To ask for advice on dealing with my anxieties about my pregnancy and birth and also dealing with difficult DM and MIL and new baby

[Absofrigginlootly]

Thought I would post here as I've seen quite a few threads about difficult family relationships on here and the advice is always excellent, hope that's ok.

The situation is basically: our pfb is due end of October. Both my DM and my MIL are hard work in their own ways. I often feel exhausted/upset after spending time with them. They are both very opinionated on issues of babies/children etc. Part of me is dreading having them around with a new baby.

Anyway, so not to drip feed (sorry if this ends up looooong!) but a bit of background info on the key players here...

Me and DH: we have a great relationship, been together a very long time. He is lovely and very supportive, he is my rock, my world. But he has a very demanding job which involves him being away a lot.
We are both feeing very emotional/vulnerable (me in particular) at the moment because we've had quite a difficult road to get to this point in pregnancy with our MUCH longed for pfb (don't want to go into details as it's so personal and upsetting to talk about, but basically think 'fertility issues').
We live in a town about an hour from both sets of parents. We don't know anyone here. We have started nct to try and make some friends/build a support network.

DM: loves me in her own way but is a narcissist. She can be very self-absorbed, does not discuss feelings, makes everything about her. Has very fixed ideas about things and does not like to compromise. Can be a bit like a dog with a bone when she gets hold of something. Was very controlling growing up, which caused me no end of self esteem and body issues (she is obsessed with thin-ness). I sort of confronted her a few years back about my miserable childhood and started putting my foot down on the whole emotional blackmail front, so I'm generally fairly good at keeping her at arms length. I tend to fall down though when I'm feeling low/vulnerable...

MIL: does not show emotion (sign of weakness to her!), is thoughtless, tactless and critical. She grew up with an alcoholic father which I think has deeply affected her ability to be a warm and caring person. Also has very fixed ideas about bringing up children. Have witnessed her with DH's siblings and their children over the years and she has said/done some pretty awful things. Drove SIL into PND with her constant critising. DH does stand up to her and doesn't look for her approval in the same way that his siblings do. Anyway, generally I'm not bothered by her negative comments because I don't actually give a s**t what she thinks. But at the moment I am feeling so anxious I can't help but be affected (like when she asked the other day if we would be able to return all the baby things we'd bought if something 'went wrong') (!!!) (those of you who saw my other thread will know that it was a HUGE STEP for me to even start buying a few baby things as I feel so nervous so it really touched a nerve with me)

Anyway, I've been feeling pretty anxious during this pregnancy and spend some days in such a state that I can't leave the house. Some days are much better. I spoke to the MW the other day and said it felt like I was developing an anxiety disorder. She just gave me a leaflet for a local counsellor.

I guess where I'm at right now is feeling so apprehensive about the future....worrying about giving birth and something going wrong (to the point I can't sleep sometimes and wake up in tears), having no one for support other than DH (there is NO WAY on earth I could talk to my parents/his parents or siblings etc....we are just NOT that sort of family. They wouldn't help, they'd make it worse), and then thinking even at the end of this I'm going to have a new baby and an overbearing DM and MIL to deal with.

Any advice/hints/tips/useful non-confrontational phrases to deflect unwanted comments? Any advice on what I can do to better manage my anxiety? I am worried about developing PND.
I want both sets of parents to be involved with our child, but I want it to be a postive influence.

Wow sorry that was so long!!!! But didn't want to drip-feed.

Firstly, many congratulations on your pregnancy

Now is a good time to set down the 'rules' with DM & MIL for when your PFB arrives. Maybe set a time for them to ring when your DH is at home - you can say that you'll be sleeping when the baby sleeps & won't want to be woken. And set out visiting & you are going to have to be firm about it.

And if MIL makes remarks like the one you quoted I would just tell her how insensitive she is being & please to think before opening her mouth. You are going to have to be tough with them & it will be much easier to do it now than when you have PFB & are feeling tired & hormonal.

As to the anxiety, I would make an appointment with your GP & talk to them about it & your worries about PND.

And have you had a look to see if there is an active Mumsnet Local group in your area? If there is I am sure you'd get support & a chance to meet people via that.

Christ on a bike, your MIL sounds bloody awful to make such a crass comment about the returning baby things ... how could she say something so hurtful?

I'm sure other MNs here will be more helpful with advice - for me, I'd detach massively, especially from MIL and DM in the run up to the birth of your beautiful child. Start as you mean to go on. Good that your DH is lovely and supportive, but as you say, he's away a lot, so it's really really necessary that you set ground rules right NOW.

