"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

I'm glad you are in a better place both emotionally and physically now Hissy. Hope your DS is in a better place too.
DM has been msging Dbro, asking hwy he's being distant so looks like she's looking for a reaction from him now she's lost me as narc supply.

A really interesting thread...

To the outside world I had an idyllic upbringing. A SAH DM who was always there for me, but that was the issue I always had to justify what I was doing. I so wished I could go home to an empty house, turn my music up and chill, like my few friends could do. She was always there to interfere, I was told to get more involved in conversations but whatever I said seemed to be wrong. I grew up frightened to say things in case I got it wrong and always had to ask before doing anything.

Guess what I ended up with a (now ex) DH who was almost just as controlling. My current DH has allowed me the freedom to be myself... The first time in over 50 years.

I feel guilty that I resent DM but it still continues. When I go to see her I go back to being 10, everything I do and say in challenged. DM is in her mid eighties and starting to become frail and forgetful. She is 2.5 hours drive away... She won't move and I work full time. My brother lives on the other side of the world. I feel I should be doing more for her, but part of me feels that it is just her being controlling over my life.

Hi and welcome. I haven't posted for a few days as just coming to terms with it all myself. I too had a controlling dh who is now dead. Best thing he ever did for me. u

Welcome ThePerfect! Hey mutternutter, it's hard going getting your head round it, we're here if you want to talk. I'm having a more down day today about it all. So much emotional slog to get through sometimes.

xx

Marking my place so I can come back and read later. Hope that's ok. Have seen many posters referring to this thread. Think I might find it useful

welcome perfect and milllie. Hope you're okay, mutter

Thankyou .

Just knew it was too good to be true. DM screaming right now. Am hiding on stairs with kids. Only just got back in. Have to get out this week. Just need to sort it but its Sunday

mutternutter are you ok? can you take the kids out?

Sorry, Im new but mutternutter why are you hiding on the stairs? Is your mother in your house?

Are you OK, mutter? Can you go out somewhere for a while? Can you stay somewhere else temporarily tomorrow?

Hi all sm ok and going out. Just took a while to round up kids and their paraphernalia. Will be making plans to leave this week

Hi, I was hoping I could get a bit of advice. I've been NC with my brother as I couldn't take his rudeness to my own DC. We share an amazingly overbearing/ occasionally violent when we were young mother and she has cottoned on, anyway as a result she said she thought it was because of 'those nasty things' my brother 'made up' about her. So I dug with mutual friends. And apparently my brother may have experienced some sexual abuse from our mother. I am truly worried I've abadoned my brother to my huffiness about his rude behaviour to my dc (to be honest it reminded me of how mother talks to/ about me). I really had no clue. Brother has made no effort to contact. Should I? Or let him live his life with no memories of our shit childhood?

oh mutter I hope you can find somewhere very quickly. Hold on.

seasavage hello. It sounds very difficult indeed.

You are quite right to insist on speaking and behaving well around your children. That's the most important thing. If it took going NC to achieve that, then so be it.

Beyond that, there could be some chance of maybe-limited contact with him. You could drop him a neutral-but-friendly note, suggest handwritten and short, on the lines of "we've not got on in the past but maybe now it's a few years down the line we could have some contact".

If he says no, then that's clear and the decision is made. If he says yeah, then it's worth having some limited contact face to face to see how he is now. If he's still unpleasant, you can let the contact drift away again. If he's improved then you can have that limited contact for a while and maybe after a few meetings / messages gently raise the subject of your mother "I was thinking about how we were brought up and there were some bad things went on. It was tough on both of us". If he bites then you can build on that. If not, then that's clear and you can continue the relationship as it is, or let it peter out.

Just see how it goes, really :)

But again, you'd have to be sure he'd changed before you could allow him to be around your kids again.

seasavage

What would you want contact with your brother if made to achieve?.

I would be very careful indeed. Do you actually know where he is now?. TBH I would be inclined to not contact him and let sleeping dogs lie.

