"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Can relate to that yongnian. Narcissists are certainly really crap gift givers.

MIL usually phones to ask what to buy for DS because she has no idea what to buy him (infact she does the same behaviour for both DH and me too). Fact of the matter really is that she does not know him at all and also has no opinion on what to buy him anyway (again typical of narcs not to have an opinion). What she then does is ask us to send her an Amazon link so she can order an item. Its very crap whichever way you look at it.

No, don't think so yongnian as she's only 3. Was another factor in wanting LC which DM then blew up into NC.

just a small non-sequitor, sorry yongian.

Feeling sad about my own family, except for one half-sister I found at 18 and my adoptive father's sister.

But I am so glad that my mother in law is so nice. Straightforward, honest, very kind. Some people find her a bit opinionated but I can manage that just fine. Supportive without being interfering.

Just wanted to post ... trying to look outwards not backwards, which is sometimes all too easy.

Just wanted to post and say I think this thread is amazing. My parents are toxic, but it is mainly aimed at my older sister. And started when we began to have our own opinions/ lives. Over the years I have always been the mediator but have finally accepted I cannot do this any longer. Has anyone else experienced parents being more toxic for a sibling? I feel so guilty sometimes. Since age 18 my sister has never been able to do anything right, and yet as a child I always felt she was the golden girl in my parents eyes. It's really confusing. She has now decided to go NC with them which I totally understand but I will have to listen to how heartbroken they are. It's so difficult. Struggling a bit with the pointlessness of it all.

yongian how about saying "no presents please" and leave it at that.

or if you are NC, remain so. no-one said breaking away was easy!

hi dragonfly

there's a lot of threads here where people have been scapegoated or else the golden child. goodtobetter will tell her own story but she was the golden child .... finally, she broke free and saw her mother beginning the same all over again with her own children.

I think your role is as hard as being the scapegoat although perhaps less immediately piercing than being the victim.

It often begins when children start to think differently than their parents. Very self centred or selfish people struggle badly to accept someone thinking differently from them ... and often they prefer to think of someone else as 'bad' so that the fault lies in the other person, not them themselves.

It's a very hard role for you, but it will mean a huge amount to your sister that you are retaining contact and that you totally understand. Have you told her that you understand? If you've been scapegoated, you often feel isolated and having someone tell you they understand means a lot.

Is there anyone can support you?

Thankyou for replying Meerka. My sister and I do support each other, and both understand this is about our parents not us. She knows I hate what they have done, but she apologises to me as I am left dealing with fall out! You are right, neither parent are ever in the wrong and if I challenge them I am being disrespectful. Not as bad as a lot of people's experiences but this thread is a real eye opener.

Hi Dragonfly, welcome to the thread. The child who fulfils the role of scapegoat/golden child can change over time. I was always the golden child and my younger brother the scapegoat. He moved away and reduced contact gradually (without even relaising it I think) and although I moved away, she followed me and entwined herself very successfully in my life. She pushed it too fr and we are now NC. So now effectively I am the sc and my brother the gc. I think you're the gc until you go against them or stand up to them.
My DM was beginning to gc/scapegoat my DCs and that and other things just became a step too far.

Thankyou for that insight, looks like I'm the gc now. Wow, I didn't realise other people experience this! When I have more time I'm going to read back over this thread, and look at some of the books recommended. Strangely I don't feel angry at my parents, just sad because I know they love my sister in their own way, it's just they cannot see beyond their own distorted view. I see it as a kind of illness really. Maybe that's too forgiving of me...

Sometimes I wonder if I dreamt a lot of what happens. DM turning up at my new house yesterday with tree surgeon to chop down my beautiful trees. I got there just in time. She then I think this is the word hawked and spat on the patio.
Ranted at D's this morning as he left kitchen door open at hers then as I stood up for him she said that she had been thinking a out things. I took this. As a veiled threat. She has already threatened to disk herit D's.
I wonder if she has dementia as forgetful. Just do t know. Any more

A tree surgeon turned up at your house yesterday with your mother?!. What on earth was all that about?.

I would think that your mother has always been out and out abusive. You've had a lifetime of her abusing you and such people often threaten to disinherit, its another way of controlling their victims.

You will never have any peace if you have your mother in your life in any shape or form. She needs to be completely cut off and from your lives.

agreed ... goodness me, turning up at your house to have the trees cut down without asking?!

would agree that it sounds like you'd be better off without her in your lives but it can be hard to do, I know. But you'd have a freer life!

failing that, she needs boundaries setting in place urgently (possibly physical ones, an electric fence round your property sounds about right - she really turned up with a tree surgeon in tow without ever mentioning her plan to you?!). More seriously, it needs to be made very, very clear to her she cannot plan anything in your life.