I know you're going to get a whole load of great advice here.

Your the mum now as baby grows so will your own confidence the confidence to say NO.

Don't discuss anything you feel anxious about with them as there opinions aren't likely to be helpful or reassuring. Absolutely make sure you get out the house to baby groups to meet other mums so you don't get stuck on your own thinking over the same issues again and again. Think about a birth and post partum doula - the right one can be very reassuring, especially if your other support is lsnt great. See MIL and DM only when you're feeling good for short periods on your terms. DH has to make sure you don't get pushed into anything.

Why do you want both sets of parents to be involved with your child?

Genuine question! Do you think you want THEM involved, or do you really want the grandparents you think your DC should have?

You may want it to be a positive influence, but that may not be the case. You can set some boundaries and ensure they are firm, but you may need to be prepared for them to leap across them. Then you have to be ready to stick to the consequences.

I honestly think that distance is the only way here. You are already developing anxiety in anticipation. I would be refusing to have them to stay for a start. So they would need to book B&Bs if they wanted to visit for longer than a day. Do not be duped into believing one or other of them will come to stay to 'help' if your DH has to go away for work.

On top of that I would be making it clear that they would be shown the door at the first piece of unsolicited and unhelpful advice.

You poor thing, I can really empathise as when I was pg with ds (after 3 mcs) I was incredibly anxious that something would go wrong, and found it very hard to buy anything.

Right now, you don't need any more stress - so don't give your mum or MIL any chance to to give you any. Don't answer the phone to MIL, let dh deal with her and tell him that you don't need to hear anything negative. Let the anserphone deal with your mum, then phone her when you want (and remember you don't have to tell anyone the truth if you think you'll get hassle), and there can be a knock at the door from someone you must answer to at any time can't there .

What you are going to have, is a lovely, new baby and a loving DH. Thats worth a lot, and if you and DH are honest with each other, you will be fine without involving any family. Oh, and theres nothing you can't find a solution to on MN! But a doula would be someone who is just there for you, non judgemental, and a support - it might really help to have someone who could come round afterwards for a couple of hours at a time to help you

Yes my pp doula was so much more helpful and reassuring than DM or mil, my dh also works away a lot. And now my other mum friends are invaluable. your anxiety may be exacerbated by a lack of reassuring experienced mother figures in your life, not saying that you might not also need treatment but a genuinely friendly ear can work wonders. Some days I just needed someone to tell me the baby wasn't going to die/take a second look at her and say she looked fine, iyswim.

set your boundaries and what you say goes!
don't ask m or mil for advice of any kind. just say "thank you I will bear that in mind" if they offer any unsolicited advice. seek out breastfeeding classes/new born coffee shop support groups.

get /buy in support so

a port partum doula/maternity nurse/nanny for few hours a day/night even if every other day for first few weeks to support you....

a cleaner/housekeeper or just a willing student looking for extra cash to look after the house / ironing / cooking

online shopping set up a weekly list to which you can add nappies etc as needed

I wouldn't let either of these women within a mile of a precious new-born, and I'm on the fence about them having any contact with young children either.

Make it clear that you want NO-ONE visiting or turning up unannounced until you tell they are welcome. Then double-lock all doors and windows, and take the phone off the hook

"I want both sets of parents to be involved with our child, but I want it to be a positive influence"

You don't have to think about this now, but I would consider how this could come about after the way you have described them! I reckon it would take a bloody miracle. On the other hand, they could continue to be a very negative influence in your own life but be exemplary grandmothers. My money's on not.

I think under the circs, how long you have wanted this baby and all the other difficulties in reaching this point to NOT be anxious would be remarkable. You don't sound in the least abnormal to me. All things considered you are more likely to be a happy and competent mother with a delightfully contented baby than not.

First of all congratulations! This is an exciting time for you and your dh and it's so good to hear that he is really supportive and loving.
When expecting a baby there are anxieties and I think you seem to have good reasons to be feeling some extra anxieties (because of your past history) without the behaviour of MIL and DM making these feelings worse. So firstly, don't be worried, uncertainty about having a new baby is normal, and you need to focus on your Wellbeing and happiness. Theres some great advice here already, but I will add some more. Now is the time to concentrate on you, your dh and your new arrival, and make sure you both understand that and that your DM and MIL do too, maybe your DH needs to spell this out. You mention your SIL? Could she be an ally and friendly support to you as she has had similar issue with MIL?
You say you don't know many people - you have already taken the first steps by joining the local nct - a great start as it will ensure you meet some new mums ( and dads ) who can share those questions and "fears" and help each other through. Do you have a local class for expectant mums at the local pool or gym where you could perhaps go for a swim or massage to help you relax and (maybe when you feel ready) use it after baby arrives too. Also contact your GP and go to see them with your dh and explain all your feelings, they will help and support you, your Mw does not sound very supportive, so explaining all to the GP will also be useful for you to have someone to talk to about your concerns. The main thing is you are and remain in control of your own home, decisions and what happens next - it will be an exciting , tiring and joyful journey, so please relax and enjoy. And of course join your local mumsnet group too! Best wishes.