His behaviour towards your children is something that could never be at all countenanced. You went NC with him primarily because of that issue.

Yes. I guess I feel guilty I've abandoned my brother. But the DC really do come first. Thanks. That's a perspective on it I couldn't get. I also need to talk about this with DH. It's a weird shock (worryingly not huge).

I have his address, and I know his work email (he works with a relative of ours). Contacting him wouldn't be particularly tricky. I don't know what I hope to achieve. Being a good sister? Showing him maybe our family could be something /OK without our mother? Silly really. Generally our (wider) family are wonderful and supportive. I guess I wish I could be part of something like that. In spite of my mother.

It sounds like this is as much about you proving to yourself that you're a good person as about him and wanting to belong.

which means that you doubt yourself - probably quite fiercely. It may be something you want to get to the bottom of and make your peace with yourself. Contacting your brother may or may not be part of that.

It would be nice if he's changed and you could talk about the past; sharing the experience makes you less alone. But it has to be faced that he may well not have changed, it usually takes something dramatic before people actually do (if they ever do).

You could ask your relative how he is? that might be a start. Just finding out how he is now and how he's behaving.

Hi, I've read this thread with interest (and sadness) and found it very helpful. I've also read a few of the resources at the beginning, which are also ace.
I think this is going to be an essay, so I apologise in advance, but I need a little support and advice, and you all seem so sorted!

My DM is, I'm pretty certain, a narcissist. I won't go into the huge long background, but she's always disliked DH, to the point of telling me she thought he was wrong for me - the day after I passed my PhD viva - and making him 'interview' with her before he asked me to marry him (he called to 'ask for my hand', out of courtesy, really, and she said she wanted him to come and see her). As a result, she's interfered in my marriage, and tried to split us up.

To give you an idea of her general behaviour, she divorced my dad when I was 15, and used me as her emotional crutch thereafter, and subsequently ignored her father sexually abusing me - and now denies that I told her at the time. He the fucktard paedo is now dead good and she cries about him often, and says how much she misses her 'daddy'. She has always ruled my sister and I with fear, manipulation and control.

The reason I'm posting now is that it was my birthday on Friday. She (as usual), had got in touch about a week earlier to discuss what we'd do - it's normal for her, my DF (her ExH) and my DSis to all meet. We're all adults.

The thing that's different this year is that I have an eight month old DD. We talked about meeting on Saturday, which seemed to work.

Then she called on Tuesday, saying 'I've spoken to your sister, and we'd prefer to see you on the day, not on some random day'. At the time, I was feeding DD, and I couldn't hear her well, which I told her. I also said that Friday didn't work for us, as we'd get home well after DD should be in bed, and have to drive into London in Friday rush hour traffic in order to meet up then. Saturday wouldn't have the same issues, as we could meet earlier, and the traffic would be better.
She said some things I couldn't hear, so I asked her to call another time. She rang off, after trying to say whatever it was she was trying to say (I missed half of it every time!) and I knew she was pissed off at me not stopping instantly to listen to her witter on endlessly.
My DF then rings, to say that DM has rung him, hysterical with anger at... I don't know. I still don't.

My DSis then rings to say she's had both barrels too. I ask her what's up, and it's something to do with DH - DSis isn't clear what (we tune DM out, as she is deathly boring). DH rings mother, and asks why she's angry at him. She hangs up.

So, Friday comes, by then I have rearranged (re-rearranged?) a birthday meetup for Sat, and know that DM isn't coming - this is perfectly normal, she often sulks. Eventually, at 10pm, she texts me to say she won't ring, as it will 'inevitably be the wrong time, or she'll have done something else wrong', but Happy Birthday.

For some reason, this has just made her behaviour shift into focus for me. I don't know why something so (relatively) innocuous should have had such an effect, but it has.

Since DD was born, (after we got back from hospital - see below) she hasn't visited - I have been to see her, driving 150 miles on motorways (I'm a very new driver) with my 8wo DD in the back, which was moderately nerve-wracking.

