"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Yeah i do see what you mean. it's a bit of a lovely dream, isn't it. You only see the golden reunitings but they are really nice =)

Feeling a bit down this evening. Can't believe she's still ignoring me. I know she would say I started it, but I can't believe she would rather never see me or my beautiful children, her GRANDCHILDREN again than apologise.
Was thinking I'll be sorting out one less photo calendar this year (I do them for Dbro, PiLs and a family friend who loves them and one for us) and it made me really really sad. Is that silly after all she's done?

you're in mourning love. mourning the loss of hope of things ever being 'normal'

remember that you didn't choose this.

she would rather not talk to you than apologise.

my M would rather not talk to me than apologise for her debacle.

it's not just sad, it's tragic, but they chose that, all we're choosingg is NOT to accept abysmal treatment.

Thanks Hissy. You're right. I know that.

Before I sort of had the excuse that she maybe didn't really know why I'd stopped talking to her (although, of course she did really) but Dbro told me she has read the e mail I sent to my uncle where I spelled it all out. The only thing I didn't inlcude was that I knew what she'd ranted to Dbro about, but I alluded to it. But she just says that it's "character assassination", so just denies it all basically.

So, she can't even say now that she doesn't know what the problem is, and she can see why I'm upset, but still won't apologise.

Even about her rant to DBro, she asked him outright if he'd relayed it to me as "that cup of tea you had with her afterwards seems to have been terminal for me", i.e Dbro telling me is the problem, NOT WHAT SHE SAID.

I think I'll talk about this to the therapist. He did warn me about this in the first session. But it does hurt. And it's ironic as it started as me cutting HER out (as protection and a last resort) but it has sort of become that she has cut me off iyswim? NC is good, calmer and better on the whole...but not easy.

Good I can empathise! it is hard. Focus on what you say before that - it's calmer, and better to be NC, right? Mostly, I feel you are right, I have more time for me, DD and DH, and more headspace. Do you get to enjoy the time you'd otherwise have spent catering to your mother? Can you do something nice for yourself at a time when you'd previously have been seeing her?

I spoke to my DF (he and M are divorced, but he's quite a calm, gentle person - she swings between 'missing him dreadfully' (10years divorced) and hating him), who brought up whether I'd spoken to M.

I said no, and that as far as she knew, she spoke to me before my b'day, we left it as 'we won't meet on the day, but on the day after', and that was the last I heard from her. Now, obvs she knows I've spoken to DSis and DF, but that's kind of irrelevant.

Then I said that I was done with all the hatefulness, and drama, and being wrong footed. I also said that I'm still not clear WHY she got hysterically angry - and he said she was going on about 'feeling criticised for taking an interest'. I laughed and pointed out that she selectively takes interest depending on what suits her stalking my DSis at work, but ignoring my DD almost entirely.
He replied 'let's see how you are in 20 years with DD'.

I thought that was a weird/patronising comment, and pretty hurtful. I laughed it off, but I think she's got to him. Bums.

hi, hope its okay for me to post this here, reading some of the posts here mine doesn't seem so bad but I feel I've hit rock bottom with my mother. after speaking to her more or less daily I have now started binge eating again (have been on and off for the last 6 months, the last few weeks I've been doing it a lot more)
its the constant small put downs that I've had my whole life, that i'm not quite as good as my sibling. more recently how it was prob my fault my ex was so abusive to me as I was difficult as a child and more than likely a difficult adult to live with.
there are so many things that alone are nothing but put together have led me to where I am now. yesterday I spoke to my gp and am seeing someone to talk to in two weeks but really could do with some ideas how to cope between now and then so I stop the binge eating.

Yes ofc it's ok to post! everyone who struggles with their mother can post here =)

newday can you back away from her? start to be less available? be out when she rings; forget to ring her back til a couple of days; if she calls round say you're just going out. Reducing the intensity of contact will help.

An alternative is to challenge her. To ask her to stop comparing you. Ignore any claims that you're 'oversensitive'. If she carries on, then walk away literally. Leave, or ask her to leave and don't contact her til you feel ready to.