Sorry to hear about your family worries.

I wonder if you would consider meeting with the counsellor? Lots of counsellors specialise in dealing with family issues and it can be really useful for helping you to set appropriate boundaries with your family.

I would also try and get your DH involved as much as possible in developing strategies for dealing with their negative behaviours, it will be easier if you can present a united front.

I wish you all the best.

Hi there
We've moved this to relationships

I agree with other posters who say you are confusing wanting your pfb to have contact with their lovely grandparents, whilst overlooking the obvious fact that their Gps are not lovely.

I know it is hard bit you really need to make a distinction and mourn the loss of the family I am sure you deserve, as that is not the family in front of you.

Secondly, it will be easier than you think. when pfb arrives they will release your inner tigress! This should make it easier for you to become the protective assertive mum you need to be in a situation like this.

definitely start as you mean to go on. Don't get sucked into texting them when you go into labour, let them know pfb has arrived when you are home and settled but make it clear you will NOT be having guests until you notify them you are ready, and that you are quite prepared to let them travel for an hour and have a wasted journey with an answered front door if they try to defy you.

I would get a cheap PAYG for DH to call only so if you need a bit of down time, a nap, you can turn the other phones off and tell DH he only uses PAYG number if it's urgent.

Re when DH is away, you just need to limit contact to a level that you are comfy with and don't allow yourself to be bullied.

And remember that the less you tell them, the less they can criticise it, and that No is a complete sentence.

Many congratulations on your pregnancy

Op. You are gonna have to be a bitch to both of these women and start standing up for yourself. I don't mean being nasty but you need to put yourself and family first and you need to say it straight up and out immediately if they are reasonably pissing you off.

No more delicate bullshit tact round them anymore and start growing a pair because only then will they start respecting you.

Congrats!

Get the counselling, it helps.

Now, you need to write a book. A leaflet. 'Our baby'. All scenarios, each with brief instructions eg 'DH away on business'. No visitors, thank you. Please phone (once a day maximum) to check that baby and I are ok. 'Staying with us'. Please don't do this. We are coping with a new baby, we can't cope with visitors as well.
etc etc.

Make if very plain and simple. And honest. Stating what you want.
Writing will help you clarify, even if you never hand it over to grandmas.

You could always write it as if it had been handed out by some 'authority' on childcare and you were only passing it on ...

As I read on here the other day...
No is a sentence, practice it. If you don't want them round say no..don't take excuses or emotional blackmail, just say no

I'm sorry that doesn't work for us right now, I'll be in touch at a more convenient time - also might help

These 2 destructive people aren't worth the stress they cause. If they upset you, then leave or hang up.
If you're brave enough say, that's not very nice to bitchy comments
As for the narcissist then I'd say actually I'd like to talk about the baby or me, we talk about you all the time.
Start practicing now. You can go no contact if you have to. If mil rings you can always give the phone to DH.

Seriously don't put up with this shit, you are far more important than them

Ooh humble I luffs the idea of the official looking booklet.

Forgot to say OP, get caller ID if you don't already have it so you can let your answering machine pay for itself.

Abso,

"I want both sets of parents to be involved with our child, but I want it to be a postive influence".

How do you think that is at all going to happen given the ways they behave towards you?. That simply will not happen because neither your mother not your MIL are built that way; they are dysfunctional people and are not good to be at all around. Such people do not make for being good grandparents in terms of role models. It is NOT, repeat NOT, your fault they are like this.

If you find them too difficult to deal with, it will be the same deal for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. Your job amongst many will be to protect your child from such malign influences. Your boundaries for the two of them will have to be raised a lot higher than they currently are (they are way way too low). It may be that ultimately you will not have any sort of relationship with either of them.

Societal convention is not the be all and end all either. You will all be happier without either woman in your lives frankly; neither of them bring anything at all positive into your lives.

