"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

HI ifuknow and mantra

ifuknow, that's a really tricky one. If it really is confirmed terminal, then it's a nasty nasty dilemma isn't it.

In a way, maybe this is the time to snatch a bit of control back becuase my god, therés nothing a controlling toxic relative likes better than a terminal illness. It's horrendous how they browbeat and manipulate everyone into utter misery with it.

I think you need to read the book Toxic Parents by Forward quite urgently.

Also, no matter what else is going on with her, your family's needs come first. Ok, when someone really is terminally ill certain efforts need to be made. But not at the expense of your own life becoming a misery and subsumed, not to someone who has made your life miserable due to an accident of birth.

It's ok to leave her for a while and to carry on with your own life. It really is. I hope you can keep that in mind.

Regarding christmas, I can see how you don't want to go, but can't not-go either ... if it really is the last one. Can you go just for a certain length of time? say, 3 hours and absolutely invent a commitment you MUST go to after that? if it's not possible to say "we're coming for that time, and that's that".

For your own sake I think it's actually quite important to stand up to her now, right now in these last months. This is kind of difficult to put into words but I'll try. It can help enormously with self respect to regain a measure of control against someone who is so engulfing and manipulative, while she is still alive.

Good luck, it's such a difficult situatoin. But your own family does come first. How does your husband see her btw?

rubbish, what hissy said.

Have you considered or tried skilled therapy? It can really really help for some people.

Dealing with her whne you have to have contact it might help to stop talking about anything at all meaningful to her, if you do at the moment. So, replying to things with 'mmmhmm" or "that's interesting" or "really" or "ah, I hope it goes alright then" etc etc. When she challenges you in the end, "I'm sorry you feel that way, everything is alright".

I would however make it clear that you did not ask for any money and none has arrived and that she has extremely clearly made a mistake that you weren't involved in and you don't wish to discuss it any further. Then literally don't discuss it. Say over and over that it was her mistake and she'll have to sort it out. Keep repeating it. (She doesn't have your bank details does she?)

Your pain is so clear. I hope that you can step back and detach from her. But give yourself time and space to grieve for the mother you wish you had; the loving mother that you should have had and deserve.

Looking through the Fog has a lovely idea. Write two letters, one to her as she is and one to yourself saying what sort of mother you should have had. it's quite a moving and helpful exercise. Don't send the letters of course.

Thank you Hissy and Meerka I'm not at all worried that she won't be cared for - although not to her standards I.e. me waiting on her like a ladies' maid.
Subsumed is exactly the word that describes our relationship, she suffocates me and it's like I'm trapped in a room with the walls closing in.
DH thinks she's a nasty old bag. As for accident of birth, I'm adopted which makes things more complicated because I have deep seated abandonment issues and have been trained to "be thankful she 'rescued' me".
I've read all the books and was doing really well with LC etc. The cancer diagnosis got me dragged back in and I feel I've gone massively backwards now. Some time back home will help.

I was adopted too.

if it's any help - to HELL 'be thankful she rescued me"

SHE made a commitment to rear you well. Rubbing your nose in being adopted is not rearing you well. It's using gratitude as a whip and a straightjacket and underneath all that guilt you should be pretty angry you know. She actually had to make a lot of effort to adopt and you know what? She was LUCKY.

You know how many married people were looking for a baby to adopt? A LOT. She got very lucky and she's misused the trust and faith the social services had in her.

Actually, it's not far different from a birth mother saying "Im your mother, you owe me"

I'm not surprised you have abandonment issues. You werne't a bloody stray pup, you were a lovely human baby and she was lucky, I say again. A shame she didn't know it, or didn't care.

By the way, my adoptive mother was a lovely woman who poured out love and practical common sense. She never spouted this 'you should be thankful' shit and it makes me cross to hear that your mother was so damned unkind.

