Why do emotional abusers and bullies do it?

[Brittapieandchips]

I know it should just be 'they are twats' but there must be something going through their heads. Do they know they are doing it?

I think XH was basically convinced he was a tragic hero, flawed but good, in a world that was pitted against him. He saw me as completely unreasonable, lazy and attention seeking so justified himself like that. I think.

School and work bullies just thought I was weird and they needed to tell me and show me that they wouldn't stand for it.

What about the men that physically abuse their wives? Or other combinations of gender/relationship?

Yes.

They do know they are doing it.

They do it because they can: other people allow them to.

Not always straight away; sometimes it's like the analogy of the frog and the boiling water: put a frog in a pan of boiling water (abuse) - it will jump straight out. Put a frog in a pan of cold water, it will stay there even if you start to heat the water up, and to boiling point.

They do it because it pays: psychically, psychologically, financially...

Yes, they know they are doing it. If it was subconscious, they would be abusive in their relationships with everyone eg work, family.

Not having read all of Lundy (Why do they do that?) I would guess the answer is because they feel they need to do it to maintain a relationship dynamic that works with them.

Saying that they do it because other people allow them to do it is too close to victim blaming for me. They carefully calibrate the abuse to try to ensure the person stays.

I think they are emotionally stunted people, who hate feeling that they can't control every aspect of their lives, so they get abusive trying to control their partner/spouse, and it sort of does work, at least at first, most of the time.

I think at work, one manager I know, I'm sure he thinks he's being a strong manager and we're just really difficult and recalcitrant. What he actually is, is a bullying, incompetent arse. However, people don't pull him up on a lot of the undermining things, like cancelling meetings with only 5 minutes to go, or interrupting and talking over people in meetings - something I have a little sympathy with, because I sometimes do it, because I am rubbish at judging breaks in conversation, but at least I usually realise and apologise, whereas I don't think he realises at all.

Having said that, he does know at some level, because I stood up to him, and he hasn't spoken to me at all this year and longer. I don't know if it's conscious, but he does focus on those he can dominate, and once he's decided someone is rubbish, no amount of evidence will change his mind.

It's fascinating in some ways, trying to work out his mindset - I'm not sure I've met anyone else with so little self-awareness - but it's also infuriating to have to work with, and I wish someone else would complain formally, so HR have something to work with. "Oh, but it's just the way it is," they say.

I suspect on some level, he does have doubts about his abilities and is actually quite insecure, so tries to beat down any opposition. Doesn't stop him being poison though.

Because it makes them feel better.

I suppose, not having studied the subject, I can only speak about the one I knew, my Ex. He tried to separate me from my friends (wasn't with me long enough for that to be totally effective) and put me down. I always assumed it was because he was so insecure that he felt that if he left me as a secure person with a good network around me, I would not want to stay with him. He was also very easily led by other men of his ilk and wanted to look good in their eyes. I have also seen over the many years since that he has some deep deep trauma that makes reflection impossibly dangerous for him. I don't know what it is, it might even be something that nobody else would think twice about.

Interesting thread as I do feel sorry for these people, even though I'm the first to tell their partners to get away from them.

I like the concept of 'predatory self-esteem'. Bullies IME are often very insecure, cowardly, inadequate types. If they could be successful & popular being decent, they'd do it. Because they have nothing much going for them they have to resort to cheap tricks, bluster, manipulation, casting blame & making others feel crap instead.

The techniques vary but the motive is always the same. Selfishness.

"I think they are emotionally stunted people, who hate feeling that they can't control every aspect of their lives, so they get abusive trying to control their partner/spouse, and it sort of does work, at least at first, most of the time." < I agree with this.

It could also be continuing the cycle of abuse that they were raised in.

I'm cautious about cycles of abuse as a reason. I think we always have a choice whether to copy or reject behaviour modelled to us early in life. It may be easier to copy rather than reject but it remains a choice, nevertheless.

But then why do we spend so much time telling people to model good relationships?

Because it's easier to copy than to reject. Model a good, kind, respectful relationship and it's easier for DCs to emulate that as they grow up. Doesn't guarantee they won't be bullies of course.

But also it would require the person to be self aware. Which many are not.

