"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Discovering this thread was a revelation. I didn't know so many others had similar problems to me. My mother is toxic, I've been NC with her for 2 years.

Basically she's the controlling co-dependant type, everything has to be her way or no way. She manipulates everything to her advantage. She had been overly involved in my life from the moment my 1st child was born & as we grew as a family & bought a house it continued. It got worse when I went to uni at 30, she hated it as couldn't take the credit for my success. Typical narc behaviour, favoured certain grandchildren over others, made pathetic faces & noises if didn't get her own way.

Very very interfering with how we parented, culminating in her stealing my eldest DS aged 16. He had been stealing, taking drugs etc, we punished him, she thought we were too strict as we took his privileges. She posted him an iPod & some books through our letterbox, was giving him cash & basically told him living with her would be better. So he went, now he's 19 still sponging off her, with no job or future prospects.

Posted too soon. I was also very close to my grandfather ( her father) and he agreed with me that her behaviour was out of control. He supported me more than she ever did, but with wise advice & kind words, she hated it. She cut him out, stopped seeing him or helping him, then he got cancer & she swooped back in to nurse him with myself & 2 other family members.

He died & she completely took over, organising the funeral, she didn't let anyone else have a say, she read at the funeral & cried fake tears. Always the centre of attention, look at me, I'm the best, I organised all this.It's a year today since he died & she's put fake over the top words all over facebook, yet she still hasn't contributed to the cost of his headstone.
God, I hate the woman.

Pippin this sounds like just the tip of the iceberg on what she's done to you. I'm truly sorry. Please keep talking if it helps. No wise words but seeing your son living with her and being used almost to get at you is just awful.

pippin I am so sorry about your DS. Heartbreaking. I really hope something can get through to him.

In your shoes I'd be tempted to write something on Facebook like "hi mum, I know things were difficult but we'd really appreciate the contribution to his headstone that you promised last year". Probably a very bad idea though. NC sounds much the best .. you might want to ensure that you de-friend and block her.

She has no contact with your other children?

Pippin, your mother sounds awful, especially convincing your eldest DS to live with her.

I'm really struggling today. My last post here a couple of days ago explained how my mum had been in contact as it was my DS's birthday (see previous post for full details!). Why do I feel like I'm being unreasonable? Saw my DB today who says my mum was round there crying saying how id left her confused and feeling like she can't do right. Interestingly though she only told certain parts of our text conversation eg: she didn't tell him she'd told me I had to tell my DS why she couldn't see him face to face (and she thinks he'll be bothered considering she lives a 5 min drive away and hasn't made an effort to see him since March!).

I suppose, as I've recognised through therapy I'm feeling shit because I'm so used to putting her needs/feelings first and knowing I've upset her sits very uncomfortably with me. My DH is getting angry that I'm feeling bad for her (angry with her not me but I feel like it's me he's angry at- linked to my beliefs about always being responible for others feelings I suppose). There's been times when I've just wanted to go round and tell her we can forget about all this and just get back to how we were (which was me for many years dismissing and downplaying her behaviours/attitude). I feel at the moment I'm making everyone upset.

Sorry just need to rant.

I have deleted her on facebook but not blocked her, so saw her post on my aunts timeline today. She doesn't see my other younger DS, her choice, though if you ask she'll say we don't allow it. Last week she posted a card for his birthday stuffed with £50, no call or anything.

He knows he can see who he wants, when he wants, but never asks, I feel sorry for him as he's lost that extended family, I'm also NC with my bro & sis due to mother allowing them to smoke drugs in front of all the children at family bbq's at her house.

Worry, I used to feel like that about upsetting her, I bought her a spa day for her 50th for us to do together & all she did was moan about how she wouldn't be able to smoke. Going NC was like a weight being lifted, I really didn't realise how it was affecting my mental health.

worry I empathise with feeling absolutely rotten about yourself when you put yourself first or even just equal with others who have tried to dominate your life.

Do you truly believe you are being reasonable in these dealings with her? (Im sure you are - what I mean is, do you really see that too?). Would it help to write it down what she's done? when she gives half the story to someone, like her being upset and confused that she can't see your son even though she hasn't even tried to for seven months it can really be hard to believe in yourself. Writing it down makes the reality of her unreasonable behaviour more solid. You can look at it, weigh it, and look at it from outside a bit. that can help sometimes.

How did your DB react when you told her the full picture?

pippin glad to hear your younger son wants nothing to do with her. Yes to feeling so much lighter after breaking contact with someone who drags you down!!

Thank you Meerka - yes I think thats a good idea to write it down to make sense of and make reality of the unreasonable behaviour more solid as you suggested.