Back in the 60s my parents didn't have to jump through all the hoops prospective adopters do today. I'd like to think she wouldn't pass nowadays!
Babies for adoption were in plentiful supply back then with no benefits for single Mums. I think we've gone too far the other way now, but that's for another thread.
Yes I have been made to feel like a possession. When I found my birth mother DM said that she "had no claim on me" as they had an adoption certificate proving I belonged to them. Like deeds to a house I thought!
I don't have any contact with my birth mother. I couldn't face the possibility of two difficult mothers. My MIL is an absolute gem btw, she's like a proper loving Mum to me.

hrm, i was a 1969 baby adoptee and I had the strong impressioin it wasn't as easy as all that. My mother didn't find it easy at all to get me, though she didn't have to go through the in-depth tooth combing they do now. Maybe that toothcombing is a good thing, people like your mother and my adoptive father certainly didn't deserve to have a baby. My birt mother had to give up the baby due to yes, lack of money and also lack of family both.

So glad to hear about your MIL. Mine is wonderful too ... isn't it lovely to find someone who is just there and loving? :)

Flight booked to go home at the weekend. Have had a few thank-you's from DM today. She's trying to keep me sweet so that I come back.
I find stepping back and watching her play her game, without engaging myself helps. I'm sounding very brave, will probably go to pieces when she becomes more ill.

Good for you ifuknow keep talking to your H and get him to help you stay strong.

Let her go. She's done nothing but harm to you lovey.

Standing back and watching her tactics is a great idea, you will see how methodical and calculated it all is. The nicey-nicey is a ploy and you know it.

ifuknow,

DM is still trying to suck you back in by being "nice". Such people do not change. Keep talking to your DH.

I realise that your mother is ill now but that is no excuse or justification for you having to put up with being subsumed by her any more.

There will usually be two differing behaviours for the narcissist who discovers they have cancer or any other life-threatening illness. There will be an enormous amount of self-pity and an incredible amount of complaining (NPDs are not known for their stoicism). But there will also be an unusual form of self-importance evident. This is because the presence of the illness brings them extra attention, something which they thrive on.

For the narcissist, having a serious illness is a two edged sword. Most of us are horrified and afraid – they are too – but they are also able to sublimate part of that fear by having their innate sense of entitlement attended to – what with neighbours and doctors and family members flocking around them in order to help.

And if they get over the illness, they do not change. This is one of the hallmarks that illustrate the pervasive nature of narcissism and all the personality disorders. When a person has a personality disorder, it is truly that – a disorder of the personality. It is fixed by a certain age – around the mid 20s – and does not change after that. Therefore the relief that most of us would experience when given the all-clear by the doctors will stay with an ordinary person and likely the changes they made during the course of their illness will persist. There will be joy that life will go on, at least for a little while longer.

NPDs do not have the emotional intelligence to see that they have been spared and that they can change their lives and most importantly, value the people in their lives. This is simply not an available option to them. In fact, it is not unknown for some narcissists to be disappointed when the medical outcome is positive as they are no longer the centre of attention. As weird as this may sound, the spotlight is no longer on them to the same extent and they don’t react favourably to that.

I would also certainly look into having skilled therapy as this could certainly help you going forward.

I'd agree with almost all of what attila says. Just one small point though, some people with BPD can change and improve, it's the one PD with a reasonable chance of improvement ... as long as it's not to severe.

If the person actually wants to change and get well, that is.

Agree with everything you say Attila DM has always loved being the star of the show, and is definitely enjoying having lots of sympathy, although to be fair anyone with terminal cancer deserves that. But it's all about her, she doesn't ask how DH is coping with me away, or how I feel about things.
She's very bitter that she has the illness and says things like "I shouldn't have this, x should because she smokes/is overweight/drinks too much" just nasty really.
She has on a couple of occasions shamelessly used the 'I've got cancer' card to get her own way.
It would be nice to have some good memories after she's gone but I can't see that happening, it makes me sad. I'd hate to think my DC didn't remember me fondly.

She's still using the illness card to get her own way now, she certainly has you still dancing to her tune. She trained you well I am sorry to say but you do not need her approval any more (not that she ever gave that anyway).

Its NOT your fault she is like this; her own family of origin did that to her.

It is not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

If you do choose to visit her (and I certainly would not pay out for any more flights back to see her now) I would spend as little time as possible (say no more than 15 minutes) in her company. I would also make this visit too your last visit. I would also agree with Hissy's suggestion to refer her to Social services for a care package.

