"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Shadows it sounds like you've hit the nail on the head there and I hope that this new knowledge does help you get over her death fully, as it sounds like it has blighted your life for too long already.

Sorry, should introduced myself: long time lurker here but don't think I've ever posted before.

Hi shadows and tara

it sounds like you've had a real lightbulb moment shadows and that your grandmother was indeed quite a lot more poisonous than it seemed. I suspect you might be reassessing your childhood and family for some years to come.

How did she take people disagreeing with her?

I hope it hasn't affected your relationships with your cousins too much.

I have no relationship with any of that side of my family now, my mother has spread the idea that I'm an unstable liar and so they've chosen to side with her. It's fine, it's not a great loss and I have my children and friends. I'm not sure I remember people disagreeing with her tbh. I'm thinking really hard and I just can't ever remember a time when people challenged her.

and yes her death has been a looming thing in my life for far too long.

hell, Im sorry about your mother. what is it about poisonous people that they love doing this? ive been on the receiving end of it from my own wildly mentally ill mother (anyone who stood up to her was mad or bad) and from a stepmother who disliked me intensely and wanted me out of the house.

Nasty stuff.

It's weird how it suddenly struck you on the bus, Shadows , but it's great that you've got new insight into your childhood. I imagine it's difficult to see the abuse when you're the golden child.

Meerka I've seen you mention lots of variations on parents before and it's awful that they were all so toxic for you in different ways.

I'm more than ever convinced that my own problems are minor compared with the stuff some of you have had to suffer, but I've now ordered both books (Toxic Parents and Controlling Parents) and I'll work my way though and see what I think afterwards.

Tara do you want to share what brings you here? I imagine there are lots of people reading and learning a lot from these threads but not posting. I should have done that more myself, rather than just reading a bit of the introduction and plunging straight in. Oh well, I'm catching up now.

I do consider myself extremely lucky in my adoptive mother and in my MIL.

It's odd, there's the discussion threads on trolls in Relatioships ... I do wonder if some people think I'm making stuff up. (i promise I'm not, half wish i was, though if I was there'd be a whole different set of problems)

On plunging straight into this thread ... that is fine! you don't have to have studied the past to post =)

If it's all the same, I'll carry on lurking for the time being. I'd find it hard to write anything specific about my parents without outing myself, but I'll give some thought to whether it's possible.

Thanks for the cuppa!

Welcome Tea, feel free to lurk or post, everyone's welcome. Hi Shadow.
Hello, thebride and Meerka. Hope everyone is well. I'm OK...been busy which is taking my mind off the nutter. Got another therapt session on Friday.

another 2 days gone and no binge eating...well I did but it was on ice poles, i'm trying to limit the damage by eating those instead of high calorie rubbish. was close to going mad on cake tonight after this evenings phone call but I phoned a friend after so couldn't eat. its not ideal but it worked.
I have quite a specialist job (I know i'm not going into much detail but i'm not sure if she comes on here) and have been told by her maybe i'm not good enough to do it. I am, I know I am but its hard when you hear your not good enough again.
I still can't quite believe this is not my fault, what if I was really hard work as a child and its all my fault. surely if they were bad parents someone outside the family would have done something.
I hope everyone else here is doing ok.

newdaytomorrow

I am wondering whether your mother is actually a narcissist in terms of personality because they always drum into their victims that they are not good enough. Narcissistic mothers often have a golden child/ scapegoat dynamic going on as well.

If anyone has failed here it is your mother. It is NOT your fault that she is the way she is; her own family of origin did that lot of damage to her. You were not a difficult child either, she was an inadequate parent who completely failed you.

I would think that your binge eating is directly linked to your mother's toxic behaviour towards you and you use being eating as a way of coping with depression and low self esteem. Did she comment often on your weight or did she obsessively watch her weight when you were growing up?.

I do hope you get the help you so need and also think that talking to a counsellor who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment would also help you going forward.

I often give counsel on here but now its my turn to ask you for your thoughts and perceived wisdom.

My toxic FIL is in hospital having tests and is likely to remain in there for the next few days.

How do I feel about him being in hospital, well at the risk of sounding callous to some, not a great deal apart from well its never great to need tests done. There is as yet no diagnosis. I feel a great deal more for my DH in terms of sympathy because I have been able to detach myself more readily (told him this). DH does not have this luxury and he feels that although his father has been rotten he is now an old man. I can see his point but I cannot readily get past that. My sympathy for FIL is at a premium anyway due to his past behaviour of sheer indifference towards us as a family unit (and not just us either).