With regards my DB's reaction when I told him the full picture, he was surprised - 'oh, I didn't know that/she didn't tell me that'. When I told him/showed him text from her whereby her response to my disclosure that I'm struggling mentally/emotionally at the mo and findings things hard, was 'join the club!' - he was shocked and felt that was out of order and recognised how she had not acknowledged my feelings/difficulties at all! I told him thats how its always been with her! (but he will not cut her off - he's golden boy).

worry, if your brother doesn't realise what she's been like towards you then it will be a slow process. it sounds like he's begun though. But I think he'll need to see more and more examples to really realise.

worryworker my brother knew what my DM was like before I did, it took me a while and some really nasty crap for it to really sink in, because you are totally programmed to think the opposite of that.

"Knowing I've upset her sits very uncomfortably with me" "Putting everyone's needs first". I really understand that, the desperate need to smoothe things over at any cost to yourself. My heart goes out to you, that's me too. I think therapy can help with this. It's hard but it's a habit we have to break or we will drive ourselves mad. And they'll never be happy no matter what, so what's the point anyway?

How you doing now, good?

Hey there, Meerka How's it going with the baby? And how's the big brother doing? They're both boys, right?
I'm not too bad. I'm in the library doing a bit of work as there's wifi here and it's quiet, away from the kids. They're coming to pick me up in a bit and we'll choose some books and go for a walk in the afternoon sun. The library is opposite Dm's house, which is a bit weird. Still can't get my head round what a total fucking nutter she is. I'm only doing 2 nights a week teaching and I am LOVING it. Working really hard for my exam in January and just really enjoying the peace and calm of a) not seeing my nutty mother every week or hearing from her at all and b) not working so hard. I'm working hard but not the shitty hours. I'm not earning a lot as my salary has halved and I'm not taking on too much translation until I've sat the exam, but there's money in the bank and we're OK.
Got my second session with the therapist tomorrow via skype and really looking forward to it!
NC isn't easy but at times like this it feels like the best thing I have done in a long time.

Good to hear it's going so well and you're enjoying the teaching! you sound a hundred times lighter than on your first threads =)

The Pipsqueak is doing really well, growing and growing. He's so sweet. Our older son is pretty good, I do hope he learns to concentrate though. Butterfly brain. He's absolutely lovely with the Squeak though and we're slowly learning that even if he looks rough, the Squeak doesn't seem to find it bad, he rarely protests.

Husband is very supportive when I talk over the family stuff, just wish I could switch myself off from being sad over it. I'd much rather live in the here and now! It's so much better.

Ha ha, I actually meant i'm loving only doing 2 days as opposed to 4 and a half, but the teaching's OK too
Ah, little babies...

It's great to have a supportive, understanding husband isn't it meerka? But as you say it's hard to not get sad about all the other family stuff.

I did what u suggested and compiled a list of her recent unreasonable behaviour (in last year)- my god, it's long!! Seeing it all written down in black and white is quite an eye opener. Showed my husband and his response was 'shocking'! Would like to share the list here but it's too long (!) but includes stuff such as:

• stalking and threatening my step dad once they split despite making it clear she didn't want him near her for last 2 years of marriage
• disclosed to me and dsis that she had suspicions step dad was a paedophile, giving 'incidences' from 10 yrs ago but stayed with him anyway!! (We believe this is a malicious lie which still makes her look like an evil cow!)
• rarely made effort to see my kids when with step dad or now with current partner but couldn't get rid of her when she split from step dad!
• met new partner on dating website she initially went on to stalk step dad! Moved in with him within 3 months.
• wanting to see my DS on his recent birthday, despite not having seen him since March and getting annoyed when I said no- told me I had to explain to DS why she wasn't able to see him face to face! Blames fact not seen him on my request for space but this request has only been made in past 6 wks.
• went to a family gathering/birthday celebration in Scotland and caused a huge scene, shouting and subsequently falling out with her parents, sister and brother! They've now 'disowned' her!

And this is just selected highlights! Some unreasonable behaviour there don't you think?! What do others make of this?

I think that anyone who spreads that much chaos of a horrible kind in their wake, is someone who should be avoided strongly.

the paedophile thing is shocking. Both the accusation if she never really believed it; her staying with him if she did; and just brushing it off later.

I know meerka- that accusation has been the worst thing for me to get my head round to be honest. Plus dm expects me to just 'forget' all this and seriously doesn't get why I'm struggling with it.

I think I know that her behaviour is unreasonable now and in the past (going back to childhood), but what I still need to work out is whether I can have any relationship, on any level, with her in the future. Or mores the point, if I want to! DH asked me me what positive I get from my relationship with her and I find that difficult to answer (odd times she has been thoughtful, caring- acted in way you'd expect a mum too).