LC for you re your mother needs ultimately to become NC. I would also suggest you look at the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

You need to put yourself and your family first now, she's done more than enough damage to you.

ifuknow,

I would also suggest you read "Will I ever be good enough" by Dr Karyl McBride.

Hi,

I've been lurking on here for a while, but haven't had the courage to post.

I think my mother is a narcissist.

I'm not really sure how to follow that. There are far too many stories for one post.

I guess I'm only recently coming to terms with it. I still see her once a week or so. I don't really want to, but I don't know how to go about cutting ties.

Hiya mummy and puffin

mummy would it be possible to graduallly build up? to say 'we're busy this week, see you next week though?" and then gradually build up from there? Also, read Toxic Parents by Susan Forward, it's got some excellent analyses of what goes on and how people react. Good hints on how to handle things too.

It's clear you're a little bit afraid of her reactions or you'd not be posting here. Try to start off gently. At some point there might be ructions but they will probably be further down the line. Do you have anyone supportive aorund you like a partner or sibling or close friend who knows what you're dealing with?

puffin scapegoating is pretty common. Can you talk to your sister who was also put down?

Regarding your other siblings, the position is maybe not that great. If they really cared about what was going on, they'd have contacted you. :( I'm sorry. They might also have seen some of the different treatment of you growing up, but be afraid to challenge their mother or even their own version of reality.

You can try to write to them, but don't hold out much hope. If they go along with the gossiping and backbitching then they are probably in her pocket.

it's very hard, but you might be wisest to grieve the loss of the family you wish you had and accept that what you actually have is pretty rotten and poisonous, and you don't need them. Even if you feel you miss family. Poisonous people are not good people to stay in contact with.

Thank you so much Meerka and Hissy for your replies.

I have completely detached I wish from her. It's just that my Dad has had several strokes, and he has blood clots, which (apparently) means he could have another stroke at any time. How on earth do I maintain my relationship with him, whilst keeping her at arm's length? i live a long way from them. If she is upset, she takes it out on him. She has told me that he cannot have stress - in spite of forcing him to go NC with one of my sisters, the one he is closest to. All my mum does is complain about us to each other, she decides periodically who is the 'golden child'.

She tells him that he 'should be grateful that he has his sight and has a lovely home and garden to sit in.' (her words, SHE told me this)

If I do something she doesn't like, changing my appearance for example, she implies the shock of seeing that may exacerbate my Dad's condition.

I am at a loss how to keep on plaiting this fog.

can you stay neutral, neutral neutral in dealing with her? Present a polished stone wall ... "I'm sorry you feel that way", "I understand that's your point of view", "really?" etc.

It will annoy her when she realises what's gonig on and maybe she will take it out on your father but you cannot be responsible for the way she treats other people. She is her own person. You can maybe bend a bit in order to soften the worst effects but you can't bend too far.

Just as a question, she sounds like a heck of a game player. How has your father coped all these years?

Regarding the idea that the shock of your appearance exacerbates your father's condition, might it help to breeze through it "oh you don't think he'd like it if I turned up in blue hair then?" or "oh I was planning on getting a tattoo!" and laugh. Again, you are not responsible for her reactions to things. (mind you the nasty side of me would be tempted to answer "new hairstyle exacerbating his condition? Nah that was being made to cut off [sister]" ... don't say that!).

From the sound of it your mother will be very sure to keep her nose in if you spend much time with your father. The best I can suggest is keeping neutral and capitalizing on the few mins you do get alone with him.

Not been around for a bit because been busy with youngest starting school and puppy peeing everywhere!

Just checking in, saying hello to newbies.

DH told Mum about the puppy and has taken the heat for it because he didn't want me so stressed anymore. Had a barny with him because I said he is effectively enabling her even though he was trying to save me!

Hello! Glad to hear you didn't have to have an argument with your parents in the end financial. What is their objection to the puppy anyway?

have they ever had a good result from trying to explain?

Yes, if the person they are talking to basically loves them and basically is reasonable. Sometimes people really do hurtful things becusae they simply don't realise that the other person is affected. Teasing in particular.