The first option is easier on you.

Also try reading 'toxic parents' by susan forward. It's really quite revealing.

humpty hope you're okay today.

Even about her rant to DBro, she asked him outright if he'd relayed it to me as "that cup of tea you had with her afterwards seems to have been terminal for me", i.e Dbro telling me is the problem, NOT WHAT SHE SAID. I have exactly this with my father. Bitchy, bitchy nasty comments made behind my back. A few of them get back to me (im absolutely certain there's hundreds more that I haven't heard about) and he got cross because someone told me. It'd be a lot better if he didnt make the fricking nasty comments, but he seems to feel he's perfectly entitled to and the problem is that someone might not cover for him.

Hi new welcome. Don't put yourself down, everyone who posts here reckons their problem isn't "that bad", we all minimise cos it hurts. But you have been hurt by the people who are supposed to love you most and that is not OK. There's no sliding scale of bad, it's all unaaceptable. I think Meerka gives good advice, but the key has to be lower contact, however you achieve that.
Meerka, it's just so self centred, isn't it? The idea that it's someone else's fault for telling not theiers for being fucking horrible in the first place.
Humpty, thanks for the message. Yes, Dc and I used to see her on Sunday mornings and I always found it a bit fraught: nothing to talk about, her whinging about stuff, kids playing up, too much rushing around. Now we go out as a family instead. Last week we went to a lovely park, where there were kid's arts ativities, kids were entertained while DH and I drank coffee in the sun! Sooooooo much more relaxing.
NC is better, just hurts at times, but I suppose that's natural.

newday you do know that's a pile of old shite, right? No one, NO ONE 'deserves' abuse. No one. No matter how 'difficult' they supposedly are. And I bet you're not/weren't.
I also struggle with binge eating/disordered eating. It's really hard, isn't it? Eating to comfort yourself when you feel sad is so hard to get past. I guess that's what you are doing? I have no advice, just sympathy.

meerka that's awful. So narc, to think that the problem isn't him making nasty fucking remarks, but other people telling you. What an utter bastard.

good that sounds like a lovely way to celebrate time for you and your family, where before you dreaded it. You're doing so well.

Thanks, Humpty :) Still feel very up and down.

I've struggled with that comment for the last two days. lots of crying today though now I can see it was a stupid comment. still hurts though, she knew it was happening at the time but not once said come home it was just you made your bed you lie in it.
I had no contact yesterday, very limited this morning, less than 15 minutes. I was a coward and took my DC with me (they're older teens) and she won't be as horrid in front of them. I've changed something about my appearance and that was noticed and I got negative comments.
better news is I've had proper meals today-no binges.
I will look into getting the book and I agree its hard not comfort eating.
thank you all for just being there and listening.

Humpty your (D)M sounds awful and I'm sorry your DF has got embroiled as a winged monkey or whatever (sorry, I'm still learning the terminology.) Just remember what she was like with your baby daughter and it should give you the strength to continue. I don't know if you've sorted the presents & money issues but fingers crossed you have a resolution that works for you.

Good It's soul-destroying when they deny their wrong-doing when it seems so clear-cut to us. Just keep reminding yourself that she forced you in to this, it's not a situation you caused yourself.

newday Welcome, I'm quite new on here myself and everyone is wonderful, it seems to be a lovely supportive place. From what I've been learning lately, it seems to be common for toxic parents to blame the child for being "difficult" when it's just a way of scapegoating the child who has actually done nothing wrong (or just, you know, normal childish behaviour.) Don't accept her version of events, which seems designed to make you feel bad about yourself and make her feel good about herself at the same time. I think children of abusive parents often end up with abusive partners. It's not the child's fault in any way, though! It's because they were screwed up by their parents into thinking that kind of behaviour pattern is normal.

Meerka sorry that your dad's comments are getting back to you and hurting you and it's so selfish of him to be annoyed that his vile comments get passed on but not feeling any guilt at saying them in the first place.