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they’re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents’ (and society’s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate firsthand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children’s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

Do not be that well intentioned parent!.

The feelings you have regarding the ways in which your mother treated you will likely be put into sharper focus when you become a parent yourself. I would also now be reading "If you had controlling parents" written by Dr Dan Neuharth.

Counselling for yourself would also be an excellent idea; I would look at BACP. You need to find someone who can fit in with you so the first person you see may not be the one for you (counsellors are like shoes, you need to find someone that fits). Also you need to find someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Hi all, thank you for all the helpful comments and suggestions so far.

I am thinking of counselling, but the leaflet the MW gave me was for GP-linked counsellors who only do 6 sessions, which i don't think would be enough....so I think I might have to look into private longer-term options. The only thing is weighing up the expense of that, vs something more practical like hiring a cleaner. (Oh if only we could win to be lottery!)
I've read the book 'toxic parents' which talks a lot about the kinds of things you say above atilla so i am aware of the issues/stakes involved.... In fact it inspired me to out my foot down to all her crap about 5 years ago and like I said in my OP I'm pretty good at not getting sucked into her nonsense (although occasionally I fall into the trap of just ignoring her comments at the time and then reflecting afterwards and wishing if said something). But often if that happens now I will send her a text outlining what she said and why it upset me (she never replies) but at least I know she has read what I have to say. And things are much better now than they were 5 years ago.

Same goes with MIL.....DH and I started withdrawing from them around the same time and you can see the penny has dropped with her that if she's not nice to us, or at least making an effort then she just won't see us. She doesn't try to pull even a 10th of the crap with us that DH's siblings put up with. Because I think she knows it won't fly with us.

Answering the questions about why we want them involved at all is hard to say. I know I've outlined their worst qualities above, but they can both be loving, in their own ways and both of them (my mum in particular) are very devoted to children so I genuinely do think they both have the potential to be lovely grandmothers.... As long as my mum doesn't get to 'control' the situation (or our child!). So this will need to be carefully 'managed' by myself and DH. I will NOT be allowing either of them unsupervised access to the baby...I'm going to be a full time SAHM so childcare won't come into it at all.
The main problem with my mum is that she likes to control everything and everyone....but I can assure you that I WONT let her have that sort of influence on our child!!!!!

I am absolutely determined that she won't have a negative influence and if old habits start to creep in I will be making it VERY CLEAR that she either behaves herself, or she won't be seeing her grandchild. No ifs or buts. I will NOT let my child go thru what I went through....in fact having fought so hard for our precious baby I am even more determined to protect our lovely little family. I can feel my inner mother-bear start to roar!!

I guess the main reason for posting was to get advice for the best sort of non-confrontational phrases to use.
And my main problem right now is my anxiety (which is 99% focused on the pregnancy itself and something going wrong, and not really about my DM/MIL)....but this anxiety puts me in a vulnerable position to be able to effectively rebuff their nonsense, rather than when I am feeling happy and settled.. I am just feeling quite scared about giving birth and something going wrong with the baby, not having anough MW support, being left alone and mono one spotting something going wrong for example. And I feel quite alone because I don't have any support apart from DH.

And no one spotting......not mono one!!!

Describe them being "loving in their own ways". I think you would find that hard to answer.

You also need to think a lot more as to why you exactly want either of them in your lives now. Societal convention is itself not a good enough reason.

There are really no best sort of or non confrontational phrases you can use because they cannot or do not listen to what you say to them. Everything you say to them could be turned against you particularly if you are giving them what you consider to be constructive advice which could be seen by one or both of them as criticism. You could well be shouted down or ignored.

At least you are trying to reassert yourself by having boundaries; this is indeed progress on your part. Your DH and yourself will have to present a united front without any waivering from either of you as to how you proceed going forward.

I would be extremely wary of letting either of these two women have any access at all to your child, particularly your mother as you describe her as a narcissist. Your mother made the terrible choice not to love and their lack of empathy cannot be at all overemphasised. If she was obsessed with thinness when you were younger she could again use that type of abuse against your child.

She will remain a narcissist around your child and she could very well harm your child right in front of your eyes. A pinch, a snide comment about weight, even a look; its all done right in front of you and you will not be able to stop it. You bringing new life into this world does not change her fundamentally, she is still a narcissist but will now be a narcissist grandparent. What you want and what you may well end up with are two very different things here.

