"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

It's July 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013
February 2014
April 2014

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller

Personality Disorders definition

More helpful links:

Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker

Some books:

Homecoming
Will I ever be good enough?
If you had controlling parents
When you and your mother can't be friends
Children of the self-absorbed
Recovery of your inner child

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

That's the thing they are selfish bastards. I've got more compassion and love in my little finger than my parents put together. I'm currently feeding my 18 day old boy and would do anything for him, and same as you it will be my responsibility to sort problems out between us, as I am the parent.

my parents never even read to me, we were only washed once a week, we were told she'd 'wished she'd never had kids' and told 'don't have kids it's not all it's cracked up to be' on a daily basis. Our uniform was often dirty, and they used to chain smoke inside around me, and as a child I had asthma. awful, awful.

It's so nice to hear you say that, etienne (oh and hello! ) I sometimes feel like I'm living in a parallel universe to other people. To me it's so self-evident that the responsibility always lies with the parent to take the lead in a relationship, that even when the child is an adult the dynamic of the relationship is such that the parent is the one whose job it is to make sure things are going right. The parent is the one who is entrusted with the welfare of the child, not the other way round! And because of the imbalance of power when that relationship is first formed, equality is not really likely, so the parent needs to be mindful of that.

But I don't think this view is very widely held. A lot of people seem to see parents and adult children on an equal footing and having equal responsibility for the well being of the relationship; some take it further and see the adult child as owing a permanent debt of gratitude to the parent for being the parent (even when they did a really shit job) and therefore see the adult child as having more responsibility for the relationship than the parent.

Completely skewed.

(Obvs not so nice to hear how your parents treated you, sorry, hope it didn't come across that way! They sound beyond awful. Sorry.)

good started a thread about parenting when had iffy parents yourself. There's a link to another thread and it's amazing. It talks about sometimes it's hard to fully engage with your children and hard to see them really enjoying themselves and resentment ... it's a very honest thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1720096-Parenting-resources-for-those-raised-by-narcissists?pg=1

Meerka I am mama bear, hear me roar! . Seriously though, the anger helps power me through sometimes, but Attila is right about the all pervasive FOG. The more days I have no contact with her, the better, but I still fret about whether I have behaved cleanly enough. Maybe I should have responded and told her why? Maybe I should have answered the phone last Thursday. But I know really none of it would have made any difference.

I imagine her never seeing the GC again (maybe asking family for photos or telling people she has GC but "isn't allowed to see them") and I feel guilty, which is ridiculous. I feel frightened actually, it seems a really serious step to take, I can imagine people balking at that and thinking me unreasonable but then I go round in circles as I know there is no way she can be allowed to see them. Does this make any sense? I feel like I've been put in the position of having to go NC and yet, it feels like such a huge, huge step. I think I need some serious therapy. :) (First session ont he 16th sep).

I think the only way to cope is to take it day by day and enjoy not having anything to do with her in the meantime. Nothing today either. Nothing to Dbro either, he says she's has dumped him now he's of no use to her.
He's quite pleased about that.

And yes, Meerka that thread is great. Going to have a good read through again.

it is a very big step to take and the FOG is thick still, good. It'll take a fair while til you can see the sunlight. You've come an enormously long way.

It's ok to regret that it's been necessary. But you can't live with batshit crazy hanging over your heads ready to plop poop all the time.

Urgh been looking at the cost of school shoes tonight online. Bah so much money for my 2 DCs.

Yongnian you can always ask for it to be deleted in a day or so after writing the details down here, if it helps to share?

Meerka I'll visit your thread tomorrow as I'm on my way to bed. It sounds great.

Goodto never feel you have to explain yourself to others on why you're nc. In fact don't tell them. People at work cannot understand why I avoid seeing Dad. I gave up explaining long ago. Unless you're in that situation you cannot understand.

Tomorrow night I get to watch my girl on stage. No GPs just me and DS watching. Can't wait. So proud of her. This makes life worth while. These moments

Thanks Meerka and Dont. I can still feel myself cycling thru the FOG . I think maybe part of it is my love for my DCs I can't believe she can behave this way towards them, that she's not sorry for hurting us/them. I think the imagining her not ever seeing them again makes me sad because it would destroy me if I were her, it truly would so it feels like such a terrible thing. I would do anything, beg, plead.....which she hasn't....won't. Do I make sense?

yes it does.