Disinheritance is hard. The emotions around the money as well as the money itself...and the childhood things that become lost. Sadly it has to be faced that the price of the inheritance might be too high. It's really hard to face but the freedom from control does turn out to be priceless

meerka no need to apologise
good you have done a great thing for you all sparing your DD from the pain of that
hissy that's a really really interesting idea - why didn't I think of it?! Could maybe say donations to charity instead - brilliant. That's a win win - we're spared the manipulation and charities gain...
And yes, breaking away is not easy - but staying is hardest!
Mutter - your mother was going to chop your trees down??? re the disinherited thing - I've contemplated this being what my DM would think the worst thing she could do. But have decide I value my emotional freedom more, don't care. Which is liberating. Might be one way to think about it?

agreed, emotional freedom is more important.

you know, you'd think that someone with more than 10 parents (adoptive, biological and various steps) .. could manage to get an inheritance from somewhere. But all that's coming my way out of the whole lot of them is a necklace from my MIL when she passes on ... and she's the one I really don't want to loose.

Do struggle with the knowledge that the 3-4 thigns that I loved from my childhood have been given / sold elsewhere. It's the rejection.

Hmm meerka that's hard...especially with that number of parents!! There are couple of things that I was told would come way which have high sentimental value...but I've tried to just let go of them in advance...I dont know definitely I've been disinherited...I'm just preparing myself for a worst case scenario. (because what else could they do?)
But I can imagine the reality of those things going elsewhere would really hurt, as you say, it would be the rejection.

Disinheritance has always been a theme down the generations in my family. Part of conditional love I guess.

Mutternutter (adore that name!) Your TREES? FFS!

She fucking gobbed on your patio?

Calm yourself/give yourself a bit of time until you can tap into the ice cold fury you need to use to deal with this.

THEN, call your DM and tell her that if she ever appears at your house uninvited with or without fecking tree surgeons that you will call the police to have her removed.

How DARE she do this, how dare she spit, and how dare she threaten you and/or your sons. TELL her not to bother with bequests/wills or whatever, the price of having in her life is not worth any amount she can scrape together.

Do this in a very cool, calm, slow manner, use a low voice and don't allow her to negotiate on anything.

SHE doesn't call the shots in your life/house/garden. You do.

Can you secure your property so that she can't gain access to the trees?

Yes, I think disinheriting is a VERY common tactic/threat with people like this. My mum did it around the time we moved out of her house and got quite annoyed when I wasn't leaping to help her organise changing her will . She has since said that she will be disinheriting me once she gets back to the UK. I don't really care, it's not sentimental stuff, just money. Anyway Dbro says whatever she leaves him he'll split with me so she'll be thwarted anyway. Ha!

Hi Good,
That's what me and my sister agreed too, but strangely my parents recently alluded to the fact there are conditions in their will that will ensure their wishes are carried out! The mind boggles....

mutternutter you sound so ground down... And resigned. As if this kind of stuff is all you can imagine, as if you've accepted this is just the way it is.

You know, I'd say most of us thought the way our parents behaved was normal for a long time. When it's all you've ever known, how are you supposed to know any different?

But it's good you're now coming to see that this is not normal... That it's so far from normal it's actually recognised by others as being abusive.

You don't have to take this. You definitely don't have to be her carer in the future. You were not put on this earth to be her servant and her whipping boy. Caring for an ageing parent who has always been loving towards you and given you their best throughout their life must be a special thing; caring for an abusive parent who has treated you like dirt and given you the very worst of themselves would be a form of torture. And masochistic.

No one has any say in this but you. You get to decide this. Not her, not anyone else. I know for now your options are limited, but once you get into your own place, please start to reassess how you see your relationship with your mother. It sounds like you still feel she's totally in control. But you have every right to take back that control and be entirely in charge of your own life. You are not responsible for her, however much she tries to make you believe you are.

For the record, she sounds hideous. Tree surgeon??! Hitting your DC? Emotional cruelty towards them and you? I know you say she can be nice at times - most of them can, but it doesn't make the abusive stuff ok. She is a danger to you and your DC. You're beginning the process of opening your eyes to what she's really like - it's not an easy process but it will make your life immeasurably better in time, it really will.

Dragonfly I get that you're not really thinking along these lines, but have you ever considered... You don't have to listen to your parents going on about how heartbroken they are?