It is highly unlikely that your NPD parent will interact with your children in exactly the same way they did with you. At least, not in your presence. They have adapted their methods to the new situation of you having a family of your own. They know they don't have the same power and control they used to so they usually switch to sneakier methodologies. This allows you to think that they have changed from what they were when you were growing up. From observing the experiences of others (as well as my own), the NPD grandparent will use their grandchildren in the same way they would use an inanimate tool. Without regard for the humanity of your child, that child becomes a tool in the hand of your NPD parent to hurt you. This will always result in moral and/or emotional harm being done to your child as well.

The actual mechanics of how the NPD grandparent will misuse their relationship to their grandchildren will vary. Generally, they will either over-value or under-value the grandchild as a means to get to you. Often, when they over-value, it is the objective of the Ngrandparent to steal the child from you. I mean that in both senses, physically and emotionally. Ngrandparents are known for so much trash-talking against you behind your back to your own child or children that they want to go live with grandma or grandpa, or the Ngrandparents simply inspire rebellion of the child against you (I have seen instances of this behaviour on MN and those threads are really sad). They steal the hearts of the grandchildren. Sometimes, they will battle for physical custody of a grandchild after their slander campaign against you has won them powerful allies. Many times the Ngrandparent has a lot of extra cash to throw around since they are done raising a family. They may successfully exploit the natural selfishness of the child by using cash or toys to lure them. I have read heart-breaking stories of these kinds of situations often enough that I recognize the clear danger any narcissist grandparent represents. They can even steal your children's hearts from you when the children near adulthood with promises of money, houses, cars, college tuition, etc. as bait.

Would you consider only seeing them after the birth in their own houses?

I think people seem to get very anxious when people descend on top of them post birth, and of course you can't control how long they stay.

Whereas saying "No, we'll come to you on XXX date" might a) make you feel more in control and b) the visit can be MUCH shorter. Yes, it demands you travel to them, but it doesn't have to be immediately after you gove birth or anything.

Of course it depends in where they live.

In our case, both sets live quite far away. But honestly I would rather a car journey that I've planned in advance and to be able to leave when I want to. Feigning illness if neccessary! The thoughts of all of them visiting in my little inner sanctum whilst I'm sat in my dressing gown and expecting to be made tea.....

Only advice I can give would be this (no idea if it would work for you or your family, but here you go)...

Agree a timescale with your husband for after the birth when you will NOT receive visitors. We had 3 or 4 weeks with our DS1 where it was just us - we then visited grandparents at a time suitable to us. We chose to visit them, rather than have them come to us, as it felt easier to leave and retreat to our home than to ask them to leave, if you know what I mean. This gives time to get to grips being parents and sets out from the start that you are organising access on your terms. Also gives a chance for hormones / lack of sleep etc to settle down before having to manage other folk. When you get home from the hospital, it's your DH's job to police this and act as enforcer!

Re anxiety - I'd recommend some meditation / breathing exercises and setting up some relaxation anchors if you can as they can be very useful.

Phrases I find useful in addition to those previously mentioned are:

'That's very interesting, thanks, I'll bear it in mind', accompanied by a sweet smile and no intention of even remembering whatever 'advice' you've just been given.

'We've got a few ideas about that, but I'll be sure to put that on the list too, thanks', accompanied with smile and intention as above!

And for in a few years....

'We appreciate your thought / intention but we'd prefer it if you did X / didn't do Y as we're trying to teach MiniLootly about Z', where Z is something that will make whatever they're doing inappropriate.

'Did you mean to be so rude?' accompanied by a raised eyebrow.

A final phrase to keep in mind if all else fails....'back off, bitch'

In the early days ensure your DH fields all calls, visitors and enquiries. An excellent excuse to use is that the midwife has said you mustn't have too many visitors/ too long etc.

Make him use totally clear language with no room for being persuaded otherwise if you aren't up to seeing people. Agree trying to go to them after the first few weeks if possible as it's easier to leave than to chuck guests out.

Have no overnighters, just a clearly defined time ie 'we will arrive around 2.30 but need to be away by 4', or whatever.

I agree that most grandparents have lots to offer and if possible have regular contact, it would be really sad for all of you if they didn't see the new baby. Just make sure they know from the start that you are the parents. Agree with the bland responses rather than getting into debates about baby rearing. You might even need advise sometimes, who knows?

Enjoy this lovely time and with a bit of clever forward planning together you and DH should be able to manage this situation.

Btw I'm a midwife. I also took a pretty strong dislike to mil in the early days of ds1. It was a bit unwarranted but in the early days all new mums are hypersensitive. Do see your GP around your anxiety. Try some mindfulness apps, too they can be really helpful.