Subtle wrong-footing in the context of a long-term relationship

[BranchingOut]

I am coming on to get a few opinions on some things that happen during interactions between my DH and I. These are not major things, but they open a window for me onto a side of him that I have seen before and don't really like. Apologies for the length, as I don't want to be accused of drip-feeding. Some of it is also just getting the feelings out of my system.

We have been together 20+ years (got together v young) and have a DS, coming up to 5. When he was 15 months we had a crisis in our relationship where DH said that he wasn't sure about being married any more and withdrew all affection for approximately five months. He also said some quite unsupportive things during this time, about a situation over which I had very little control. We were reconciled (mostly as I was willing to put it behind us), but there have been mini crises cropping up again every so often. Last year I came to the point of having had enough and went to see a solicitor in the spring, which was really helpful - he does not know this. I also had individual counselling for about six months. Also in the spring, during a row, I told him that I was on very close to saying 'enough is enough', at which point he began crying and said that he didn't want to lose me. We moved house last year, partly as a fresh start, but at the time of buying/selling I told him that we were giving our relationship one last chance. This is also partly to give ourselves the opportunity to have a sibling for DS, although this looks unlikely to happen.

So there are issues..... However on a day-to-day basis we rub along ok, parent together, have a moderate sex life and companionable dialogue. Affection is a bit limited and tends to be initiated by me, but I have more or less accepted that he doesn't really love me anymore - although it hurts to write that. Romantic and sexual love feels like a phase of my life that is over and on many levels (having grown apart from or been bady let down by family members) I do believe that we are all fundamentally alone in the world. Occasionally I hear a pop song with lyrics that spark a wave of longing, yearning to love and be loved....but it feels like another life. I am in my late thirties, still feel attractive and every so often I get 'the look' from a male stranger or acquaintance but...it's not worth it, where would it go? What's the point? So, given that there is just about enough residual affection and companionship between DH and I, a marriage 'of convenience' is something I am willing to accept.

However, I do still chafe against some of the things DH says and does, as they get me down a bit and I was wondering if MNers had any thoughts or suggestions.

His criticism tends to run along the theme of me 'not doing enough' and putting me in the wrong. For example, a couple of weeks ago he wanted us to do jobs A,B,C and D - these are things like getting a new passport, organising an event, some home admin...We were both doing/organising various bits of these jobs ABCD to get them done . But then he got very annoyed when I had not done job E, which was getting a refund on a small item worth 10 and began to criticise me along the lines of 'what are you doing that is so important'. If I say, well I was doing ABCD, he will then tend to mimimise my role in ABCD and come back quite aggressively along the lines of 'Well, I was doing that, do you expect me to do everything?'. He is a high earner and v articulate, so I can never, ever win an argument.

How can I fix these goalposts? I already tend to use email a lot to communicate, so that appointments etc are written down, as he often used to complain that I was trying to tell him appointments/dates at the wrong time of day eg. when he was trying to go to work, had just come home from work, was tired, was relaxing....

(I am not lazy btw, I work 0.6, commute, do most of the childcare and are currently finishing off a postgrad course. I tend to do most of the laundry and cooking, although we do have a cleaner. I think however he tends to view me as fundamentally a bit lazy, untidy and doing things 'wrong' as I do things differently to him.)

The other thing is, every so often I want to let off a tiny bit of steam, but I am never 'allowed' to....I try to be very up-beat, cheerful but sometimes if I describe what i think is an an unreasonable incident, he will often as not say that is fairly reasonable, there shouldn't have been a problem. So for example, he comes home, asks how our day has been and I begin telling him about an incident I had that day. He will say that I am 'moaning', deny that there should have been any kind of problem and repeat back what i have said in an exaggerated and huffy fashion, using a kind of pretend posh voice (I have a v. mild RP accent). The same goes for my occasional 'I'm feeling exhausted/fed up/need a cup of tea' type moments - he will often mimic me back 'Ohh, I am Soooo Taaahhhd/ 'Ahhhmm simply gahhhsping for a cup of teeeee' (falsetto Joanna Lumley type voice) etc. Is there a way to nip this in the bud?

