"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Yes, it does take a lot of strength.

But you are entitled to live your life as YOU want it, yongian.

Or as perfectstorm just wrote elsewhere, and it's perfect indeed:

I will never fathom why blood alone should mean you're forced to let people hurt you over and over again, as long as they aren't physically or sexually abusive. It makes no sense. Life is too short to let bad/damaged people screw with you, no matter who they are, unless they are your own kids. You don't owe anyone else your unconditional love and time.

Love the idea of the non-contact police.

But sometimes it's hard not to feel like the "bad daughter police" are closing in, isn't it? Endlessly trying to calibrate, it's not normal, it's not me, it's them...isn't it? So many years growing up like this it can be hard to shake off. But totally understand the manipulations and the public shaming when you won't "behave".

Hello everyone. Attila suggested I join this thread after I posted about my mad mother. I'm not sure I have a right to be here hearing about some of the horrors on this thread but here goes.

I am the product of an unhappy, bitter, lonely and passive aggressive mother. Father left for OW when I was a baby and aside from him turning up to collect his inheritance when his parents died I haven't seen him since I was small. He has had several OW since.

Mum has never got over him leaving (they were together maybe 4 years) and has never even had a boyfriend since (she is late sixties now). She was hard work when I was young, we lived with grandparents and I had to share a room with her until I was 18!! You can imagine what that did to me. She never regained independence and was controlling of me especially when I reached my teens and started dating. She found my contraceptive pills when i was 16 and her reaction was to cause a scene and vomit! As you can imagine I've never been able to confide in her with boyfriend issues.

I have a lovely DH and DC and a hard earned career yet i'm so angry with mum who I felt held me back and ruined my confidence when I was younger. Even now she is so critical and disapproving of everything, it's very wearing. I feel like she'd only be truly happy if my marriage was to fail and I moved home to be controlled. She is terribly passive aggressive and a sulker. She has hardly any friends left as is so critical and as she's got older seems to have no filter between her brain and her mouth. She won't join anything or meet new people and everything is below her. She is also trying to control what we do with DD and is critical of schooling, activities, anything that is 'above us'- she doesn't say specifically but my impression is she resents anything that is not what she did, or the very basic of schooling/activity.

She hints hard/sulks to come on holiday with us but it's a nightmare as she's so controlling when we're there and hideous to poor DH. So I've stopped this but haven't had a conversation with her about why. I feel sorry for her as she's obviously lonely but realised it's not up to me to provide her social life, especially when she is so difficult with us.

Gah, sorry for an essay, feels good to get it out after all these years though.

Welcome code, I got chills reading your post. If I didn't know better I'd think we had the same mum:
Controlling
Horrible to my DH
Interfering with childrearing (and a side order of favouritism of my DS over my DD)
Having to live with her (although later in life)
No friends
Thinks things are beneath her
I could go on.....
Today is exactly one month since I went NC with her.

Welcome too code... Essay away, there is plenty of non-judgemental loveand support on here, as I've found, which has preserved my sanity at times. So sorry you did not have the healthy loving nurturing relationship you deserve with your mother. Only those of us who've lived it / live it know what that's like.
attila Meerka and good ....exhale...thanks...it's good to be amongst virtual friends who get it. Good - is it a month already! Gosh that's gone quick - though not for you maybe! How does it feel now??
attila am inching along to feeling daring to take further steps but it's a slow process. I get the feeling I am being irreversibly painted the bad guy by all sundry right now. I guess all that really matters there is that anyone who really counts will see it as it is,or find out for themselves and it's really only my DH and DCs that matter anyway. Kind of sickens me being scapegoated for others misdeeds and shortcomings though but that's how these things go I suppose.

Yes, yonginan the feeling of it not being fair, of wanting to put the record straight is hard to deal with but I say to myself something along the lines of "those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter".
It's been an odd month. It's feeling more peaceful, which I think is partly due to counselling and partly due to a good chunk of time with no contact. But sometimes it feels weird and sometimes it hurts. I suppose that will be the case for a while/forever to lessening degrees.

Thanks GoodtoBetter and Yongnian. I will go back through the thread to catch up.
GoodtoBetter how are things since you went NC? How did she react?

Well, it's a loooooong story. We've been building up to NC for about 2 years. Short version:
I move to Spain in my 20s. She follows me and buys near me. She claims ill health and manipulates me into living with her. She slags my DH off and then when I won't join in, she threatens suicide, calls me a disappointment and storms off for 4 days. We move out. Difficult relationship for 2 years and then basically more slagging of DH and me to my brother and general passive aggressive shite to me. Turn phone off for a few hours to think about lower contact and she goes batshit, calling, e mailing angry messages about how it's obviously all over and she's going back to the UK. I haven't responded to any of that and here we are, NC.

NC is more peaceful than dealing with her shit but is also difficult emotionally, especially as it's only been a month. Having some therapy which I think will be helpful.

