"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Hi all. Nothing from either Dm or uncle. Uncle said he would write over the weekend and, while it was good his e mail wasn't blamey, as Dbro says it's a guarded e mail and he's said he's going to write again, so he may try to engineer a making up situation, which obviously I'm not doing (or talking about her to him further).

Have contacted Dbro's therapist and he does skype sessions!!!!! He's expensive but I have some savings so I'm going to try and sort some sessions ASAP to sort my head out a bit.

I have not posted on here before, but was so glad to find it as I didn't realise so many people had the experience I did! I'll try and keep this brief, and would really like some advice/help...

I grew up in an emotionally abusive home, love was conditional, we were often told that they'd wished they'd never had children, siblings pitted against one another, very lazy parenting. Then 5 years ago my gran left us money in a will, my mother firmly believed all the money should have been hers, so asked us all to give her the money. I agreed to... it's just money and I wished to keep the peace. My brother and sister refused, so my Dad said I should keep the money as it wasn't fair that the other 2 got it and I didn't.

Fast forward 5 years later and my mother sent me a letter before my wedding saying she didn't want to attend, as I didn't care anymore as I kept the money. She now hardly speaks to me, and my Dad (they're still together) sends sporadic emails, but I have to instigate contact.

The upsetting thing is I have just had a baby, their Grandchild, and I haven't even had a card. I've done nothing wrong but for some reason they've got a warped memory of how everything happened. I've tried to be the model child throughout, and have never so much as sworn at them and always tried to make them proud.

They're treating my terribly, and I fear I need to just let them go... the thing is how do I do this? I am assertive in other aspects of my life and would never put up with this behaviour from someone else!!

Any help would be gratefully received... tia x

Welcome Etienne

First of all my hearty congratulations to you on the birth of your baby.

Your parents, both of them, have abjectly failed you and continue to do so. Its not your fault that they are the ways they are; their own families did that lot of damage to them. What if anything do you yourself know about their own childhoods?. That often gives clues.

Some parents really should not have any access at all to their grandchildren and yours are a case in point. You've been nice and its all been ignored. Most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

Do not allow these two to have any access whatsoever to your child. They were rubbish parents to you and they will be rubbish grandparents to your child. Their behaviour of re-writing history is also absolutely typical.

Put boundaries in place for your own self; if you have to instigate contact to get any response from your dad stop making contact of any sort.

BTW does either your brother and sister have any sort of a relationship with them these days?

You've done what many adult children of such toxic people do; always be on their good side and try so desperately to make them proud of you. You do not though have to seek their approval any longer, not that they'd ever give this to you freely anyway or at all. Like many such adult children as well you still want them to like/love you and have approval from. It won't happen but its NOT your fault they are like this. Your Dad seems to be the bystander in all this and stays with his wife for his own selfish reasons, he probably needs someone to idolise. You cannot rely on him to protect you from your mother.

Presumably after your dad's intervention you kept this money. Were you at all surprised by your brother's and sister's refusal to hand their share of the cash over to mum?. You were all entitled to it anyway; it was left to you and your siblings by your Nan (its probably someone whom your mother hated herself), she wanted you to have these funds. Your mother being selfish and self absorbed wanted this money for her own self, I can understand why you so readily wanted her to have this cash because you were that conditioned by her to do so.

I would read the resources at the start of this thread if you have not already done so along with finding a counsellor to talk to. You also need to find someone who has no bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment; that is very important.

Thanks so much for your reply, just talking about this is helping already.

And Wow, you've hit the nail on the head throughout your reply to me!

Yes my Gran and Mum did not get along, and my Mum believes giving the money to us was her final insult. Their own childhoods were full of emotional neglect and lazy parenting.

Yes my mum has a mental disorder (depression) and she refuses therapy and just relies on pills which isn't treating the problem.

My sister has a very unhealthy relationship with my mother, whereby she calls every day, and cries uncontrollably (she's 30) when my mother leaves after visiting.

My brother, who also has 2 children, 5 and 2yo (that my parents have never bothered to meet) doesn't speak to them at all.

You're so right about my own child, I love him to bits and don't want their negativity/toxicity coming anywhere near him.

I will take your advice and not initiate contact. I did consider writing my Mum a letter and explaining my side of things (I never have) but would this be pointless?

Hi Etienne

I would not initiate any contact at all with your mother; no good will come of it. She does not want to hear or acknowledge your valid point of view.