If you are still with me, the other big one is silence. The silent treatment. If we have any kind of minor row he will give me the silent treatment for up to five days or a week, until I crack. Don't know what to do about this. To be honest, that is why I tend to avoid rows.

The thing is, it isn't all bad. We have a lovely DS, are blessed with good health, a great lifestyle, I love my job and I have just about enough time to develop my other interests. I am robust enough to take the tiny bits of rough with the smooth, most of the time. I am not ready to end the relationship, although I might do one day. But I would like any tips to tackle these particular issues in the meantime.

Thanks for reading.

OP, he doesn't sound nice.

Why do you want to stay with a man who doesn't love you? You deserve someone who will love you, and above anything else, respect you. This sounds like he simply doesn't respect you at all. You deserve someone who will appreciate the contribution you make to both the relationship and family life, not someone who tries to minimise your efforts. You deserve someone who will make you a cup of tea, because they love you and want to help you when you're tired, not someone who will make fun of you for it.

I just felt so sad for you when I was reading this - you really do deserve so much better.

As pp has said he sounds horrible. My ex used to do the thing of minimising my part in any house work things I had done. He would flat-out deny that I had done things which I knew I had, but I ended up doubting myself. I now know he was gaslighting me, and it sounds like your h is doing the same. You know your ds will start learning to behave like his father don't you?

Why do you stick around with someone who takes the piss out of you. I am not detecting that he has any affection or respect for you at all. He is an emotional manipulator with the silences and already you are altering your own behaviour to not provoke them. As you are a regular MN user, you will know that is a very slippery path to go down

You ask how to change him ? You cannot. He behaves like this because he wants to, because there is something in it for him. Whether that is to keep you cowed, on the back foot, or simply to make himself feel the Big Man is debateable but the end result is the same....he sees you as lesser than him.

What you do with this realisation (if you accept it, and you will have to sooner or later) is of course up to you

I could not share my precious life with a person like this. Some women will put up with it for the relative security. Don't for one minute think that, between you both, you are modelling good interpersonal communication and relationships for the future emotional health of your Dc though.

It sounds as though he uses you to make himself feel better. If he gets to have a pop at your expense it gives him a little boost to his ego. That's a shitty way to treat someone you profess to love.

Honesty, you sound like a really lovely woman and there is no way you should have to settle for being in a relationship with someone who doesn't love you. You deserve so much more.

I would insist on joint therapy (find a therapist by ringing around and chatting with them and seeing who you connect with and sounds right for you both).

This would be the last thing to try IMHO, after that time to call it a day as he is being unkind and unpleasant to say the least.

Is there a way to nip this in the bud?

Could tell him to fuck off?

To be honest, you are in your 30s. You have oodles of time left to find someone who isn't a wanker.

Joint therapy not recommended where one partner uses manipulative tactics on the other.

Thanks all.

These things are not often - maybe once every few weeks for the 'not doing enough' and the 'mimicing'. But enough to make me feel a bit blue. But on the whole I am very resilient and 'enough' for myself. I don't expect much from DH and wish I could expect less, as old habits die hard.

It is kind to say I deserve better, but on the whole I look pragmatically at the world and think 'what is better?' I have read the dating threads and the stepfamily threads - is that really 'better'? I believe that if I were to leave I would resign myself to being single, with the occasional casual encounter. Lots of times I read threads on here when people say 'I left my DH and now I am with a wonderful man', but then it turns out they have been together all of 18 months and are in the loved-up honeymoon period. Is it really better, in the long run?

I am 39 and clearly must be dead inside.

I am prepared to split up if need be (I do have a small emergency fund) and could just about manage financially (my earning potential is not that great, even full time, in the expensive SE), but what about when I am too old to be easily employable? I look at couples I know who have divorced and the present situation is not pretty, let alone the future...

