how do you decide whether to stay in a relationship? how do you balance the good bits and the bad bits?

[throwingpebbles]

If its not abusive, and there's no infidelity, how do you decide how much to put up with? Especially when financially its a stretch to run one household, let alone two.

I'm really struggling with severe post natal depression, am suicidal at times. On reflecting on what is triggering my lowest moments I have realised some of it is to do with dh behaviour. I am seeing a counsellor soon but in the meantime would welcome help to make sense of everything

We have 2 dc now and an expensive mortgage (house not flashy at all, ex council house but in the south east). If we split I don't know how on earth we could run two households, I only earn a few hundred pounds after childcare (and that's with 'd'h covering a day a week and me doing compressed hours). So, to split would be drastic, but I know the relationship at present is making me very unhappy. We can rub along fine a lot of the time, he is fairly good at doing his share of house work and we both adore our children, but there are two big issues...

We are very different people. This never felt like an issue when we were younger, but now, I guess as the children tie me more to the home etc, it feels more stark. He has a couple of Ds at A level and does a very practical job, he has an amazing practical intelligence (he is really talented at what he does) but no interest in current affairs/literature etc. I have a string of first class degrees/post grad quals. I really struggle with how different we are, I miss talking to people like me, I have given up reading etc and just feel like I am not really 'me' anymore, as I think I sort of dumbed down to be with him. I feel terrible saying this. I don't see myself as better, I think his talent for what he does is amazing, but I am desperate for conversation on my level sometimes.

Secondly, he has a very selfish side and a massive temper. I find myself agreeing to things all the time because I can't cope with his tempers/sulking. If I go out to see friends he is in a vile mood when I get back and sulks about the baby having cried etc. When I stayed in hospital with our severely ill son he would moan on and on about how tired he was, yet I was up most of the night with my son who was terrified/ needing tests doing, whilst dh got a full nights sleep. I became suicidal and hallucinating with exhaustion, and dh knew and yet still went away for a weekend with friends. When I had hyperemesis gravidarum dh yelled and swore at me for not getting up to help with ds, he never looked after me or brought me a drink other than begrudgingly, if I begged him. These are just examples, he has made me feel so terrible so many times. Yet even when he made a massive, potentially career ending, error of judgement, I was supportive.

I feel really unhappy at the thought of staying with him. But equally it feels incredibly selfish to tear our family apart and make life so financially tough for all of us. We would have to leave our home and that feels so selfish

Sorry, that's a bit rambly. There's lots of times when we rub along fine, there's no sex/intimacy but we chat about day to day things/the children and there's no drama for days on end. And that's what makes me weaken any resolve to end things. That maybe I should ignore the crap bits because there are lots of ok bits

Can you go to a counsellor to help you figure out how much of your PND is caused by hormones/sleep-deprivation/worry about your little one, etc. and how much is caused by a poor relationship? It occurs to me that you may need to have the PND treated and be feeling strong before you can make a clear choice and move on if needed.

What you describe of your pregnancy and child's hospitalization, etc. and his treatment of you then, would have me thinking he's a poor partner for you. But you do need to be pretty strong to make the big changes of a divorce and all that entails.

Also - do you have supportive/helpful family nearby? That might make a huge difference for you as well.

Good luck! I've actually been where you are, and it's not easy at all.

No family nearby . I moved for dh. Yet he still throws stinking tantrums about visiting/spending christmas with my family.
I am hopefully seeing a private counsellor soon, nhs have been rubbish.

I am horrificly sleep deprived and possible also have ptsd from a difficult birth (a complicated story but it included dh not taking my side when I said gas and air not working :( )

However, dh and I nearly split before I found out I was pregnant with dc2 (because of things like him throwing a tantrum when we were late leaving my parents on xmas day, because ds's routine went awry and he needed feeding). We then split over how he treated me with hyperemesis, he was very remorseful and eventually I let him back (albeit mainly because I hated seeing ds so sad), he was on good behaviour for a bit but then the selfishness / tantrums are creeping back in. I am beyond hurt at the moment that he could see me so suicidal and exhausted from constant childcare (2 children with health problems and no family close) and still swan off for a weekend with friends

I know I need counselling to work all this through but in the meantime I am trying to reflect as much as possible so I can not rush into any decision

whit what did you decide to do? How did you finally reach the decision?

I have a good career but housing and childcare costs round here mean we would all have an awful quality of life if we split. It makes a decision that I think would otherwise be clear feel very self indulgent, particularly as, flashpoints aside, we rub along ok I guess

Your main concern about splitting up seems to be financial. Would that be alleviated if you moved back to the area you come from/where your family are?
What are you hoping to achieve from the counseling? Strategies to tolerate your relationship? Strength to leave?
Your DH doesn't sound very nice, quite similar to mine in some ways but we keep rubbing along like you.

Dh can only earn a decent living where we are now, his career is v location specific. So moving isn't really an option, even if we split I couldn't drag the children away from him. He is their dad still and they have fun with him.
Financially I think life would be very grim if we split, its hardly extravagant now (already at the uk holiday with family, hand me downs etc stage thanks to horrible sized mortgage for a 3 bed ex council house).