Thoughts as always from you all are most welcomed.

Hi everyone! I have been reading these threads for a while. Cut my violent abusive sister off 20 years ago, (well actually she cut me off first and I've refused to make up since). Recently cut my drunk abusive father off, (took me longer as I felt sorry for his sad little life), and have just cut my mum off, I haven't 'officially' told her yet, but was recently abused by sister again out of the blue and totally unprovoked, and my mother tried to brush it under the carpet/turn it around so it was as if I created the drama by not accepting it. Finding it really hard to come to terms with her choosing my toxic sister over me. She has been enabling my sister all our lives and choosing her, but this time I kind of gave her an ultimatum (not as in you must never see sister again, but basically she couldn't be online friends with us both at the same time, as this allowed sister a window back into my life, hence the bullying starting again, and she really couldn't choose at first, came offline for a week, but is now back on with my sister). Feel like I've 'wasted' a lot of my adult life trying to make a relationship work between my mum and me, mostly 'for the sake of my children' although we've only seen her once this year anyway, so it's no great loss. Actually feel like I've wasted a he'll of a lot of time on these losers for no reason at all, so think that's why I'm having trouble with this final NC.

attilla being detached is a natural consequence of his indifferent and toxic behaviour ... I fear that the phrase 'you reap what you sow' applies.

The crux really is your husband, trying to get that balance between what he can live with and not getting drawn in/upset.

You're the one who knows the situation and what will happen if your husband gets involved to some degree. Will he end up being put through the wringer? I would suggest that if he can keep his calm, then to make a proportional effort. Ie, maybe go see him once in those few days and keep it short, keep it neutral as long as FIL doesn't live too far away. If he does, then just ring. If he's going to get upset, then either just ring or (if he can live with it) simply don't engage at all.

These are tests, aren't they, not results. So they could come up with something, or with nothing. Either way, mild contact seems reasonable. Unless your husband is likely to come back having been put through hell, in which case let the FIL carry on without him.

Good luck, you're always here for people, hope that you can negotiate all this without too much upset.

newday Im afriad one of the things I've realised is that no matter how bad parents are, other people are often simply unable to get involved. Neighbours and friends will be told to take a hike. Wider family often either don't know or equally, don't dare, or perhaps don't care. Even older siblings have very limited capacity to help if someone is being victimized by their parents.

But no one deserves to be told that they aren't good enough and that they are difficult children etc. That's often about the parents' issues, not the child; only children are such very convenient targets.

Have you considered therapy? it's not for everyone but it really can help.

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is a great book btw, it's really worth reading.

iforgottotellyou, welcome.

It sounds as therés a great deal of regret for all the wasted effort. It sounds as if your mother has actually made little or no effort to see your children, which is a poor show. I suspect you are very angry ? Possibly a bit at yourself for trying so hard for so long on a cuase that's lost? (maybe Im guessing too far, tell me if I'm mistaken!)

It's a very hard thing to cut off from family, which people who have nice families really don't get. But if it is the right thing for your survival, then it's the right decision. You might find that you feel angry for a long time, hopefully though with them rather than yourself (if you do feel cross with yourself). Also sad, wishing you had a loving family instead of the one you're landed with.

Thank you Meerka so very much, your reply was most helpful to me .

I would agree that the crux here is DH; I am fully prepared or as prepared as I can be to help him through this. Your words "proportional effort" are apt, we live quite near them but we do not see them all that often anyway (also DH can do calm very well!). Low level contact is indeed reasonable and this is what we've been doing to date. DH feels that he needs to support his mother and make life as easy as possible for her.

is his mother as toxic as his father?

Attila My feeling is that the only support that is required here is that of your DH. I don't see that you would need to be overly involved in visiting etc. UNLESS your presence there would prevent your FIL from being an arse to your DH.

What is the story with the MIL? if she is an enabler, if your H has suffered at the hands of his DF, then again detached tolerance of her is best.

if you wanted to do a shop for her, it could be done online etc, no need to go there if you found that counterproductive.

Are there any other siblings that could share in this?