OP I appreciate the situation is difficult and it's never as simple as "LTB". The gaslighting over household tasks is tricky to deal with, but the mimicking one is easier. It's clear that this is in no way affectionate ribbing. It's just bullying and reveals how much he respect he has for you. When he does it again say flat out "Im sorry, why are you mimicking my voice? Are we back in the playground?" Shame him. Treat it with the disdain it deserves.

But still in the long run, you should probably LTB, as when you're coming up with strategies to minimise the hurt a partner inflicts on you you've already gone down the rabbit hole.

A couple of thought experiments.
What would you do if your husband left - ie, took the decision out of your hands?
How would you feel if you were still where you are, in 10 years' time?

Your husband lives in his own world and views you with a lot of contempt. You can try and snap him out of it, by challenging him every single time he sneers at you or whatever - 'WHAT did you just say? / did you mean something by that? / would you care to explain your meaning?' etc. You would need to do this every time he goes on the attack, even if it's in public or in front of the children, or somewhere you'd rather not bother ( because they soon get canny about when to make their digs).

However, it's tiring and depressing to have to keep doing this, and it won't change his attitude.

Once every few weeks!
Blimey.
No way. That is madness.
Often people say once a year or once every 6 months.
Do you really want to live the rest of your life like this.

You will know already but look up gaslighting and stonewalling to remind yourself that this is abuse and you should NOT be putting up with it.

How do you nip it in the bud?
Simple. Tell him you won't put up with it any longer.
If he does it one more time you want him gone.
And then follow through.

Well I left and am with wonderful man almost four years (christ that long??) now and everything is still great, but appreciate you're not looking for one off stories.

I think your only real hope is to get everything down in one place and lay it out for him and say, look, the big picture of this is that you don't really respect me or like me. I'm finding that pretty hurtful and upsetting. What is your take on this?

He'll either be horrified or he'll blow up (or dismiss everything). Either way you'll have communicated the problem to him and hopefully that gives you a way forward whether that's working with him or it gives you a clear signpost out.

The feeling I'm getting from what you describe is that he seems to have quite an old fashioned view of the "role" of a woman, where you're supposed to be on top of all of the home stuff (projects etc as well as the day to day cleaning and general wifework) and although he probably thinks he's a "modern man" and "helps out" with everything the fact that you're requiring any input from him at all is creating a bit of a jar in his mind because he never really expected to have to do anything hence feeling like you are lazy. (I agree with you, you don't sound lazy!)

Similarly he doesn't seem very able to cope when you express any kind of negativity which says to me that he isn't expecting to give you any emotional support. Again, it's almost like those old marriage manuals which say that a woman should put her make up on and a smile on her face ready for her husband's return, because he doesn't want to hear all of her silly little problems, his wife is his respite from his important man-stress. Over time, it's damaging because every time he dismisses a "little" complaint like feeling tired or stressed, what he's really saying is "God I can't be arsed to deal with your emotions." You aren't going to feel safe and supported to trust him with big things if he isn't supportive of the smaller, everyday things. It is important.

Silent treatment (unless it's literally "I'm feeling so hurt that I can't talk to you because I'm going to cry/scream/explode") is always intended as a punishment. Added up with the other things I'd say it's worrying because it indicates that he sees you as lower than him, somebody he has the right to punish if he sees fit. I'd guess that you would see the relationship as equal, but this to me is him not acting like it is.

Maybe it's just something he's doing unconsciously - he could be totally unaware of it all and if that's the case, great, because pointing it out should highlight how hurtful it is and how insulting it is to be treated as though you are merely an assisting role in his life rather than a person in your own right. But you will have a problem if he's presented with it all and it turns out that he's fine with all that.

If you look at his own family set up and how he relates to his mother you might get a hint as to which of the two it might be.

I think that challenging the mimicking might be a good plan. I suppose I have never explicitly done so, as it riles me up (often at a moment when I am already stressed) so that I am unable to properly formulate a response.

'what is better?'

Someone who doesn't try to dominate, belittle, undermine, criticise you to keep the upper hand in the relationship. Someone who doesn't stay silent for nearly a week in order to 'win'. Someone who actually cares about you and is on your side. He boosts his ego is by subtly subjugating you into second place, do you really want to spend your one life in this?