I think from the counselling I am hoping to unpick all the different things making me unhappy, the exhaustion, the ptsd, the relationship and try and get some clarity/some strategies to move forward. I guess deep down I suspect I am looking for 'permission' to leave dh, despite the impact it would have on the children, and despite the fact we rub along fine a lot of the time.

The second reason you describe is vile, selfish and controlling behaviour. None of it acceptable in a relationship. Any good bits are definitely outweighed by what you describe here.

It seems to me like you have 2 practical issues to solve right now, to help you see your way more clearly: continuing to get your PND treated, and getting legal and financial advice on where you stand if you split. Knowledge is power: it will feel less stressful if you know what to expect. There are online calculators for what benefits you would be entitled to, and family lawyers who give a free 30 minute first consultation.

Use them. Find out where you stand.

I'm sorry you're feeling so low, and I hope you are getting good treatment. I truly think that getting constantly hurt by a selfish man's selfishness is certainly not improving matters.

You are already putting up with way too much. Your husband is aggressive to you and has treated you with jaw dropping selfishness.

Someone with a massive temper, with whom you constantly agree just to protect yourself from it, IS abusive. Someone who swears at you when you're ill, and refuses to help you, or bring you a drink (which is desperately important if you have HG) - he IS abusive.

Your bar for what is acceptable is way too low.

Is there anyone you trust that you can talk to in real life?

I know what you mean, I do. He has moments of staggering awfulness and if it wasn't for the children I would be off like a shot. But these are incidents that punctuate an otherwise mundane existence, and when its all mundane its hard to imagine tearing everything apart just for my benefit

I am awaiting some hopefully good treatment, trying to get it sorted at the moment

I remember, when I had hyperemesis, crying when my little boy tucked me up and sang lullabies to me, because he certainly hadn't learnt that kindness from dh

Sorry for being late to answer... had to go out for a bit.

I made my decision through counseling, and ADs that helped me feel strong enough to handle life without him and his income. Had a really great older woman counsellor who challenged my thinking many times, not just someone who listened.

You're getting some great answers from others here as well.... and your little boy sounds like he's learned so much from you!! You're obviously a great mom. Give yourself some credit here.

Can the MW help you go over the birth scene again, to take some of the hurt out of that?

Take care of yourself, too; find something to enjoy every day. Esp. that son of yours!! I'm very impressed....

Thanks whits yes my children are wonderful they give me so much happiness even in these bad times

I am hoping when I finally get to see someone they will help me explore all this, the nhs have been dreadful I have been begging for help since they hyperemesis incident triggered ante natal depression

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-survivors-handbook.asp?section=000100010008000100310004

This is a questionnaire to see if you are suffering from domestic abuse. Number one is 'has your husband/partner tried to keep you from seeing friends and family?' You are being abused, OP, he had tantrums if you see your family and mega paddies if you go out to see a friend- why? Because they may talk to you about what on earth you are throwing your life away on this man? Add in some fear, some terrible behaviour, and you are now altering your behaviour so these things don't happen (also another one on the list).

I could make lots of suggestions regarding PND or perhaps restarting your career so you can use all those qualifications, however the biggest thing you need to face is to consider leaving this very unpleasant man who is abusing you.

Do you have RL support? Could you move back to friends/family?

Your life is only mundane as you have learned not to provoke him. What would happen if you announced that you were putting the children in childcare and returning to a great job using your qualifications? What would happen if you announced you were going to your family for the weekend or out with some friends? Would he support you, enable you, help you or would he go ballistic, knowing that next time you are less likely to ask.

No wonder you feel so low. I do think though, that in the middle of all this PND and exhaustion and stress, there is a very clever amazing woman in there just waiting to get out and live her life. You haven't lost you, you are still there, you are just biding your time til you get your moment in the sun again (and it will happen). Seek rl support, check out the Women's Aid website get a counsellor and make some plans.

pebbles, your second para/reason has some very big red flags for emotional abuse...

please google it, check the WA website and buy the book Emotional Abuse How to recognise it...(or something) by Patricia Evans. I think your husband's behaviour, and your feelings, will come screaming out at you from that book.

It's not you, it may not even be PND....my money is on EA - and you are slowly putting the pieces of the jigsaw together for yourself.

Here's just some of what caught my eye in your original post.

You walk on eggshells around him(a classic)
You are (becoming) isolated from family and friends (he sulks when you go out with friends, he had a tantrum when you were late leaving family)
His temper, his sulking (classic controlling)
Yelling and swearing at you.
Followed by normal life and rubbing along where you wonder "was it really that bad" so you start minimising the abuse. (The classic cycle of abuse)

OP I could have written your post. I just had DD2 and struggling with a relationship for the exact same two reasons. The temper thing is irritating and not what I want for my DCs but I find our incompatability heartbreaking. There is no 'meeting of the minds', shared interests or vision. We rarely converse about anything beyond practical things and I am not interested in his thoughts or in him as a person.