It really is a terrible accusation whichever way you look at it. People like this say whatever gets them the reaction at the time and then lie to cover their tracks. I think they believe their own lies.
Had my second session with the therapist and talked about what to say to DS when he asks about DM. He agreed to be vague for the time being and see how things develop. We talked about the panic I get about things, about her and doing the right thing or not and he got me to think about the "age" of that panic..what time in childhood it feels like, which was illuminating and good food for thought.
Also talked a bit about how to approach any future contact (he suggested only communicating via e mail or letter so there is a record and she can't twist what was said). The idea of contact with her provoked my feeling of panic, ha ha! I really would like her just to go poof and disappear altogether. :(

Bloody hell G2B, that therapist is GOOD!

I've often talked about the FEAR we feel when standing up to them and that it's a child's fear, not the adult that we are now.

Main thing is that when panic threatens to strike, to stop what you are doing, and really challenge the thinking going on, ask yourself what you are afraid of and what - seriously - do you think will happen.

The temptation to react, there and then, needs to be stopped. Take time to watch events unfold. Let things happen and THEN see what (if anything) you need to do. Other people, dysfunctional ones especially, have a habit of making THEIR problems our problems. But they are not, and need to be resisted.

We are adults now and can deal with anything that's thrown our way. we choose to get involved or not. No matter what a regular person WANTS us to do, if we don't want to, that's good enough.

Yes, I think he is very perceptive. He has heard a lot about my mother from Dbro when he had his therapy, but even so I think he's a very good listener and is quick to pick up on things. He seems to "get it". We were also talking about me being my own "minder", reigning myself in with my need to fix things for other people, about reminding myself that I'm responsible for my own emotions, not those of others. He did refer to DM as a drama queen, which made me laugh.
DM still dominates the sessions, but I suppose that's to be expected. He has me write a "journal" between sessions and I find that a very good exercise too. Then I send it before the session and he brings up anything he thinks is important.
I'm having another session next week, I'd rather do every ten days to 2 weeks money wise, but it doesn't work as well so spaced apart and it's hard to get availability with him when I'm also free. It was next week or 2 weeks again. I figure, there's plenty of money in the bank, I can afford it so I need to embrace it and make the most of it. I don't think I'll need it forever, but it's really helping, although if you asked me how I couldn't explain how but I feel better for it.
You are also very perceptive, Hissy I know you have mentioned the panic age thing before. Have you thought maybe about being a counsellor, you'd be great! :)

yes, you would hissy!

I do think that keepign sessions close, or however far apart the therapist recommends, is a good idea good. How long has your brother been seeing him?

Yes, two weeks was a bit too long. It is quite a lot of money but then we have savings. I think it's a worthwhile investment. He said at the beginning he didn't think I'd need all that much in terms of sessions.
Dbro had loads, started in the spring of last year and went on sort of on and off til about this spring.But you can see how much it's helped him...he has so much more clarity and distance than me, although to be fair he has the advantage of having thousands of miles between him and her.
Was talking to the therapist about possible future contact with her and he was saying it had to be on my terms, should be in writing etc. I told him I don't want any contact now if there's a possibility that she really will go to the UK. I don't want her to have the slightest whiff that she might be able to get her claws back in and so drop plans to leave. Not only for me, but also because as time goes on she would be better in the UK. Not happier as her life's work is being a whinger, but there's no way she's getting me to run around after her here, so it would be easier if she were in the UK in older age (she's 71 now).
He said at the end of the conversation he thought I was being very courageous which was very nice but I'm not sure how I am being really.

ha ha! dunno about that! i'd have to train myself to not say 'wtf are you doing it like that for, do this, that and the other'

or worse 'what you whining for, man up!' :)

funny though, everything that's happened in my 46 years has brought me to the best place i've ever been mentally. path's been a culmination of severe depression at 30, cognitive behavioural therapy just to keep me alive, 3yrs in extreme isolation watching egyptians like labrats and the depths of human behaviour there. THEN divesting myself of abusive ex, then 'family' and all the therapy that went with it. not forgetting MN. couldn't have got to this mental space without it.

might be nice to put it to good use though. :)

Good you are unrecognisable from the person that wrote her first post. you have come so far! it's so satisfying to see! :)

hissy im sorry but I didnt understand 'watching egyptians like labrats" ... please could you explain for me?

You know, I reckon life is so much BETTER at 35+ than when you're 21. Hm ok, at 27+. But by 35 you're really settling better into your own life and skin ain't you. So much easier to speak up for yourself =)

spent 3yrs in Alex, Ex didn't let/take me out for literally months (10 weeks was longest period, only 'broken' by a MC and me haemorraging and almost dying)

tbh though, when we moved to somewhere I could go 'out' (only around a block/along the seafront in front of apartment building) being watched/followed/photographed by complete strangers ended up having the effect of putting me off going outside.

so I observed them, trying to find the reason why they did the things they did, working out why they treated me and others the way they did. trying to make sense of the open insane asylum that is that land. trying to understand the un-understandable.

conquering agoraphobia was another thing I had to work on when I came back home.