Daughter's boyfriend

[cyclerunmum]

Hi, I'm a long time lurker, but not a poster, but I need some more perspective on a problem I have please!

My DD1 is 21, just graduated (with a first) and heading towards further post grad study. She is very bright, beautiful, popular and independent, and she is the light of my life.

She has a 29 year old boyfriend who she's been with for 4 years now, coming home every fortnight from uni to see him. She spent last two summers (3 to 4 months) working away in the states just to give you an idea how much time they've spent together.

He is a local man from a very rural traditional family, and is known locally as a good guy, likes a drink/rugby etc but, and here is my problem finally, he doesn't treat my DD very well. I have ignored things as much as I can over the years, but he is not going to change and makes my DD unhappy (but she won't admit it). They never do anything together as a couple, always group activities, even holidays etc. He prioritises everything in his life ahead of DD and shows no interest in her life (I have witnessed this numerous times).

Just to give you an example or two, he promised to take her away for her 21st but it never materialised, so she never got a present.

He will not come to DD's graduation ceremony, because it will be boring. He can't see how important it is to her and us, and she has been in tears over this with him.

She bought him an expensive wallet for his birthday. When he opened it, because it didn't have the right pocket inside he threw it on the table and said he didn't want it.

I have had relative strangers from my village tell me how badly he treats her and they wouldn't want their daughter in a relationship like this.... at a social event, in front of many others and coming from a position of having close knowledge of their relationship.

Last weekend I pointed out to him that he was ignoring my DD (we were all our at an event, and he literally hadn't spoken to her all night) so of course now my DD is not speaking to me for interfering. I know I shouldn't have done, but I am biting my tongue constantly watching her being let down and it is so hard. She insists she is happy with him defends him to the end.

Sorry for the huge post, but how would you deal with it? My family and friends all see it too, but like me can't get through to her. I'm so upset that this will drive us apart, all I want is for her to be loved and treated well.

I would leave this well alone. She will eventually realise what he is like but she had to come to that realisation herself. Don't force the subject or your disapproval could well fuel her determination to stay.

Eventually could be decades later, it's already been four years. You are her Mum, you are the one person she can fall out with and know unconditional love will always be there. But do try and distance from the advice being personal, talk about what abusive men are like etc, not this man in particular.

Thank you for your kind replies, I will do some reading up too.

SGB it's funny you should mention being polite about him, when she got her degree results recently he promised to take her out for lunch to celebrate on the day. When it came to it he was too busy at work to do it and let her down at the last minute, so I took her out instead, not saying anything negative about him.... very hard.

I was in your daughter's position a few years back, quite similar but obviously not identical. The best thing I can advise is to wait. As time passes, your daughter will experience more of life and realise there is more for her out there than this guy. It took me four years to realise it - I spent 6 months building up the courage to end it. My lovely mum did everything she could to try to make me see how awful the situation was but ultimately it had to come from me. Sit tight, she sounds like a clever girl, but it could be a month, a year, or more until something clicks in her head.

My DDs are 20 and 23.

I agree that you do have to be very careful what you say, but with Dd2 I have sat her down and had a long chat about the way she was being treated by a controlling arse. I actually think its a good thing to let them know that you aren't happy but to add that you respect their decision to go out with who they like and that you will always be there for them.

When it came to it he was too busy at work to do it and let her down at the last minute, so I took her out instead

I actually think its a good thing to let them know that you aren't happy

With mine, I know that they know these things for themselves. Knowing them and admitting it to themself or feeling ready to do something about it, are two different things.

How many times do we read posts on MN, written by intelligent women, but doubting their own thought processes and asking if they're BU?

I also found that despite being clever and outwardly confident women who seemed to have the world at their feet, there were sometimes self esteem issues that they managed to hide and alternatively sometimes an element of thinking they could somehow change or 'fix' the unsuitable partner.

It's the old adage isn't it, that you have to learn the hard way

I think the trouble is that every week you say nothing is another week that she thinks you think it's OK and she normalises it. Along with the normalising behaviour comes adaptive behaviours, compensating behaviours and co-dependent behaviours. Over time these behaviours become normal to her and to everyone else around her and could result in further problems.

If you say nothing she will probably feel that nobody else is concerned about what she's going through, boyfriend is right, I'm making a fuss over nothing, so might as well keep it the same. No guidance and no disapproval will simply be read by her that his behaviour's fine and there's nothing to worry about.

In the end you know her best of all. I'm glad you are going to read the literature, it will really help when you understand what you are dealing with and perhaps give you more clues as to how to tackle it.

I have been gently mentioning things for months that to me seem unacceptable which she nods at, but it never changes.

Since speaking to him though, she is now so unhappy with me she isn't speaking to me, so I have to be careful as I will push her away if I tackle it too head on.

The last thing I want it for her to cut contact all together, that's what I am afraid will happen, and I am sure if I did really tell her what I think she wouldn't speak to me again!