But if they are fundamentally are more concerned with themselves and their own self-image than the other person, thne don't bother. In your shoes given that they laugh about you round the dining room table (how bloody mean!), it's not worth trying it. You'd be handing them ammunition.

if you're their scapegoat, they'll just see it at bleating and laugh the more.

I would go to the event and be neutral. if you mother kicks off, firstly that is her responsibility not yours. Either say 'this is not the time and the place, if you want to discuss something then do it another time" or say simply "I'm tired of being your laughing stock, I don't want to discuss it. Goodbye" and move off.

The fantasy of them apologising is what we'd all like .... really is. But it's never going to happen :/ The reality is that you'd justs be handing them ammunition.

---

hiya good - how was the holiday? :) I hope all is quiet on the batshit biddy front.

Hi Meerka,

It was fabulous! So relaxing! I had no internet access except some wifi in a cafe twice for about half an hour so it meant I totally (well, almost - had a couple of stress dreams) switched off from it. Lots of fresh air and early nights. Got back yesterday and it all seems a bit more distant. Haven't replied to my uncle yet (and nothing from mad old bint) and will probably just send something saying something like "I appreciate you want to help, but her behaviour makes any contact with her impossible at the moment". Probably not even that until I've had my first session with the counsellor next week.
Dbro said she skyped him last week and it was all woe is me bollocks:

She can't drive (that's just bullshit, looking for sympathy)

She'll have to live in a B&B in NI as she's too poor to buy. Again this is bullshit, she can rent until the house sells as she has about 2500€ a month pension. She could live in a travelodge for about 2 years, purely on her savings she has here (she has other savings in the UK)

She's clearing the house out

She may have to abandon the cats and go without them

If she falls and breaks her hip, she couldn't contact anyone and nobody could get in....

Blah, blah....

No word of apologising, building bridges, her relationships with us, her GC...

Total, total, total batshit mental crazy. If she hadn't been displaying all these tendencies to lesser degrees my entire life I might think it was dementia, but it's not she's just a totally self centred, embittered old bitch.

DD did her first day at preschool and DS his first at primary and I'm back to work on Tuesday but only part time. Feel much lighter since we went away, the distance was good.

PuffinAway

You've been designated as the family scapegoat for all their familial ills and if you say anything to them it will be used by them against you. They know how badly you have been treated by them and they do not care at all for you.

I realise that you want to go to this family occasion to support the person it is for but is this particular person fully understanding of the dynamics here?. This is a question that has to be considered. Would he/she be willing to remove your mother from the room in the event that your mother started on you?.

Such people do not change and if your mother is indeed a narcissist it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with such a person.

Toxic people never apologise nor take any responsibility for their actions.

Re this comment:-

" Was I unfair to not tell them what was bothering me and give them the chance to make it right? Or am I just being naïve?"

You're being far too nice re them as well as naïve. I will give you a further example of such behaviour from my own self:-

My DH (bless his cotton socks) tried to shake his brother's hand (he is a nasty narcissist who decided to go NC with us) as a friendship gesture on the occasion of his parents golden wedding. If I had known that he was going to do that I would have done everything in my power to dissuade him from doing so!!!. But he did not tell me and the upshot was that his brother got up and walked away without saying one word. He learnt a harsh lesson that day and he finally realised.

I would not let your Dad off the hook either because he has let you down abjectly as well.

In a family situation where you have a Narcissistic Mother, you also need to have an Enabling Father. The only other possibilities are that the father is also narcissistic, or one who is gone. A man who stands up to his wife will not be tolerated for long, or will not find his life tolerable for long, and will either leave or be kicked out. Narcissists simply don't have healthy and functioning relationships, and so there is either no relationship, or a dysfunctional and enabling one. Their love is likely to be actually an unhealthy co-dependency (co-dependency often features in relationships where alcoholism is present as well).

An Enabling Father is one who panders to the Narcissistic Mother, who facilitates her abuse of the children, who worships completely at her altar and expects the children to do so too. He failed completely to protect you from her and did not want to do so. He acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.