She hasn't once offered to babysit. When I've told her that my (lovely) MIL has babysat, she says 'lucky her, that she gets asked', and when I replied with 'okay, why don't you babysit next time, then', she says she can't, as she's 'not welcome in my house'.

In two out of three conversations she won't ask about DD at all. If she does, I'll maybe say 'oh, she was up a few times last night, I'm tired!', and her only response is 'well that's no good', in a very disapproving tone.
Last time she asked 'how old is DD' - honestly, am I being PFB, expecting her to know this (even vaguely)?

When DD was born, I had a horrendous time, was in hospital for six days. DM came to stay, and was awful to DH - wouldn't let him get to bed when they got home from hospital, just sat there gassing on endlessly, criticising him for everything. She told me he didn't once make her a cup of tea - which is a)bullshit, and b) of no possible fucking consequence: his wife had nearly died, and he was, I dunno, a bit perturbed. Tea! FFS.

When we left hospital, DH went to put DD in the back in her car seat, and she tried to take over and do it. He got really upset, and I asked her to stop, as he felt v sentimental about doing it. She didn't stop, just hovered behind him, and double checked it when he'd finished.

When we got home, we then sat up for four hours while she poured out a stream of hatred for DH, his family, and the rest of the known universe. I sat there with my week old daughter, having not had more than two consecutive hours sleep in a week, and didn't know what to do. I tried to talk her down, and get her and DH to come to terms, but I'm pretty sure this is the source of her 'not welcome in your house' rubbish, as they didn't even really agree to disagree, it was a less cordial standoff. Some of her 'issues' are batshit - at our wedding, DH's family didn't make sure she was okay, despite knowing she was there 'alone' while my DF was there with his partner. DH's family had not met her (except my MIL). That's the kind of batshit.

She criticises DD for things which don't make any sense (having no discipline, being 'too loud'), and has shouted 'shut up' at her at a family gathering.

I guess what I'm coming round to (god, I'm as long winded as she is!) is that I don't want her to do DD what she's done to me. And I don't want to turn into her. I think I want to go NC. But the thought of it makes me sad, afraid, and confused.
Help?!

God, that's so long. Sorry. Feel free to ignore/skip.

Bugger, meant to add that one source of her current rage is (apparently) that several months ago, she posted a horrendously racist and xenophobic thing on Fb, basically saying 'go home foreigners', and DH (ever the optimist) replied at length, pointing out that most of what she'd shared (she didn't write it) was actually based on incorrect assumptions, untruths, or misinterpretation of figures. He spent ages researching his post, and I'm sure he'd have got his facts straight. Her post was just hateful.

His post sent her into an apoplectic fit, from which she's never recovered where he's concerned. Apparently this is now the cause of her current fit of insanity. I don't even know if it's relevant, just thought I should add it, as it's apparently part of the story! I'm sorry, this is reading as v confused, but I am. I feel foggy. I don't have strong recollections from childhood, and I'm starting to get the same fogginess now. No idea why.

My dear HumptyDumptyBumpty your post gave me goosebumps and made me well up a bit. There are differences but your mother sounds so much like mine I could cry. Mine hates my DH and we are currently NC (since August) after another marathon slagging session from her about DH. I had a long thread on here before about my dawning realisation that she was a narc. I've read all the links and she ticks almost all the narcissistic traits. But it took me a long time to get here to NC (about 2 years). I tried low contact for about 18 months but ultimately she's gone too far this time. I too, struggle greatly with Fear Obligation and Guilt (FOG) and find my childhood memories hazy. I'm having some therapy to try to sort my head out.
Seeing as there has been a row, maybe just don't contact her for a while. Try to get some headspace. If she contacts you maybe have some set response ready like "your behaviour to me is unacceptable, I do not wish to talk to you at present" and then don't respond to any more contact. See how you feel after a little break from her? If she's 150 miles away it makes it difficult for her to do much more than ring/write I suppose.
But, I do totally understand how hard all this is. I know NC is also very hard indeed but sometimes you need a break, even if NC isn't forever.

