How would/did you handle this betrayal?

[avrilinca]

Has anyone had a D day where their H has sat them down and confessed to an affair (in the past) but neither apologised nor said they want to leave? He says he can't apologise or ask for forgiveness because he doesn't regret it. He also says he doesn't want to be with the OW now but he does want to be in touch with her. I can't find anything anywhere on the internet that has a similar precedent - seems to be either apologetic (cathartic or pre-emptive) confessions or unplanned discoveries. It seems just unbelievably cruel and crazy-making to me.

Yes, the articulate thing is an issue. I do fall for pretty words. But dignity is better than pretty words. I need to print out this thread. I need to get another therapist. I think the commitment phobe thing is probably an issue, I am a people pleaser (I know, apart from the people to whom I am colluding in causing immense pain) and even though XH was an EA twunt I hated hurting him by leaving him and still feel guilty (working on that, too). So maybe I need to work on emotional independence as I've got the practical independence thing down - I love my life with my kids and can't imagine anyone joining in with that, but I don't have a family support network and my friends are all deep in the baby phase.

You definitely have the wrong person, AF! I haven't posted (though I've been lurking) since I was posting about my marriage several years ago. Lots of my friends know about the situation but I need a new perspective - they're either too concessionary or too prurient and I knew I needed a metaphorical slap.

You're just using each other to get an occasional blast of drama and romance. If you can live with that, that's who you are.

Are you the poster who repeatedly starts threads just so you can talk about your angst, and how difficult it all is, and how wonderful he is really because you actually have fuck-all of any of it in reality ? You pissed people off massively the last several time you did that

True or not, you need to let this man go and get on with your life.

Take care.

My DS's Dad was abusive to me way before I met my stbxh. I never would have hurt another woman though.

Re-read your posts, it sounds like you're making excuses for your behaviour and justifying it like a lot of cheaters do. I hate being such an expert on this subject

It's also not fair on the other men you are dating. If you and they are single then it's fine to date a few as long as you are honest about that. What isn't right is sitting across from some poor guy who has ironed his shirt for his date and have you thinking about some cheating a.hole.

Can you be on your own?

if you are not she, you sound exactly like her

and that is not a good thing, believe me

I'm not going to talk about how wonderful he is because I'm going to assume I'm in the fog/blinded here. There's no point trying to get you to see his point of view because that's the one I get from him. Obviously I don't thoroughly and constantly believe he's a total cock or I wouldn't be involved. It's the other point of view I need to have my eyes pointed towards. I know I need to let him go. And I need to make a conscious decision to do that before I start engaging anyone else's feelings. Sometimes (and I don't expect any sympathy for this) it feels like a paradox - I can't move on without something to move on to, and I can't move on to something because I'm not emotionally available. It's the first part of that I have to deconstruct and address, isn't it? Learn to be properly on my own. It's not as if his 'love' has ever been a genuine ballast or boost to me, anyway.

It seems like you are posting here looking for some magic formula to end things.

There is no such formula. You know what to do. Delete his number, change yours. Don't answer any attempts at communication. That's it. This angst ridden chest beating all rings a bit hollow to be honest.

And he's lying to you btw. He hasn't told her anything of the sort.

x-posts handful. I will read back and see where I'm being an apologist. It's not my intention and those are exactly the tendencies I want to hunt out in myself. The 'it wasn't me it was my fingers'? bit. I do see that. Some people struggle to control their smoking and eating and drinking and I try to have sympathy with that because I have never walked in their shoes.

Lay I don't think I am. I know what I have to do, I'm just trying to find ways to help me commit to doing it. I do find it difficult, obviously. I know this will exasperate some people. I guess these are the 'eat less and exercise more'/'just don't buy any wine' brigade, though I'd be happy to be disabused if others think this is an erroneous parallel.

No, you're right, it's not just that simple.
You have to deal with the "need" to call him, see him, whatever just as you would with any other "need" that is bad for you.

Whenever the urge strikes, write him a letter (AFTER you've deleted his number!). Write it in free-flow - don't worry about spelling, punctuation, capitals, anything like that - just let the thoughts flow out of your head and onto the paper. You might be surprised the turn that these thoughts take! And then burn the paper (or keep it for the next time you feel like calling him and have a re-read - it might shock you!)

You can do this, you know. You got out of an EA marriage - you can get out of this too. And then go and do the Freedom programme or something similar to get you out of this mindset!

Think about what you are getting from a few texts, OP. It's not just about willpower it's about you choosing to invest in someone offering you very little. You have to see that the way you describe your set-up it seems like you don't WANT a full on relationship. You describe the other guy you were seeing as 'needy'. Really? Or did he just have needs you didn't want to fulfill? You say love has never been a ballast to you? Well, why do you keep getting into these relationships do you think ? Yes, there's one way of seeing this which is you're getting scraps from an infidelities shit (which you are), but you are also getting scraps of attention and romance and drama with no real world consequence or meaning. you're sort of living a half life. You're hanging off another woman's man and not doing what's actually difficult and brave, engaging properly with a human being in a full, committed way.

You are the one that comes across as needy (getting in touch with him begging for attention from a man who has long ago finished with you) but also unable to actually invest properly. You are toying and keeping yourself sort of safe, weirdly. It's quite controlling.

That's hugely insightful, Blood - thank you. I meant his (MM's) 'love' in particular as a ballast but I can see that after XH (who was a classic 'rip it out from under you' type) I'm terrified of allowing myself to think anyone loves me in case it just goes away. I absolutely know I'm the needy one with the MM, and I also see that in a normal reading the guy last year was just someone who wasn't afraid to commit (although objectively he was pretty full-on). I did spend the date with poor ironed-shirt guy saying I wasn't sure I wanted a relationship. But if I don't, then I need to get the fuck out of someone else's marriage, don't I?