Hello again. I posted a few weeks ago about dealing with my DM who is ill. I had a few weeks back home, but back with DM as she's in final stages of illness.
I'm finding it so hard, God knows why but I'm doing everything I can to keep her at home which was her wish. I suppose I had a fantasy that she'd be pleased with me, my last ditch attempt to gain approval.
A continuing care package has been approved but not put in place yet. I've been struggling all weekend, hopefully it will be sorted now Monday's here. Sorry to sound like a martyr.

it sounds a horribly difficult situation ifuknow. I hope it's not draining you too very far. Please take time to care for yourself

ifuknow that sounds incredibly hard. Do you have support from anyone?
I don't know if this would help, but can you say what you would like to do, regardless of how your mother is? Would you prefer NC? If so, can you somehow see the situation as you doing something you don't want to do, but need to, for practical reasons, and to feel as if you have lived according to your principles/morals? Does that make any sense? I just mean, find a way to come to terms with caring for her, that doesn't feel as if she's 'won'? That it's your choice? I'm thinking of you, and sending strength.

ifuknow that must be so exhausting and it sounds like she doesn't even appreciate it. Try, as far a you can, to separate her"needs" from her "wishes" and don't go out of your way to meet the latter. Try to detach as much as you can. If you don't have anyone IRL to give you a reality check, this is a good place for it. Good luck and hope you don't have to cope alone much longer.

No won't do NC, I'm here for the duration. Looking at her all frail, bed-ridden, in pain, I don't see it that she's 'won'. She keeps asking "Why me?" I'm tempted to say "Karma, Dear Mother" but I know lots of very kind people suffer a similar fate, so not even sure that's the reason.
Yes it's draining, waiting for nurse to call to discuss what help I can have. Several people have told me that if I do end up letting her go to the hospice, I haven't failed. She kept my DF at home, I've been reminded about it constantly, but she had carers so she could still get out each day for shopping, hair appointments etc. I'll just see how it goes. Interested to know what plans others have if their difficult parents become ill?

my biological mother was ... allconsuming. I mean that she expected to be the absolute centre of everyone's world. She was also utterly irrational, could get upset by a dust mote floating in the sunbeam (literally btw, a sign that you weren't cleaning well enough ... in a room she insisted was kept full of boxes from floor to ceiling. Hoarder). and quite happy to be violent by throwing things, hitting, and screaming all night. Which was an achievement given how desperately ill she was.

I'm afraid I fundamentally walked away because no matter how much she suffered, I could not be near her. She tried to hold herself in check when I was around but it could only last a max 2 hours. If I'd stayed, I'd have gone under. Could not have survived myself and I'm afraid I mean exactly that. Made the choice to put myself first and survive.

My adoptive father's old age is not my concern as he's made it clear I have no place in his life. He's very good at throwing people away, he's done it a lot, and I'm afraid I feel that should he end up alone somehow it's not my concern.

My MIL on the other hand is starting to get some of the diseases of old age and as far as I'm physically able I'll do anything I can for her. Do have to balance the needs of our children with her needs, when that time comes, but she has given and given and given of herself to us and we love her dearly. Having said that, dementia would be very hard to cope with long term and we might, very sadly, have to look at putting her in a home. But we'd do as much as we can until that point.

The Obligation and Guilt parts of the FOG acronym come into play in such a big way, don't they, at times like this. Meerka I've very glad that you have been able to get rid of those feelings regarding your adoptive father.

ifuknow Your friends are right, hospice is absolutely not a failure, they are usually lovely places and might even be better for your mother than staying at home, as well as easier for you.

Meerka you're right dementia puts a terrible strain on everyone. I'm thankful that my situation is only short term now.
Thebride thank you. Care has been organised now, so I feel better that I can stand back a bit.

I think it's interesting that caring for elderly parents is a 'daughter' thing. Lots of my female friends have been similarly pressured but men don't seem to have the same weight of expectation placed upon them.