Your mother HumptyDumptyBumpty is an out and out narcissist. Everything you have written about her is typical narc behaviour. Such women cannot do relationships at all so was not at all surprised to see that she herself divorced her H. They cannot tolerate any man who dares to stand up for himself so such men often find themselves let go of.

Re your comment;-

"I guess what I'm coming round to (god, I'm as long winded as she is!) is that I don't want her to do DD what she's done to me. And I don't want to turn into her. I think I want to go NC. But the thought of it makes me sad, afraid, and confused".

That is a common fear of adult children of narcissists but that fear is unfounded. You know your treatment of you at her hands is fundamentally wrong and you have two qualities that she is sadly lacking in; empathy and insight.

If you want to go NC then do so. Your DH will likely support you in this aim. Try not having any contact with her now and see where that takes you.

She has made you feel sad, afraid and confused due to her own damaging conditioning of you. She has also made you likely feel like you are an extension of her so you perhaps feel that you cannot or will not manage without her. You probably wonder whom you yourself are on occasion. It's all very hard to break but break this you must.

She is a deplorably bad parent to you and she will become a deplorably bad grandmother to your child, your most precious of resources. Never, ever leave your child alone at all with this woman. You need to keep your DD completely away from your mother; if your mother cannot behave (and she cannot do this anyway) the deal is that she gets to see none of you. Block her demands from your e-mail address, block her number too from your landline and mobile.

A good rule of thumb here is that if she is too toxic for you to deal with then she is certainly too toxic for your both vulnerable and defenceless child. You would not have tolerated any of your mother's insults from a friend, family are no different.

GoodtoBetter (and I am glad she has replied to you) also has a narcissistic mother and she has been put through the wringer as a result too. NC is the only way forward ultimately; you will have no peace at all as long as your mother is in your life in any way, shape or form.

Glad you jumped in there, Attila. Listen, Humpty if you're anything like I was 2 years ago you will be shocked to read Attila's post and won't quite believe she's that bad or won't quite dare to think you could cut her off. But she is right that you won't have any peace with her in your life. NC isn't easy because of all the emotional crap it dredges up, but it is at least peaceful. I can vouch for that.
You can't change these people, only how you react to them. And there is no way to win either, the only way to win is not to play. They crave the drama, you have to deny them the drama by denying contact.

It is a very good idea to keep her away from your daughter (congratulations btw!).

an 8 week old with no discipline? shouting at her to shut up? good god, the woman's < bites her lip to try not to be too blunt>.

Alright, on a practical note: wanting to go NC is entirely reasonable and frankly a good idea. She's making you choose between your husband and her and you should stand by your husband.

Feeling sad, confused and afraid is normal if you are facing a big decision like this. Firstly, you've been brought up by her, she figures large in your life within your head (as every mother does) and it's hard to cut off someone that you naturally love, at some level. Also being the target of rage is frightening. So it's entirely normal to find it hard. But it's also the healthiest option, often. Sadly.

She will hit the roof and you need to plan for that. If you do go ahead with NC, some of the people here have tips on how to handle that.

How is your relationship with your sister? If you go NC with your mum, can you still be in contact with her?

As for yoru father, suggest strongly that you ask him from now on not to pass any information about you to her, or about her to you. You can phrase it something like "you don't really want to handle your mother's rages any more as it's having a bad effect on your daughter and it's a strain for your husband; please could he not pass on any more messages from her and can he and you just concentrate on your relationship, without her being a factor?". They're divorced. Her rages are not his concern.

Again you are absolutely right to go NC considering your lovely baby. About you behaving similarly - the chances are very good that you won't, becuase you're aware of it. But the model of parenting you had is pretty bad so in honesty, so like quite a few people who've had rotten mothers there may be times when you find yourself nearly reacting the way your mother might have. It has to be faced. Being aware of that possibility (as you are) and most of all, wanting to do it differently is the crucial factor in not falling into the old pattern.

btw, Im not sure that we all have it togehter and sorted ... at least, I certainly haven't! But we support each other. Do feel free to post as often as you need to!