I suspect she doesnt really believe that you've gone NC yet, that you'll give it a while and will re-estabilish contact.

I think also that (in the nicest possible way) you're projecting. She's her. You are you.

Total sense, Good. That's how I feel, I would move heaven and earth to not lose contact with DS or any DC he might one day have... So it's hard to see their perspective. But it doesn't destroy them, that's the thing. My mother and father, at any rate, just have the attitude of "carry on regardless". If it did destroy them not to see their DGC/us, then they would do whatever it takes - they would listen and accept responsibility.

It's a trap though because that pushes the responsibility back onto us to make things right for them, because we do care. Which of course just leads to more of the same crap as always. It's hard because you have to make yourself as callous as they are, to deal with them, and when you're not naturally like that it just feels wrong. Doesn't mean it is wrong, though.

talking it's ok, I was fortunate enough to go to some good schools, make good friends, and have always had a support network outside the family home, and it's only as an adult I've realised how badly I was treated. At the time I was actually quite happy (I spent my childhood playing sport so was rarely in the house, which was good).

I absolutely agree that the parents should go the extra mile when it comes to reconciliation. Whereas in my relationship I'm a non assertive mug who just puts up with their shit again and again... well at 28 and now a Mum, I'm not going to do it anymore. If they want contact THEY have now got to make the effort. I don't think they've called me in 10 years... they haven't been to visit me in about 3 years! They even couldn't be bothered to come to my wedding, so I rang them crying, and begged. And all this and I have done nothing wrong!!

Sorry to be thick, but what does NC and FOG mean?

not thick at all, the numbe rof acronyms on here is amazing.

NC = no contact. LC = low contact.

FOG = fear, obligation and guilt, the delightful trio

Also if need be, EA = either emotionally abuse or emotional affair depending on context.

and PA = passive aggressive

Goodtobetter I am still in the fog too, and I still find it challenging to the point of wanting to throw up to go against my parents at nearly 40 with 2 DC. My husband thinks I should just tell them to go shaft themselves but as we all know it is not that simple.

They live way too close not to bump into them on a weekly/monthly basis and they actively seek me out to help be disappointed in me

My crime this week? Get a pup.

I know this needs to stop and I probably need to get my arse down the GP for CBT and change my phone numbers!

Sorry that turned into a pity party. I have literally no one to talk to that would remotely understand.

I wish I could switch off from her

Thank you for listening.

Hi financialwizard it's really really hard. The fear I find awful I don't actually know what I'm afraid of, isn't that silly? Just her I guess, her reactions, being "wrong". Sigh. I think you need to really plan how to lower your contact bit by bit. Mine is at least enough of a bitch to engineer situations where she behaves so outrageously mad that there isn't much choice but to go NC.
Still nothing from her today, if she lasts til tomorrow it'll be 4 days with nothing from her, she'll have beaten her personal best. I think it's just that there's tennis on atm, obviously more important than apologising to anyone.
Nutter.

Not silly about the fear at all. That is exactly how I feel. I can't tolerate it.

My only consolation is that my eldest see's right through my Mum and my youngest doesn't like her (Nanny is mean) because of the way she berated her for a minor offence.

FinancialWizard,

Fear is powerful indeed (as is obligation and guilt) but I would say feel the fear and do it anyway.

I would seriously consider blocking all her means of communication from you; block her number from your phone. As for counselling via the GP I would look into that but counselling on the NHS can take an age to set up and is limited in its number of sessions provided.

Read up on going Low Contact and see if that is doable for you; ultimately that course well lead to No Contact with your parents anyway.

Your children are very perceptive; I would keep them well away from your mother because they really do not need at all to be exposed to her manipulation. If she is too difficult/toxic for you to deal with its the self same for your vulnerable and defenceless children.

I'm going to ask for my posts with the letters I received and wrote to be deleted now as they're a bit personal. Thanks for all the help with composing/replying/not replying.
I agree with Attila that LC would be a good idea, although it will probably lead to NC eventually anyway.

I personally think there is a valid psychological reason for the fear, which is what makes it so potent and hard to go against.

The way I see it, as children we are genuinely 100% dependent on our parents, both physically and psychologically. If we sense that our parents' love and approval is conditional, then we sense somehow that our actual life is in danger, because if they withdraw their approval and refuse to care for us, or actively hurt us, then we are not even physically safe, let alone emotionally.