That's what abusive men do, it's the same process that cults use to separate people from their loved ones and gain control.

Somehow she needs to see that this is part of the controlling indoctrination/grooming process, that him getting her to cut you out is deliberate as he sees you as a threat to his ability to keep control of her. He won't share her.

Fortunately there is a lot of information written up about people like this and it will only take a moment for her to read it. (check out narcissistic personality disorder) Just having that understanding will probably be enough to empower her.

The thing to remember is that he is probably not doing this deliberately or even maliciously, it's the only way he can function in a relationship. He's programmed to behave this way toward his partner. I think that's why a lot of women try to defend their partners because despite their abusive behaviour they really actually love them and mean well - sadly their love is expressed in dangerous and damaging ways. Their meaning well is owning the person and controlling her.

Anyway, so it's kind of pointless to say 'LTB', he's an arse, twunt, all those things we hear on here so often because he's not a bastard, or any of those things. He's just a man with a hugely confused idea of human relationships but one that is damaging to others. So don't accuse him of anything, don't put him down, if anything you could show him some kind of pity - 'yes, he doesn't like to let you go out on his own does he, it makes him worry that you will leave him' - that kind of thing.

Making it clear in her mind that he can't help his behaviour might actually help as she won't think she can change him, or that it's a temporary blip, or that it's because she did x y or z.

But do take advice from others, there are so many on here who know what they're talking about and have been there done that and got the t-shirt.

I was in a relationship for a year and a half with a bloke neither of my parents liked.

It was controlling, jealous, patronising, somewhat violent, sexually aggressive and possessive. My parents stated like you if he done something specific that was upsetting to them, but didn't outright tell me they disliked him.

In a way I wish they did, so I could've escaped from his behaviour sooner but I honestly don't know if I would've listened - I was quite damaged by him and previously had been assaulted by him and almost groomed for the 2 and a half years before I got with him so it's hard to know.

But not giving up on someone who is in that situation is key. I felt hurt by some friends who semi gave up on me.

I was also hurt when people saw him being nasty to me and didn't say anything. I'm on about friends here other than family as he wouldn't have dared do anything in front of my family.

I hope she learns soon herself that he is a major pillock.

OP, you refer to this man as your daughter's boyfriend, and say she's been with him for four years.

But does the man in question regard himself as her boyfriend? In his mind, is she his girlfriend? Does he regard them as being in a "relationship"?

On the evidence available, it seems to me that the answer to those questions is "no", and always has been.

My DD was in a similiar situation. She was 17 when she met him, he was 5 years older. He was verbally abusive, mean spirited and financially abusive. A complete arsehole.
Anyway, she has now left him (16 years and two DCs later) and I'm there picking up the pieces, but it is lovely to see her happy again.

Don't alienate your DD.
It will be harder for her to admit she was wrong and finish the relationship if you pressurise her.

I think if it took 16 years for your daughter to leave this man it might be that intervention could have been exactly what was required. Sorry but I the approach to not risk speaking out is simply wrong and part and parcel of how men control women. It's a hangover from the days when women really couldn't leave a relationship safely, didn't understand abusive men and convinced themselves that there is an element of choice in the victim staying. We used to say "some women like that kind of relationship".

If you own mother doesn't really say anything or put things in perspective then why would you question the relationship at all.

I think by saying nothing you are playing into the abusers hands and I think it's the way women have traditionally approached these scenarios and it suits the patriarchy very well thank you. Your daughter will always know you are there for her, even if you upset her. She will always come back to you.

I say read up about it and learn, educate her very carefully, put it in perspective. And I can't underestimate the value of using videos and pictures to do this.

You sound like a really good mum.

I wish my mum had said something like 'you can do better' or 'you don't have to stay with him, you know' it might've helped when I felt I couldn't get out. Five years on and I'm doing it on my own.

Maybe when she starts her masters it'll fizzle out. I hope she sees him for who he is.

Buy her this book. Say nothing, just ask her to read it and make up her own mind.

unrealhousewife can I just ask you what personal experience you have of dealing with this kind of situation with a DD or someone very close to you and how long it took to resolve?

Also girl I tried saying those things in the early stages, it just alienated my DD from me and made her more determined to make her relationship what she wanted it to be, rather than what it was.
I also have another who was in a relationship that everyone else could see wasn't right for either of them. There was nothing bad about him really, just not right for each other. You couldn't tell her, she didn't want to hear it.

It's so very hard with friends let alone family, when you and others can see the situation as crystal clear, but the people at the heart of it either can't see, or won't see and very often, particularly as the DM, you're simply accused of thinking noone will ever be 'good enough' for your DD when it isn't that at all, you have real and very valid concerns.