Wow she sounds a nightmare. All you're doing is not fuelling her tantrum. Are you planning to stay NC, is she likely to apologise or does she just sulk for yonks like my mother and eventually it blows over- although she'll bring it up in a 'hurt' way (until the next time)?

She has form for never speaking to people again after an argument, i.e my dad and her sister. So, seeing as she is apparently emigrating I wouldn't put it past her to never speak to me again. Which, is probably the best all round as there really isn't a way back now, there isn't a way to have a relationship with her really after how she's behaved.

That must be hard on you and in many ways also quite liberating.

Just come back from two weeks holiday with my mother which was not good. For the last 5-6 years we've got on better but the holiday went back to the way she was for the first 24 years of my life. She blames me for everything that goes wrong in our family, if she has an argument with my dad its my fault because I make him a worse person when I am around, even though she argues with him when I am not there. If my sister disagrees with her its my fault even though my sister is older than me and just as intelligent etc. I try to reason with her logically, but it doesnt work because her arguments arent logical, and everything gets twisted around to suit her. I get reminded frequently by the whole family that I was a horrble baby and a child and that if they had had me first they would never have had another child, and no one will ever stick up for me.
Today I've been blamed by text - my sister is pregnant and apparently she and her DH told my mother I'd told them she'd make their life hell, which is a complete twisting of my words, I never even said anything like that, and so now its apparently my fault my sister wont take her advice on something and its my fault if she gets ill from it.
I had a misdiagnosed underactive thyroid with a goitre and I was extremely ill until it got diagnoses only a few months ago. But my mum has ME and as I cant be more ill than she is I must be "lazy" rather than ill and my DH freqently gets berated for doing things for me which I cant do for myself.

I feel so miserable because although I'd never lost the fear in my stomach when she phoned or visited ect that she was going to be nasty we were getting on better, but now I am back to being on eggshells contstantly.

I'm 30 on Tuesday and I know she will go out of her way to spoil my birthday, because thats what she does. It just upsets me when I realise that for the last 30 years I have genuinely believed that I am not a nice person because she's made me feel this way, and so inadequate because I cant be more like she wants me to be when actually I am okay as I am. She wants me to hate men and believe they are all stupid, to be as black and white as she is and beleive that people are either all good or all bad, usually all bad, and that no one can do anything nice for someone else without having a nasty ulterior motive. I like to think thats theres good in most people etc

She just can never see that she might be wrong, shes so convinced of her own superiority and righteousness and she manipulates past events until the memories suit her and changes her story to make herself look better

I just do t know what to do, I cant go through another 20 odd years of this but if I fall put with her seroiusly I'll lose the rest of my family and I will be the one hurting whilst she convinces everyone that she waa always right about me and I am a horrible person

Hi Eustacia. That's awful. for you.

The trouble is, when the family dynamic sets up one person as a scapegoat (which your family clearly have done with you), that dynamic builds up so much momentum that those who created it, and those who enabled it, believe their own lies to the extent that they're undisputed fact for them.

You're not going to change this. You're not going to change her. Being on holiday is exactly the kind of set up to bring all this crap to the fore, but it's always going to be there in the background, waiting to rear its ugly head again.

So yes, what do you do? Like you say, you can't go through another 20 years of this. I get that at the moment you can't bear the thought of losing all your family either, but one step at a time. Start trying to detach softly softly, without any big dramatic statements - just make yourself gradually a lot less available.

I would strongly recommend some form of counselling or therapy to deal with all this, as the most important thing is that you don't believe you're a horrible person. This is the biggest challenge in many ways, as when you've been told from year dot that you're the problem, you inevitably believe it.

Be assured that you're not. Believing in yourself is key here.

It's good that you have a supportive DH, from the sounds of it. Focus on your family, your little unit of two (you don't mention DC?) for now, as much as you can, and any other healthy relationships in your life.

I know - believe me, I know - how hard it is to have to cut off from your family, and it's certainly not something you can do overnight, there's no need to make any decisions re that straightaway. But just bear in mind - they don't honestly sound like a great loss from an objective perspective, they've all colluded in the scapegoating from the sounds of it, very telling that you said no one will ever stick up for you. Obviously you're in it, and it's your family, so of course it's not that clear cut! But don't you deserve something better from those who are supposed to love you?

That .... is difficult. It depends on how far the rest of your family see you for who you are, and how far they buy into the scapegoat thing. From what you say, your sister is not actually very helpful here :/ saying something to your mother along the lines of 'eustacia said you'd make life hell' is going to rebound heavily on you and they must know it. That makes your life more difficult and unpleasant.

How does your DH see her?

It sounds like the best thing you can do is to start to back away quietly. No need for a fuss, just contact her less. Pick up the phone less. Work on making things more on your terms.

What triggered the relapse to the way things used to be? It doesnt sound like you can trust her to be consistently loving at all.

code I can't imagine what it must have been like ot live in the same room as her! What an oppressive situation.