I like the letter idea. I can't forget his number, I've deleted it a million times but I'm a weird number-memory person. I have asked him to change it (guess what, he didn't, even though he hardly uses his phone, he's a pen and paper kind of guy).

I appreciate your patience and wisdom so much. I can see how annoying and indulgent this must be to read. I am working at my hobbies (one of which is intricately linked to him but I am getting over that), loving sorting my house out and hanging with my kids in it, getting involved with a local charity, working hard at work. I think I am just lonely and I miss having any default person to call/talk to about things that happen in my life. To an extent I got over that with XH because he wasn't a listener and he consistently undermined my feelings to the extent (at the end) I had almost no idea what they were. Still, I miss having family and my closest people (who aren't completely tied up in their own stuff) tend to be quite selfish and narcissistic too.

Thumbwitch, I loved your post, thank you for understanding. Perhaps the most successful method I've had of stopping myself is 'what do you really hope to achieve from this?'. I need to keep that one at the top of the pile. And you're right, it MUST be easier than leaving the immensely controlling father of my children, and I did that. I've tried the elastic band, I've tried mantras - maybe I just need to get back on the wagon better every time. Or maybe (on the other hand) I need to go down the path of imagining what it would really be like, being involved in a legitimate, committed way with a selfish, indecisive, sport-obsessed, entitled man with a proven capacity to lie over a sustained period to his wife and children.

Of course he won't change his number. And when you ask him things like that he it just cements how adoring you are of him in his eyes, it's a huge ego boost (wow, she's so obsessed with me she can't even control herself and is asking me to control her behavior.) All these little games keep an affair in the game, he gets an ego boost out of it, you get to tell yourself you 'tried' but you just love him too much.

Look you know you have to get the fuck out of someone else's marriage but what I'm saying is that maybe you're in it BECAUSE you don't want a full on relationship. You want an affair, which is not a real relationship, not even close.

Maybe you're terrified of allowing yourself to think anyone loves you, I don't know. but that's not what jumps out. But I do know that you are consistently finding yourself in relationships with men who treat women badly and offer something then take it away, and rejecting men who make effort and let it be known they are brave enough to step up for actual commitment. The pattern here is you.

When you do find a default person can you try getting one that isn't already in another relationship? You have no idea of the hurt you are inflicting onto other women and possibly children and that is just not fair. Cheers.

It makes sense those close to you are selfish and narcissistic, as is this man, clearly. I would argue that you are actually someone who fears intimacy rather than seeks it and an affair is a great way of maintaining distance whilst getting the romance and attention you crave. The same is true of friendships with people who are self-interested. You get long-term friendships but very little is demanded of you. The exchange is that you cannot demand very much of anyone else either. Which is exactly what you are doing with OM.

But I don't want an affair! it's totally fucking up other people's lives and it's also been pretty horrible for me. Since it's definitely not a conscious desire, I am trying to figure out what I get from it, subconsciously. Drama? Rejection? Abandonment? Are these my drugs? It's not sex or validation, other than in memory. As I haven't hidden in my posts, I am the pathetic one in it now.

FBR - point taken.

Another great insight, Blood (are you a professional psychologist/counsellor, btw?). I feel like my friendships are very one-sided and I give a great deal, but maybe that's an illusion. Worth exploring. I am shit at asserting myself and will have periodic points where I muster up the courage/resentment and tell people that my feelings are hurt but then I tend to back down when I see the consequences. OM, oddly, has been the exception to this rule because of the weird affair dynamic where you're both always trying to torpedo the fucking thing - so I've never watched what I said or been self-serving or played any games (that I've noticed... shit, I've probably put loads of counter-examples in the thread already. This is a good cold shower on my illusions of self-awareness, anyway). I suppose I would naturally resist this reading because it makes me much more of a selfish arsehole to have a relationship with him because he's married, whether consciously or not.

MM, sorry - he was never OM.

This is what I'm trying to get you to see. By all means, take the role of victim if it allows you to get angry enough to stop contacting him. But I don't think it will.

I think you will act when you see yourself as self-serving in this dynamic. You're aware as you're writing the above I hope that the idea of 'not playing any games' whilst having an affair of any kind is laughable. The whole affair is a game. As is the contact you have now. The cycles, the recrimination, the drama, the torpedo-ing and if you weren't getting anything out of it, why would you keep playing?

Beware the person who says they give a lot to everyone and feels let down by everyone. Do you think it's more likely that everyone is always mistreating you, using you and taking all the time or that there is some dynamic going on that you are playing out each time. Which is statistically more likely? When you return again and again to the OM, asking to be rejected and for the game to start up again, who is responsible for that? Who is the victim there? Why would you be friends with people where you give so much but they give little? Why would you be in a one-sided relationship unless, on some level, you fear a two-sided relationship? At least in a one-sided relationship you are the only one in control of it, because you provide its basis. Why are you asking so little of your friendships? Why are you asking so little of this man? What pattern are you repeating?

Those are all brilliant questions. (If you are a professional and you have any time, could you PM me? You're far more (productively) interrogative than any of the therapists I've had.) I will think about all of this but not answer on here as it feels a bit public. I think I'm afraid of being wrong, of being the bad guy, and in a screwed-up sense I think that's what I might subconsciously have been trying to confront when I got into a situation in which I unequivocally was/am the bad guy. I hope I'm open to self-examination but maybe I do even that in a measured and moderated/synthetic way.

I'm really sorry for the way I framed this thread.

Maybe I just want attention without responsibility. That's very childish/immature, isn't it?

Yes. Especially when it fucks other people's lives up just because you can't be a responsible person. Not your problem though is it?