Gosh,
don't I know this scenario. Funny isn't it when your daughter needs some one perhaps to say, remove their appendix they would be looking for a surgeon who has experience, but a Mothers experience of life is worth nothing. In my case it was one of my sons heading for disaster with a unsuitable person. I said absolutely nothing and eventually their relationship ended. YIPEE! It is all right everyone saying they are adults but it is their good and unselfish Mothers who will be picking up the pieces and looking after the children, when the relationship ends. Mothers who love their children are also the MIL's who saw it coming. As a Mother you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. Best of luck OP, as a Mother of grown Children I feel for you. There is nothing that you can do except be there to pick up the pieces. It is just not fair when you could have warned them. At least they are not married.

himh but it's like the saying that you can't put an old head on young shoulders.

If it's any consolation - probably not - but anyway, my DD who was in the not good but not awful relationship was with him for six years. She was heartbroken when it ended. Looking back from a much better place later on she said that if I had any future concerns about a partner she'd want to know as she trusts my judgement and opinions, but she admits that at the time she didn't want to know at all. She had her own doubts but didn't want to admit it even to herself. It's all part of the maturing process and we all mature at different ages and stages of our life.

Obviously the comments I've been making are in cases where the relationship just isn't right and the parties seem happy enough, I'm not talking about sustained and serious abuse.

so sad to read this.

my dd was in a abusive relationship...emotional/physical/financial....
she "knew" it was wrong, but "wanted to stay for the children".
2 decades later, it is finally over.

each time I tried to help her to leave she would go NC with me.
one time she even told me to "apologise" to the abuser or she would go NC, which she did.

I even made a 6 page statement to the police, which she even denied, again NC.

finally, after years of heartbreak and frightening turmoil, she is free.

so yes, it's
"wrong" if you do say something.
"wrong" if you dont.

in our case, it was simply playing the waiting game,

whilst reassuring dd as much as possible ,that you would pick up the pieces, which eventually will happen.

your dd is very young, you could be surprised one day..soon...that she tells you she has found someone else, or better still is preparing to study abroad.

all you can do is to sit and watch now, who knows what's around that proverbial corner.
keep your friends close, and enemies closer, to be honest I wish that I had "kept" the abuser closer

Unfortunately, acting protectively is liable to make things worse - by angrily criticizing DD's bf for behaving badly, this increases his defensiveness, which increases her defensiveness, which results in alienation.

Was he her first significant boyfriend?

Don't give him negative feedback, concentrate on her. You said,

He prioritises everything in his life ahead of DD
That might grate on her eventually.

Somewhere early on she missed the rule, 'Never date a guy who treats his friends better than he treats you'.

They never do anything together as a couple
So his idea of fun is getting other people involved in their social activities. Surely eventually she will feel a disconnect with him at home. At some point she may cotton on the only thing that energizes him alone with her is - excuse me saying so - sex.

flowersinatub has nailed it, it's a waiting game. Some day you may be able to get across to her, "Walk away from this man. It doesn’t mean you stop caring about him altogether, it means that you have more self respect for yourself".

flowers that's heartbreaking. What you say about keeping your enemies close makes a lot of sense, I would see that you have to play them at their own game and having contact with the abuser (inviting him out and getting him involved in your lives) will show your daughter that it's not between you and her. Showing him that your bond is strong will also help, I can imagine a lot of them encourage negative thinking about their victims mothers.

When my dd brought her first controlling bf round her Dad insisted on doing the big handshake and pally supportive manly thing as if to say 'I'm watching you'. He didn't come round again and they split up very soon after. It probably does help if there's an adult male to meet them head on, speak in their language and have the protective 'if you touch a hair on her head I'll break your kneecaps' discussion with them.

But there is a world of difference between someone being in a half-baked dysfunctional relationship to being in an abusive relationship such a your daughters, where the abuser will actively try to restrict access by sabotaging the parent/child relationship. He will try to do this regardless of what you do.

My advice would be to educate her as much as possible as Celia advised, by giving her books about abusive relationships and learning about it yourself, then tackling it as you would any other kind of rescue mission, with tact and careful planning and a long term view.

Unfortunately, acting protectively is liable to make things worse - by angrily criticizing DD's bf for behaving badly, this increases his defensiveness, which increases her defensiveness, which results in alienation.

Donkeys there are a lot of ways of acting protectively without making things worse and angrily criticising. Not acting is probably worst of all as they will never see their relationship in perpective, they think Mum thinks it's OK.

I should have said conspicuously protectively - obviously I don't mean, throw in the towel and let DD feel abandoned.

And I think an adult female is just as adept at "speaking their language" as an adult male don't you?

Women are just as adept at speaking the language, but abusive men are more likely to listen to the underlying threat of physical force from a man than a woman's forceful words.

The way victims perceive the words and actions of anyone who intervenes is also key. As teenagers their response to social cues is particularly heightened and they can get messages very wrong. It will be very distorted and can take on any meaning really.

This is why I think that not responding can be risky because it can be read by her that you don't care, and will be used by the abuser as 'see, your mother doesn't think I'm doing anything wrong'.