The facts that your brother's family does not speak to them (and your parents have never bothered to meet these children either) speaks volumes.

Hi Etienne

Welcome.

How hard to be ignored by your own parents and your Dad is enabling her behaviour All over a will that wasn't written by you.

The truth is it probably is better not to have them in your life as Attilla said. If they were bad parents, they'll be terrible grandparents but it must hurt so much to realise how little they care about you.

I wouldn't write a letter to her. As Attilla says she won't listen. It'll hurt even more to get no response or for her to reply denying it and abusing you more. She's completely dysfunctional and toxic and won't respond like a normal kind caring person. I'm sorry.

Good the skype therapy sounds like a great idea.

Thanks so much for your replies.

It is hard to be ignored by my own mother, and since becoming a Mum myself (17 days ago!) I have become increasingly angry with how I've been treated, and it has upset me more than it ever has.

You're right; I know that if I were to write a letter the lack of response would hurt me more. I guess I wanted to finally have my say and put my view across... but she must know how terrible she's been she doesn't need me to spell it out.

My sister unfortunately has created much of my mums animosity, by lying about me and things Ive said.

She's a spiteful horrible person, for example she text me the day after my wedding saying 'mum said it was shit anyway'. lovely. I'm hoping as I've remained a good person throughout karma will get her, in the end! Part of me was wanting to maintain contact as it galls me to know my sister will get their house when they die, but some things in life are more important than money.

It's just so hard to completely walk away, but I know I need to.

HI paranoid, have a cuppa tea. Yeah, lookingthruthefog suggested writing a letter first and it was a great idea. How are you doing?

Hi etienne too. it sounds like your parents are just not interested in any grandchildren of theirs ... and objectively, that's a good thing if you consider how they treated you and your siblings. Your sister sounds as though she has been profoundly distorted by them and is both pitiable and vicious.

The thing with writing a letter to her is that she will not let it actually touch her. She will almost certainly either not care, or get angry / punishing either overtly, or else possibly by reverse-anger: appearing to ask for forgiveness, crying and saying how awful she is but really making it all about her and not actually considering you or apologizing sincerely.

I think you actually want loving parents, but that the ones you got aren't loving at all. It sounds as if you're thinking that something, somehow, will get through to them but sadly, it won't.

Let yourself see them for what they are - selfish and poor parents - and grieve for the loss of the parents that you wanted. It is a loss, when we finally realise how poor they are.

Hi Etienne

Your sister sounds awful too . I know how tempting it is to write to your mother but I think she'll probably just twist things and turn it back on you and make it your fault.
Nothing from DM now for 48 hours. Enjoying the peace but also thinking, she doesn't even care enough to apologise. Straight away she was in there with "you're obviously never going to speak to me again, I'll have to leave the country". No apology, not even an insincere one. She would rather be "right" than maintain a rl. Don't get me wrong, I don't want rl with her now, but she's not even tried to make amends, just tries to frighten me into submission or claims she doesn't know what she's done. She loves me but doesn't know.what she's done. She hopes the empty words will bring me running without her having to apologise. She gave up pretty easily, didn't she? That hurts too.

Oh good I'm so sorry it hurts. How could it not. And you're reaching a painful realisation that you can't have a relationship with her. Hope the therapist can help a little and we're all here to listen x

good, thinking of you.

Mind you it's possible she's just regrouping her efforts

Probably. Still shit though that she can't even apologise. I'd be begging and pleading, wouldn't you?

Yeah, you're normal though and see your children as people not as blurry objects who are mainly there for you.

good I can totally relate...every time I fight off a bout of toxic comms from my M...she just doesn't bother...fact is they don't care in a genuinely nurturing way....we exist only to bolster them...and if we're not playing the game...they sulk....it does hurt though...I think that's the grief for not having a healthy loving parent kicking in...
Hi etienne and paranoid...welcome...I've not been here long myself but it's saving my sanity! hope you find comfort here too.
LOL at whoever said up thread that with other survivors of toxic families, you ask things like 'been reeled in with the 'major health drama' lately?' or 'how's the triangulation going?' rather than 'got any plans for christmas?' !!!
Me personally am being ignored at the mo since I didn't respond to flying monkey followed by unsolicited cash loan offer text (she's so PA in her comms style she's like some kind of debt collection company!!) wow, I've had a whole two and half days of peace. Bound to be some holy crapola brewing.
Am contemplating writing details of my story on here...haven't done so far for fear of outing myself then reprisals...but feeling more and more like I don't actually care what the outcome is and my need for support is greater.
Feeling the strong urge to 'tell'.

yeah i felt like that too at first Yongian, now somehow it seems to matter less if I'm outed.

made me laugh too, the 'how's the triangulation going?' thing.