You said she was foul to yoru husband. You're doing exactly the right thing in not going on holiday with her. Of a choice between her and your husband, the husband's the right one to choose ... and honestly, she sounds too unpleasant to choose even if he wasn't the right one :/

She sounds pretty scary about your DD. How does she see her? It's okay to limit the time she has with her if she's so controlling and critical. It really is ok to say 'no, you can't criticise her and destroy her confidence the same way you did me".

I have to live with DM for next two months due to new house not being ready. Dh died so moved back.its been hell.she is almost 80 and I'll but won't take medicine properly or see Dr.she is controlling violent and a mean racist. Hates everyone including neighbours. My siblings live overseas one calls once pet month the other visits four times a year.
She hits my DC and the dog and screams abuse so bad I won't repeat.threatens to put my DC in care if I die.one day I was I'll with migraine and she refused to reassure my D's I wasn't dying.I could speak or move. She can be nice and all my friends think she is loverly
I drop kids and sit in my cold car for ages. Hate going home. She won't join a group or learn how to use a mobile or Internet.
Yet I am ungreatfull. She has made it clear my sp status is bad and a matter of shame
She has no friends and I fear as I am staying in same town I will have to care for her.
D's hates her. Its always "after all I have dine for you"
In a mess this morning. Cold and miserable. I give her money and gifts to keep peace and to ensure she stays sweet. Its the only way.
Feel suicidal at times as her rants are terrible but go thought it funny as was so nervous when I got there
Going to walk dog now

Oh crikey. can you definitely get out after 2 months? Is it not possible to stay in a travellodge or something? it would take a fair bit of money :(

I'm sorry for the loss of your husband (and how on earth can she hold it against you that you are a single parent?). But if she is hitting your children I am afraid that you need to warn her once that it's not ok with you and hten if it happens again to ring the police. You have to protect them.

I do have a good idea of what being on the receiving end of those sort of rants are like. Every sympathy. Really, is there any chance at all of getting out? If not, I'm afraid it is police time becuase violence against the children is absolutely not acceptable. I'm sorry. You're in a horrendous situation.

mutter

I reckon you would want to move out of your mother's house within 24 hours if you stayed there at all. You simply cannot and must not do that to yourself; your abusive toxic mother will destroy you and by turn your children utterly if you stay with her at all for any length of time. If she is old and violent then I would let Social Services deal with her; tell Social Services that you are estranged due to her violent behaviour. You need to go no contact with this person as of now.

Where are your boundaries with regards to her; has she managed to make you feel like you are an extension of her?. Stop with the handing over of sweets and money; she deserves neither. You would not tolerate this from a friend, your mother is no different.

agreed, you can't do this - your DC are being hit! please call the police

Thks for replies. Just waiting for house to be rewired. A bit skint at mo after all fees for house
She can be nice at times. I am just so confused. Have had a life time of it. Didn't realise it was toxic until reading stately homes thread. I know it sounds mad but just thought it normal

No. No it's not remotely normal. It's highly toxic. Like lining your walls with cadmium or breathing chlorine.

Hitting children and the Rages are terrifying and not remotely normal. In past times, a controlled smack on the leg or bum was considered acceptable, but it's not now. That was controlled, not uncontrolled hitting btw. I suspect your mother is not controlled at all.

Hi mutter just to add to the wise advice of the other stately-homers...the confusion you talk about is something I can really relate to. It is confusing when somebody you love and who is supposed to love you back, is abusive, controlling or generally toxic because it is not normal or healthy to be abusive. The confusion this generates in us is designed to keep us there in a place of indecision 'should this be happening? Should I stay or go? Is this healthy for me or not?' . Whilst we stay in that confused place the abuse continues.
The process of recognising what is actually happening will begin to clear some of this confusion, and bring clarity, though this can be a long journey. Keep posting and coming back here - the sheer numbers of us that are here surviving remarkably similar things show that you're not alone.
Take care.

In other news, I have had daily nags about this stupid present (if I sound ungrateful, this is a person who has form for keeping presents from other people and giving them in a way that suggests she might have given them herself - have had to explain this to DD many times - as well as controlling via gifts ie to generate attention and drama - one favoured gets big stuff, less favoured some random cheapo thing with price tag on. I have numerous tedious examples of all ths).
I am planning to drop in alone (I'm never the person she actually wants to see) to get it over with.
Hate this for having dominated my whole life. Doing well with it mostly at the mo but do wish I didn't. Its such a waste of time and energy.

Narcs are crap at presents, aren't they? My DM always just gives money (sorry, should be past tense...won't be any more now we're NC). To me, DH, DD even. Only for DS has she bothered researching and buying (online) herself. DS is the favourite you see.

It's true good... Last DD birthday I had The Phone Call to ask what should they buy as '8 is such a difficult age' Really?? Anyone whom you would expect to have genuinely engaged with my DD for more than 5 minutes (like a grandparent) would be under no illusions as to what she's into. Like most kids she will happily tell you all about it/play with you with it...ah, but no, that would require actual relationship.
good is your DD old enough to have the noticed the bias? (before the NC). If so, how did she feel about it?