Please don't tell me that your expectations are so low that you think this, to misquote Gillette, is the best a man can be.

At 39 you've got every chance of finding a decent man.

xposts - yy to pps.

Although I don't really care whether he's aware of it or not. He's not likely to change a fundamental part of his character and outlook, so challenging it is a waste of time.

Wait a few years and your dc's will be mimicking you. Soemthign to look forward to, eh ?

Seriously, you never thought to challenge it before ?

This is a man who considers women subhuman. That's what the problem is. Counselling won't fix it, asserting yourself won't fix it, crying and getting angry won't fix it. To him, you are a creature somewhere between sentient domestic appliance and household pet - he is prepared to make sure you are fed and sheltered and treated with a certain amount of affection, but you have to know your place and if you display anger or don't obey you have to be punished. Because your owner is your master and you need to accept this gracefully.

Or you could leave him. It's OKto do that.

I'm sorry you are dealing with this. It's nasty behaviour and happening "every few weeks" actually sounds depressingly frequent to me. I understand what you're saying about doubts about what else is out there, but maybe being single and not having to live with someone who treats you with so much disdain on a regular basis would be an improvement even if you didn't find another partner!

Anyway--I know you're asking about how to manage it now, rather than about splitting up. I agree with the laughing and shaming. Treat his behaviour with the loud, open contempt it deserves. However, it will probably just turn into more "I can never win an argument" situations as he will feel very threatened by that and go on the (verbal) attack rather than shamefacedly accepting it. So be prepared for that. :-(

It is not that I don't challenge things - I am quite tough on many levels. It is more that, when he mimics, I am already tired/exasperated/stressed so will say something non-specific like 'Hey, stop it' or I will try to justify what my issue is.

Or he will say two things at once (a mimicking response plus a tangential criticism) so bamboozles me that way. The other aspect of this is that he actually can be a really accurate mimic, can do all sorts of people, so it is part of his way of telling funny anecdotes etc. So some of the time he gets quite a lot of kudos from being a good mimic.

It's sad that what you're getting from this thread is "I think that challenging the mimicking might be a good plan."

You are with a man who does not love you. Whether you challenge him on the mimicry or not, whether he accepts to cut it out or not, you will still be living with and married to a man who does not love you. You are worth more than that, and I hope that you may believe someday soon that being on your own is better than this indignity.

AnyFucker - I do take note of what you say about influencing children and that is the main thing that gives me pause for thought.

BertieBotts - Over time, it's damaging because every time he dismisses a "little" complaint like feeling tired or stressed, what he's really saying is "God I can't be arsed to deal with your emotions." You aren't going to feel safe and supported to trust him with big things if he isn't supportive of the smaller, everyday things. It is important.

Yes, that sounds about right. He gets bored or distracted v quickly when I try to tell him anecdotes about what is going on for me.

you want him gone - he would never go in a million years. A big theme of his has been resenting my unequal contribution to our finances. We would have to put the house on the market and separate when it sold.

I've been with my husband for 18 years and her is a wonderful man. You're still young and can certainly do better that this awful man.

We would have to put the house on the market and separate when it sold.

That sounds like a good plan to me.

He's not really sounding much better as time goes on. It sounds like his expectations of you are supremely high. All (or most) housework/childcare, equal or higher share in household/family project work (your ABCDE example), presumably wifework like family birthdays, school events, doctors' appointments etc as well, AND he's upset that you aren't bringing in as much money as him.

How are you supposed to do all of those things? And wouldn't he feel like a spare part if you did suddenly do everything around the house and earn more than him to boot?

Goats I wonder if I am wierdly out of step with ideas of what a relationship should be as I think I have more or less accepted that he does not love me in a passionate way. He did once. He doesn't any more.

All I want is companionship, a bit of affection, co-parenting, politeness and a sex life.

Are these the crumbs from the table of life? The great banquet of love, marriage and relationships that we enter into in our teens and only push our chairs away from when we die. Or are they actually worth something in their own right?