times like these, I.e. Having a baby) that she just isn't ever going to be the sort of mother I long for. Someone to love me for who i really am. Tell me they're proud of me for who I am and what I've achieved. To love me unconditionally. To tell me everything is going to be ok. That is my dream for what a mother should represent in your life. That is the sort of mother I am determined to be for my little one".

Fabulous. BTW many women like your good self who was raised by a narcissistic parent often fear that they will turn into a carbon copy of that parent. I doubt that this will happen with you because you have two qualities that your mother completely lacks; empathy and insight. Infact asking your mother to be nicer and to "have a heart" would be about as effective as spitting in the ocean.

"So I have accepted that we can only ever really have a 'civil but surface' relationship. And that's what I think I can achieve for her and our child. A grandmother who's happy to be involved in the 'fun bits', spoil them with days out and (some, not lots!) presents etc. I think she would be good at that bit. I honestly do. I've given it a lot of thought over the years. I feel iam being realistic. The first sign of her nonsense, even if said in front of me, will be met with a stern bollocking and a genuine ability to follow thru on no-contact if she fails to behave".

Now this is the part that concerns me the most. Forget having a civil but surface relationship as well because that will remain a fantasy. It is NOT possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist!!!. When a narcissist starts to act "normal" or "nicely" you make a swift exit in the opposite direction, she will be setting you up to do something really nasty to you. She will not act in the same ways to your child as she has done to you, she will be far more crafty. From observing the experiences of others as well as my own, the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. It is painful watching a narcissist interact with their grandchild because there is no interaction. It is like watching a repeat of a tv show you've always hated.

This has also happened to others on here as well:-
It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. This allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From observing the experiences of others (as well as my own), the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

Your mother still rides roughshod over your own boundaries that you try to set and maintain. You wrote, "my mum has a habit of ringing the house phone non stop until I answer. Or alternating between my mobile or house phone"). You ignore the phone but she persists in calling you anyway. Honestly if she is doing that block her number. This is also her harassing you. You would not tolerate that from anyone else, do not tolerate that behaviour from her.

My concern here is that if she says something nasty to you and or your child you will freeze and not react at the time. It only takes a pinch, a snide comment (and do not for one second think she will not go on about your child's eating habits either) or a mean look towards the child and the damage has already started. Infact that scenario has happened with others I have read about on here, the feeling that you can confront dissolves completely when you are in front of said narc parent and I am certain too you have seen your mother's narcissistic rages. It is therefore better for you and your child not to give your mother any opportunity to see your child at all; after all this is your most precious of resource.

Please bear in mind what I have written and think about it some more, please do not subject your child to any of her manipulation at all because she will do it and it will be something that you will live to regret bitterly.

Counselling could also be of great benefit to you anyway and particularly if you find the right person who has had experience in dealing with narcissistic relatives. Consider too posting on the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread.

Lots of good advice above, so will not add. Thankfully, my Nparent lives a ferry ride and a looong drive away, so no need to see more than twice a year!
Counselling, though- if you've been given a leaflet, I assume it's for Insight? A lot of CCGs have outsourced counselling to them- for once to god effect. They are faster; and can adapt the delivered service to what you require/are not restricted by the stupid 6 session rule. I would ring them and try to see where you get.Even if they only help with the anxiety you've gained. Also NHS staff has access to staff counselling- very fast, free, and not linked to place of work.

Hello again abso and thanks for the thoughtful feedback you have given everyone.

To be honest your fourth para has left me in tears as that is exactly how I feel about my own mother, who by the way has full blown NPD. I still feel acutely that loss of a mother and actually the loss of a childhood.

I have tried to soften this by having several much older women in my life as very close friends - women who are old enough to be my mother and who offer me love support and guidance. I have found this to be really effective and between them they have stopped me making mistakes, celebrated my successes and made me feel safe when I felt broken.

I have to agree with what Atilla says though about protecting your child. I can see you have excellent intentions, but what you intend to do could be very dangerous.

By the time my DM had gone way to far with me and we went NC, my DD was old enough to have her own totally engulfing relationship with DM where DM uses her in her horrible puppet master way against me. She has poisoned my relationship with my own daughter, and although it is salvaged, it is certainly damaged.

One final story, for you and anyone else lurking that has similar problems. My brother has 2 little girls. I overheard DM saying to DN1, "you love mummy don't you? and you love Daddy don't you? But you don't love DN2 do you? Everything was soooo much better before she came along." It chilled me to the core. She drips poison into that little girls head all the time to turn her against her little sister. She gets off on the control, the power.

Best of luck with the baby and with the GPs.

It sounds as if you know your way forward, OP, and have the strength and the practise to keep yoru M and MIL under control. Around the last weeks and after the birth of your baby will be extremely tricky times becuase family stuff comes heavily to the fore in your mind. Everyone reassesss what's gone on and their relatinship with their own parents.

It can be hard to handle and quite distressing. Talking to your husband about it will help, it can prepare him for your hormone-led vulnerability around that time. There might very well be times when you feel weakened and they will home in on you like shrike-birds to a nestling.

A doula or trusted female friend sounds an absolutely brilliant idea.

hampton ... how awful for your neices. Does yoru brother or SIL know? I assume there is nothing you can do .... poor poor kids.

meerka DB is in denial about DM although he does know, yes. He self medicates with alcohol and ADs to counter the effects of keeping DM in his life.

SIL is totally enmeshed and beyond help.

I am NC. Best decision of my life.

:( I guess we have to hope for a miracle and that the vileness does not affect them.

Thank you all again for your posts.

I do genuinely think iam not being naive about my child having a relationship with either grandmother. Honestly, they do both have some good qualities and I do genuinely think they have the ability to offer something positive to our child. Otherwise DH and I would go NC in a heartbeat.

Perhaps I'm not explaining things very well. I honestly don't think that things would ever go as far/as badly as the examples people have given above. Yes, my DM can be narassistic...but like any personality trait there is a sliding scale. She is certainly not at the far end of having a personality disorder. If her behaviour is pointed out she can reflect and modify, especially if she is made to feel embarrassed by what she has done/said. A lot of her 'controlling behaviours' do genuinely come from a place of her desperately wanting the best for me (it's just sometimes her version of what is best). But if I put my foot down firmly and say "I am doing it this way so please drop it" then she does back off. We have made some real progress in our relationship over the last 5 years. Mainly because I have freed myself mentally of any obligation to have a relationship with her if she oversteps the mark. Honestly, please be reassured we will NOT put our child at risk in any way.

I have a Degree/postgrad in Psychology, as well as being a trained nurse, with experience of working in HV and witnessing the effects on many children of dysfunctional families. And of course, my own experiences to draw from. I do appreciate the stakes. (Sorry if that sounds dismissive or arrogant in any way...I'm not trying to be, I just mean that I do feel able to objectively weigh up the situation).

Me and DH have had more of a discussion about using a doula and I have contacted one to arrange a meeting to discuss and see if we 'gel'.

DH has also decided (independently - he's been thinking about it for a few days) about going to see his mum and lay down the ground rules. I.e. That she is either a positive influence and does not say negative/tactless/critical things or she simply won't be around us or the baby. I think this would have a big impact because, like I said, she has already started making a big effort over the last few years to be nicer. She was round the other week and making a big effort to gush about the "lovely dinner" we had made her. I could see she was really trying.

Would definitely like to hear more from people that have had similar anxieties about pregnancy and birth after fertility problems or loss, as this is the main thing I am struggling with right now.....how did you cope? What did you do? What support did you arrange? Do you think me trying to arrange a meeting with the delivery suite manager and MW to discuss my concerns would be valuable??