Thank you for the welcome Meerka. I don't think I've ever felt anger towards any of them. Just completely baffled that I'm the 'nice' one and everyone sides with the nasty one. My husband thinks it's because my mother sees me as the less needy one (think there's probably a bit of jealousy from everyone else too, as despite their best efforts to ruin me, I've come out on top). I've always done my best for everyone, not to score points, just that I am genuinely a good person! Yet I have been treated with such disregard. (That's putting it very mildly! !) I shouldn't have a problem letting go. I think it's just so deeply ingrained that family is important. I know my mum will probably contact in a couple of months or so, with the classic 'not been in touch as I've been ill' fabricated scenario! And hope to move on without discussion. I feel like I need 'closure' (hate that word lol) like 'you've done this, this and this wrong' (don't often point it out at the time as don't want to hurt her) so as to offer an explanation as to why we can't continue, but if she dosent know now what's wrong she will never ' get it'. I'm sure deep down she knows, but it's the classic keep the toxic one happy as the others cause less fuss.
Just feel so cheated as I know I am a lovely daughter to have lol, its been such a waste. But she will never change. Incidentally she will go out of her way for other people, just not me.

newday Re. your job – does your mother work there too? Is she your boss? What qualifies her to comment on your competence and capacity at work? Please don’t listen to anything like that. She is trying to make herself feel good by making you feel bad. Don’t let her succeed! You are good enough, and I’m sure you are doing a great job. All children are hard work. It’s not your fault. Nobody outside the family would have intervened because they would only have your mother’s version of events to go on, people tend not to listen to the child – and anyway, you were so brainwashed by her, you wouldn’t have known what to say.

Attila I don’t know the background so please forgive me if I’ve got this wrong, but just based on what you wrote: It’s a shame that your DH hasn’t managed to detach more from his father. I think that you have to support your DH even if he wants to do a lot more than your FIL deserves, because otherwise you run the risk of becoming the bad guy. If you persuade him not to get drawn in, then if FIL dies, guilt will kick in for your DH and he will blame you for stopping him. If the diagnosis isn’t so bad then try to get him to extricate himself again.

Adding, after reading your second post – Is your MIL toxic too? I think the guilt would be the big thing for me, so try to work on getting your DH to see that he needn’t feel guilty about not helping people who have damaged him in the past and have the potential to do so again.

Welcome Iforgot ! It must be very painful having your mother choose your toxic sister over you. We all want our mother’s unconditional love and it seems as if you thought she was the best one in your toxic family so it must be very painful to have to make the decision to cut her off too. But if the main thing she was bringing to your life was pain and upset then really, you’ve made the only decision you could. Possibly your mother sides with your sister because it’s easier – if your sister is manipulative and nasty, she could give your mother a hard time if your mother didn’t fall into line with what she wants. Because you’re the nice one, it’s easier for your mother to hurt you?

As someone (Attila?) said upthread, living well is the best revenge you can get. So the fact that you have “come out on top” despite everything is a credit to you and I hope it makes you feel better in time.

thebrideishigh,

Re your comment to me:-

"Attila I don’t know the background so please forgive me if I’ve got this wrong, but just based on what you wrote: It’s a shame that your DH hasn’t managed to detach more from his father. I think that you have to support your DH even if he wants to do a lot more than your FIL deserves, because otherwise you run the risk of becoming the bad guy. If you persuade him not to get drawn in, then if FIL dies, guilt will kick in for your DH and he will blame you for stopping him. If the diagnosis isn’t so bad then try to get him to extricate himself again".

Yes you are correct, its a huge pity that he has not managed to detach more although he is very detached from his dad generally speaking; there is really no relationship to speak of there. The sense of obligation in particular to his mother however, is very strong. He has a real desire to make her life as easy as possible.

"Adding, after reading your second post – Is your MIL toxic too? I think the guilt would be the big thing for me, so try to work on getting your DH to see that he needn’t feel guilty about not helping people who have damaged him in the past and have the potential to do so again".

MIL is toxic and works differently from FIL. She is very much the I'm in charge alternating with martyr type. I have often asked DH in the past how he would feel if his father died. He did not give me a ready answer. I think he's going to feel quite conflicted going forward. I don't think he has much if any real guilt with regards to his dad because he really has not been a father to him.

thebrideishigh

I very much appreciate yours along with all the other responses made to me today. It has all helped me a great deal.

Sincere thanks to your good self, Hissy and Meerka.

MIL sounds more of a problem than FIL actually. Both the martyr and the In Charge phases could possibly lead her to trying to both dominate and be supported in a bad way by your husband.

I think that your husband and you can be involved but need to be very, very clear on boundaries and just how involved you get. I'm extrapolating and guessing here but it sounds like the sort of situation where your husband could get sucked into his life and his mother's becoming entwined rather with a decent, 'legitimate' distance between them.

Maybe talk out how far he gets involved with them if various scenarios happen, and how to retain a healthy distance?