Really glad to hear you've got some help organised now, ifuknow.

yeah funny that isn't it ifuknow

(about the pressure to care being on women not men)

I think it's interesting that caring for elderly parents is a 'daughter' thing

So true. And usually if there's only a son, it's his wife/partner who ends up actually doing the hard stuff / bearing most of the burden. Not always, of course - sweeping generalisation, but sadly a true one nonetheless.

ifuknow so glad you have care in place. I think the thing about 'needs' vs 'wants' is vital to your sanity.
My M cared for her paedophile fucker of a father when he was dying. He is where she learned her narc trade, he was the worst kind. She kept him at home, as per his wishes, trying to the end to win his approval. It didn't work. In hospital (the last three days of his life - friend visited him with M and called an ambulance against their wishes, as his bed was soaked in blood), he still got the last word, telling her she failed him by letting him go there, and when she stood up to it, pulling on the heart strings with 'oh please don't let them kill me'. Boo fucking hoo, should have sent him off to the abattoir years ago. Sorry, I'm meandering.

I don't mean I think you are doing the wrong thing, at all. You sound v calm and collected. I just wanted to say that if your motivations are doing the best by a dying person, that's ace, and particularly admirable given her behaviour. If there's a small part of you hoping she'll eventually realise how much you've sacrificed to do as she wishes, please don't hold onto that hope.

Hello all, I sporadically post and mostly watch as although I'm no contact with my mother I'm past all the grieving and feel at peace with my decision.
However today, coming home with DS on the bus, I had this dawning realisation that I think my grandmother was a narcissist. She died very suddenly when I was around 16/17. While my mother had been abusive, she had been like a second mother, and I'd felt far more love towards her than my own mother (father died so not in the picture, awful stepdad who was a whole other issue). I'd detached from my mother in my early teens and by the age of around 15 really didn't feel very much towards her other than hate. I think I didn't have the FOG because it was my grandmother that I felt all the love towards and not my mum. When she died I didn't cope. I spiralled into a very deep depression, barely passed my A Levels, and it took until very recently for the rawness of the grief to begin to subside. I just didn't go through those stages of grief, the initial raw agony never evolved into anything else until years later.

Recently I've begun to question this idolisation of her. It doesn't sit right now, looking back, I'd been feeling that there was something dysfunctional there but couldn't put my finger on it. I was brought up with the knowledge that she had had a very hard life, had sacrificed an awful lot to raise a family, then did the same for her grandchildren. She was a matriarch of the family. Her three daughters all have dysfunctional relationships with their partners and children. My mother was abusive, mums elder sister is fairly controlling and the younger sister emotionally manipulative. I've sat and thought a lot about what I know about her but looked at it from an adults perspective and it tells rather differently to me now.

My mother remembers rages, throwing things, hysterical crying. She was occasionally violent, controlling. My grandad I can see now was an enabler. She was a martyr, in my memory family get together a were dominated by her martyrdom over how much of the cooking she had done, and how ungrateful we all were yet she would hound anyone who tried to help until they gave up. Casually racist, fairly awful attitude towards "common people", religious and sexist. I was the golden grandchild, favoured visibly more than my cousins. Similarly her youngest daughter was the golden child during my mothers child hood.

That's all classic narcissist isn't it? In a few moments of thinking on the bus this illusion has shattered and with it strangely the remnants of the grief have gone. It also makes an awful lot of sense re my mothers abuse of me. I can even see parallels between lack of sexually appropriate boundaries - no locks on bathroom doors, being told to show grandmother my new knickers (while wearing them, aged 9), being bathed up until the age of 10, general lack of privacy at all right up until I was old enough to either move out (my mother) or in grandmothers case, her death.

I'm not sure what the point of this revelation is. I just needed to get it down somewhere. A counsellor said to me a few years ago that I've managed to emerge remarkably unscathed, and actually in the face of the knowledge that several generations of my family are/were abusive, I'm pretty pleased with myself for not joining the ranks. I think actually, her death saved me from that as it gave me an early escape.