It helped me a few months - well actually it's only weeks - when I realised that my super-controlling loveless father isn't actually my father, he's just an unpleasant acquaintance. I'd faced that he wasn't a good father a long time ago and grieved for that, but somehow recently it struck me that his behaviour isn't fatherly at all.

looking's idea of writing a letter about what a father should be really helped because I thought of all the points of a good father, and then looked at the reality. It drove home again that the actual man is not a father.

in fairness before my adoptive mother died, he was much better. He was never really a hands on Dad, my uncle said he was 'not paternal', but he did care then and spent some time with me which I remember fondly.

An apology to US is not a big deal, we screwed up, we didn't mean it, we're sorry. Perhaps because we are so conditioned to being told we are in the wrong?

These people can't say what we have been saying over and over and over.

Sorry for not being good/clever/pretty/thin/blonde/tall/successful/whatever enough.

To us sorry is easy. to them it's the end of the world.

Admitting they were wrong.

But yes, it hurts SO much that we matter SO little for someone to evaluate their position and admit they could have done things differently.

I agree Hissy. My mother never ever apologises. She has still never apologised for Christmas 2012, why would she? She wasn't in the wrong you see. She is the victim, always. Of me, of DH, of her own DH......endlessly.

Wailing to my uncle..."I'm so disraught, my daughter's cut me off, I don't know why, I'll never see the DGCs again, waaa!" but has she cried and begged for forgiveness? No. We've had the "how fucking dare you cross me, you bitch" rage and some empty words about how she loves me (when nothing else worked) no apology and now silence.

Weirdo bitch.

wow, good :D

you come over as a lovely, generally very forgiving, caring person. But boy, the Mama bear is scary when she's roused!

< cheers her on >

Weirdo bitch is very, very apt, for my mother too....

I call my narcissist BIL dysfunctional; weird does not even begin to cover his many and varied versions of reality. And he does narc rage like GoodtoBetter's mother has done to GoodtoBetter.

I sincerely hope that your uncle believes your version of events but I would not place full faith in him actually doing so simply because he is her brother.

You are strong but waivering and FOG is not uncommon (as is getting really angry with such people); keep strong and keep posting here as and when you need support.

It really resonates Meerka about what you said about your Father, he's an unpleasant acquaintance, that's how I try and view my parents now, as hideous people I wouldn't want to know in my life, blood or not...

yongnian It is great to be here and share my experience, all my friends have got such lovely mothers I didn't think anyone else really understood! I too felt I may get found out on here, but it is important to share, it's very cathartic!

I was talking to someone today about what age to have children, and one of the "negative" sides to me of having become a mother late in life is that I had all those years without my DS. Realistically I won't be around for as much of his life either (although I've heard somewhere that older mothers live longer than average, so I'm clinging to that!) and that for me is hard, I just want to be around for as much of his life as possible. (In a letting him get on and live his own life sort of way, obvs!)

The reason I'm mentioning that is re the comments about parents making so little real effort to put things right when they've fucked up. My parents too, they've done just enough that they can wail say to their friends "oh we tried everything but she didn't want to know, we wish we knew what we could do" but they've never done the few very simple things that would/could lead to a reconciliation. And never will.

So I'm here, they're here, but we're not in each other's lives, and the bottom line is that they can live with that, quite nicely. It doesn't eat them up, it doesn't taint every other aspect of life for them, it doesn't stop them doing any of the things that they've always enjoyed doing, they still prioritise "having a lovely time" over anything and everything else.

Whereas if - God forbid - anything like this ever developed between me and DS, there would be nothing more important to me than sorting it out, taking responsibility for putting the relationship right and making sure he didn't have to live without my love and support. (Again, in a sense of respecting his separateness as a person, I don't mean a smothering way - just that not to have the love and support of a parent is a big loss that you wouldn't want inflicted on a child you love, whatever age they were.)

These bastards are so completely selfish. So completely unable to step outside their own little bubble of what they need and see what their children might need.

Anyway, time for me to pay some attention to what my own little person needs right now!!