For this reason I have decided to end things. I will just get more depressed the longer I stay and the more I realize how much I am giving up. I may not meet my 'soulmate' but I would like intimacy and a connection. And maybe sex (none since baby conceived!)

That's what I've decided but I hope you can work out what's best for you. Depression can blur things a bit so I would look at medication and counselling to help it lessen before you make your final decision.

Good luck.

I do work in my career thenapoleon its just not massively lucrative but it does give me immense satisfaction, but I would prefer not to go full time as I would barely see my babies (I do 30 hour weeks).

He is ok some of the time, and I have become more assertive. I just told him I was off to see a friend yesterday and he was fine about it.

I don't think he deliberately tries to isolate me from my family, more that his selfishness means he only thinks about what he wants to do

Sorry, I misunderstood, you said about giving up reading and that you missed having people to talk with and so on so I assumed you weren't working in your field at present. If you are working, then cling on to that for sure, to keep you grounded in who you are and what your capabilities are.

In terms of your lifestyle, I don't think it would be any more 'grim' than it currently is, you might end up living in a ex-council house, having holidays in the Uk etc but using child tax credits/housing benefits to supplement your income, I am not that sure it would be a very different life at all (this doesn't sound grim to me, just pretty standard).

I'm sure he is ok some of the time otherwise you would presumably leave him tomorrow. But he is aggressive, shouts, has tantrums on family occasions, you agree with him for a quiet life, and so on. This is definitely emotional abuse, it doesn't mean that every single time he does this, just that when stressed, angry or because he can, he does. If you read your paragraph starting 'Secondly...' it is pretty sobering reading. The fact he was nice yesterday doesn't really negate that.

Oh william I am sorry to hear that, we were on same baby bus/ fb group (have namechanged! Was tired) (Dropped out of fb group as was feeling to fragile to cope with all the fallings out!). Hope your beautiful dc are doing ok, feel free to pm me

I am on 20mg citalopram and awaiting private counselling, will it explore this kind of issue. And won't I just be a different kind of miserable if I can't even afford to rent somewhere?

throwing why won't you be able to afford the rent, you won't be homeless. I would check out your entitlements, you may find that as a separate single mum who works 30 hours a week but has a low income, there is quite a lot of help available, probably equivalent to what you have now (but you won't necessarily keep the large mortgage).

www.gov.uk/benefits-calculators
www.entitledto.co.uk/benefits-calculator/startcalc.aspx

I think you sound very ground down and unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel so are convincing yourself it is not that bad. It may not be this week, but he's been so awful over time I don't know I could forgive it really, plus I think the chances he's a different person and not going to do it again at some time point are fairly minimal.

thenapoleon I will investigate, but I know we couldn't afford to stay in this house and I would feel so selfish about that

You are right though, I too suspect his behaviour will reoccur. He seems at his worst when I /a child am ill/vulnerable and that worries me for the future. And yes, I have not yet succeeded in really forgiving/forgetting past incidents, so they are festering away in the background really

So I have been thinking about this a lot tonight (baby wakes a lot!) And I do still struggle to label his behaviour as 'abusive' as opposed to just selfish. but I have had to admit to myself that this is probably about the third time I have posted in relationships over the last couple of years, under different user names and about different instances, and each time people have tried to tell me his behaviour is abusive

Pebbles. That's because it is abusive.

Houses can be sold. But when someone is abusive it creates all sorts of unexpected ripple effects, not least of which is your kids witnessing this as a normal way of life. Which means that the dynamic is handed down to the next generation. Which is good enough reason in itself to end this relationship.

"if it wasn't for the children I would be off like a shot"

And that's your answer right there. Do you want to show your children that this actually loveless marriage is their "normal", that this is how adults behave towards each other in a relationship?.

Please do not stay within this (and I would also state his behaviours towards you are emotionally abusive) for the supposed sake of your children because they really won't thank you for doing so and could well ask of you why you put him before them. Your home situation is really bad primarily because of your DH.

Also you cannot burden a child with a choice that you made.

I hope you get to see a decent counsellor soon but I also think that much of your depressive state is actually down to your DH and his behaviours towards you over the past number of years.

I am starting to realise that I think atilla but it is a big thing to get my head around. Especially when things are calm(ish) at the moment

I was writing a list of things to discuss when I see counsellor and slowly realised that whilst there are ptsd issues and historic issues in my life, it is actually the relationship that's the biggest issue

Will this be something counsellors will help me get my head round? Do they tell you if they think behaviour is abusive? I have no idea what to expect from it

Many abusive men can do nice/nasty very well but it is all part of their abuse cycle which is a continuous one. Do you think that things are calmish at present simply because you have completely parked your feelings and have modified your own behaviours to suit your DH?.

A decent counsellor will encourage you to talk openly and freely within a safe controlled environment. They will not usually give advice but is there to support you and respect your views. This process may make you feel worse initially before you hopefully start to feel better and see things more clearly.

I think things are calmish at present because dh is happy if that makes sense.

He's had a good couple of weeks with work. He did throw a big tantrum but it was directed at his boss instead of me. (I think his boss and his parents would be the people who wouldn't be suprised if I left due to dh temper)