You don't have to play their game... You could say you don't want to hear it. You could say that you consider them to be at fault, and not your sister. You could tell the truth... Of course, the ultimate consequence of that could be that they cut you off and disinherit you too, and leave all their money to the dogs'/cats' home, and I'm not getting the sense that you feel in any way you want to end your own relationship with them.

But just something to think about. Nobody is making you go along with this charade. Nobody is making you be the mediator. You recognise yourself that this is conditional love. Whereas your sister sounds like a really loving person, considering your feelings in all of this when she's been the target of most of the abuse.

What would be your biggest fear of standing up to your parents and telling them what you really think? (Assuming that you really do think they are in the wrong here.) What would you get out of that - and what do you get out of continuing in your role as mediator? Just a few thoughts... Hope I'm not being too intrusive.

No, you are right, don't worry it's not intrusive. I do know that I don't have to play the game, Talking. I have stood up to them in the past and they do know I will not mediate anymore, I have put some boundaries in place around that. So, although I don't feel responsible for making their relationship with my sister work I don't feel I need to actually tell them how unreasonable they're being. It wouldn't benefit me or my sister at the moment, as they will always find a way to be the victims. (and my sister agrees). I have accepted they are flawed and decided to stay in a relationship with them, totally my choice. I haven't come on the thread to moan but stay in same position, I have just found that it has helped me put their behaviour into context, and a relief to hear from people who understand the whole gc/ scapegoat/ drama triangle. I don't have to see them too often, so that helps obviously! My current stance is to remain calm and rational with them, as anything else fuels the drama. I stay off the topic of family relations and so do they. In this way I think I'm refusing to "play". It might be braver and more honest to challenge them but I have been down that road before and prefer a quiet life. I am not defined by their love or approval ( had a fair bit of therapy to get here!) and feel comfortable with my decision to stay in contact. Nothing to do with inheritance, more due to my own peace of mind. They are too old to change now and don't have any power over me so I can be kind.
You have given me pause for thought and writing this has clarified that how I'm handling it feels right, for now anyway, thank you.

Hi, is it OK if I post on here just to document things and maybe as a sanity check? I've only just come across this thread and I've only skimmed it but will try to read in depth and maybe comment later - although I'm not sure I can help anyone else.

Only child. My parents did take me to stately homes! They weren't ever physically abusive, just extremely controlling, which continued into my adult life until I stopped co-operating. Then we had quite a few years with NC and then gradually I rebuilt a more adult relationship with them.

Mum's now on her own and I'm moving closer to her but my new job starts before my house will sell, so I can't buy a new house yet. Mum suggested I move in with her in the interim: "I've got plenty of room now and it would be silly for you to rent somewhere." It's a very kind offer, we've been getting on very well, and so I said thanks, yes, I'd like that.

On my last visit, she said "You ought to join a choir when you move here. You like singing, you could join xx choir." And it just started ringing alarm bells in my head. Quite possibly it was perfectly well-meaning and an innocent suggestion, but I just feel, if I move in, is she going to start telling me what I "should" do and where I should go all the time? But if I say, "Thanks for the offer to move in, but no thanks, I'll rent somewhere" she'll be genuinely puzzled and hurt. So I guess I have to prepare myself in advance with responses like "Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not interested in that right now."

This is so pathetic compared with some of your problems but I'd like to have it recorded somewhere to remind me. Please feel free to ignore.

It will be taking a high risk to move in.

I think you have two choices: to move in but to make it very VERY clear from the outset that "mum, if you keep makign suggestions as to what to do, then it's going to drive me batty and I don't want that to happen, so better if we have our own spaces" ie, rent. Or just rent from the outset. I think that is wiser.

Its a pity if she's hurt but this does come because she is highly controlling, or trying to be. Given that she backed off far enough during the NC to actually build a relationship again, then there's a chance that it might work ok at her home. But your alarm bells are ringing and you have them for a very good reason. They're worth listening to.

Btw, highly controlling doesnt sound like a pathetic problem to me. Once you escape that sort of thing, you never go back and you never forget what it feels like to have someone try it. Subtler nastiness might not be the same as dramatic, but it's still pretty poisonous.

I suppose really that I think it's much more sensible to rent.

She's used to her own space, it's her house, you will have to fit in around her and very importantly there's the past history. And your alarm bells are ringing.

All the signs are that it's better (if not so cheap) to rent. You'll hurt her worse if you move in and it becomes awful and you have to move out again.