I think this plays out at a deep, unconscious level in infancy and leaves a deep and lasting fault line, as it were, whereby we associate the loss of our parents' approval with the potential loss of our actual life.

(And obviously in the very worst case scenarios, this actually is the end result... It is a very real fact that as children, our lives are in our parents' hands.)

Even when there is no major threat to our physical well being, I think that the fear of what could happen if we lose their love/approval completely is very real and becomes embedded, and because it is for the most part unconscious, it will persist even after we are no longer dependent on them for our physical or emotional survival.

That's what I think, anyway. Just saying that to try and make sense of why that fear is so strong - it seems unreasonable and irrational but its roots are in fact entirely reasonable and rational.

that makes sense to me, talking

if you connect that with the way that you kind of keep needing your parents' love even as an adult, if you didn't get enough as a kid, ... well, it's easy to see why it's so overpowering.

what helped me was about 8 years ago beginning to see that nothing I did for my father would be good enough. Something, somewhere deep inside eventually revolted at endlessly trying to kowtow to him and stammer excuses for not being good enough. It's taken 8 years since then to get to the point of thinking him a tosser - and even then, I don't know if I could laugh at him to his face. Quite frankly that's all he deserves. I don't want to see him any more, so it might be moot.

But 9 years ago I could not have even considered that because I was still craving his love and approval and pride.

that's just me financial But might any of it apply to you? (quite possibly not; everyone's different!)

How's everyone today?

I think your theory about fear makes a lot of sense too Talking. Never thought about it that way before....but can see lying in my arms right now, my beautiful little 6mo...so dependent....and her developing brain being shaped by the quality of love and care she receives (according to 'Why Love Matters' by Sue Gerhardt - a view I subscribe to). If, at some point in her life she needed to stand up to me...she would to have been given a secure basis to do so...toxic parents don't do this, I think...so in terms of attachment theory, we are literally putting ourselves at extreme risk of non-survival by going against our parent.
Not expressing myself clearly, am frankly a bit exhausted by it all at the moment.
meerka that's a great idea about asking for it to be deleted after a while...didnt know you could do that, so thanks.
etienne congrats on being a Mum! There is something very empowering that kicks in with motherhood in not wanting to continue this crap, I found...it gave me a strength and a determination I never knew I had...
financial wizard you are entitled to make adult decisions...enjoy your pup
X

good to the endless questioning over whether one behaved cleanly when it goes quiet is hard I find...but that's because we do genuinely give a s**t...they won't be questioning themselves.How are you feeling emotionally about it all? I feel utterly spent right now, personally.

Talking, that makes a lot of sense. We covered it a lot in therapy - how at during those formative years, very early on, we're conditioned how to behave. So when we cry, it's because we want comfort, and if that comfort is continuously denied, then we learn from that. It's a deep-seated instinct - I need you, please help me... and then the fear that follows when that comfort doesn't come. It's primal. During those formative years, when parents comfort their children, they're guiding them through all these situations, and critically, they're teaching them how to comfort themselves and how to cope with things. When that isn't there, it can be really hard for the tiny baby. That continual fear of 'if I do not appease this adult, then how will I survive?' (Though not as logically as that.)

It's like my gut-wrenching need to defend my dad even though I know that he is not worth defending, and that he's quite prepared to take care of himself. As a very small child, I learned that fear of no protection, so I tried to build that up - if I protect him, then there might be some protection available for me... As an older child there was a more obvious pay-back - if I protect him from my siblings, then I get favoured. Not loved; he's not capable of that, but favoured, and in a position where that's as good as it gets, then that's what I'd take.

So yeah - fear is overwhelming. It's horrible - I hate it in me. I cycle through this so often...

Foggy: Dad's an arse. Can you believe what he's just done...

Other: Oh shit, yeah! What an arse!

Foggy: Don't say that about my dad! He's doing his best! He means well!

It's literally a panic response. I don't think it's helped that Mum, in her enabler position taught that response too. Still, even now she's been divorced 20 years, her instinct is to defend him over us. Our family has learned that there is only one victim worth helping; him.

Goodto how are you? I'm actually OK. I keep thinking of writing my letters to my dad, and more importantly one to me. I did one to me in therapy, and I think it would be a good idea to do that periodically, so I might start there. I'm currently not in Dad's mind at all, and I'm quite pleased about that, so don't want to focus on him.