I don't think you have to be self-aware especially in order to have an opinion about the way you were raised. Neither do I think bullies lack self-awareness necessarily. I'm sure many know exactly what they are doing but rationalise it in various ways ('everyone's against me', 'I'm stressed', 'other people are idiots', 'I deserve special treatment') and then choose to carry on regardless.

Surly people like this lack the understanding of how their actions affect others? Bullies don't think of their victim, it's a power trip for them.

I don't know why. But you need to stay away from any kind of bully :)

Agree it's about power and jealousy.

I don't think they lack understanding a lot of the time. They don't care about others but that's not the same thing. I think they understand perfectly well that they are making someone frightened, anxious or unhappy, because that's the objective of the behaviour. In fact, a bully (controlling/abusive/etc) will derive huge satisfaction from seeing the impact of their behaviour and use it as encouragement to pile on more of the same.

Not all of them realise they are doing it. I mean the behaviours aren't accidental, but I don't think all of them realise that they're being abusive.

Even the ones who want control in every aspect of their lives don't always realise that by demanding that, they're abusing someone else. They're just trying to protect themselves.

My mother is the most abusive person I've ever met, yet she considers herself a victim and, when I used to see her, would cry and tell me just how alone she was, how she had no one, how no one cared about her... and she really believed it. Yet she was the most vicious, spiteful, self centred individual I've ever, personally, encountered. Hierarchical and predatory self esteem describe her exactly.

The same goes for my exH. He considered himself to be 'a good man' and believes he spent our entire marriage sacrificing himself to meet my needs. And, on the surface, he does appear to have made many sacrifices. But they were all to meet needs he imagined me to have, rather than the needs I did/do have. He didn't value me as an equal. I am a woman, and therefore I am weak, vulnerable, in need of rescuing and protection. I deserved to be protected from real life in order to protect my innocence... and when I 'ungratefully' rejected this, boy was I punished!

But I really don't think for a second he got a 'kick' out of the above. I do think he got a kick out of the punishments, but that's becaue he was angry with for not allowing him to nurture and protect me, and for letting myself down in rejecting my femininity...

I don't think it's that easy to dismiss cycles of abuse either. People have to recognise it before they can choose to reject it. Otherwise, it's just the way things are.

So my exH's parents were alcoholics. He spent his whole childhood protecting them from anything that might upset them because he feared their reaction. They were also loud, brash and aggressive. He wanted the opposite of that for his own life. He'd become conditions to 'fix' and to protect. He genuinely thought that I was unusual in not wanting a man to scoop me up and protect me from the world entirely. I mean, who wouldn't want that ?!!

My exH believed I was being emotionally abusive by rejecting his 'efforts' to 'improve' me.

I'm not dismissing the concept of an abuse cycle. As I say, it's easier to copy than to reject. However the man you describe clearly chose (in his mind) to go the opposite way to dysfunctional, aggressive parents but went way past caring and into controlling, dominant behaviour. So he recognised his upbringing and rejected it in one sense but exercised no restraint and no correction when he could see it distressed you.

Yes, they know they are doing it. If it was subconscious, they would be abusive in their relationships with everyone eg work, family.

I'm not being deliberately awkward. It's just that having lived with 4 abusive people in my life (my parents and 2 LTRs) I've given this a lot of thought, and I'm happy to have my views challenged :)

My exH would have said that he didn't 'care' as much about those other people and so if they chose to behave in undesireable ways it didn't upset him as much. He was certainly critical about them, just not too them.

See, obviously, now I recogise these as red flags. I didn't realise it at the time though. But I still don't think he knew he was being 'abusive'... or a bully.

I think that a lot of bullies don't recognise their own behaviour.

They go about things the wrong way and feel frustrated when that doesn't work. They are too absorbed with their own feelings about it to notice that the person they have picked on is a wreck. They are surprised that when they next see that person, that person does not want to talk to them/work with them/cuddle them/carry on as usual. Then they feel more frustrated and so it goes on.

The issue being that they are focusing on achieving compliance and do not notice the distress, only the non-compliance.

The biggest bully in my life has been known to say in all seriousness that the problem is that others do not try hard enough to get along with him. He genuinely thinks he's a lovely bloke, and should be treated as such, but doesn't appreciate that people who do that are walking on eggshells He criticises people for behaviour which he himself has provoked - slamming doors, being 'lemon-faced', refusals to replay conversations.

It makes him a dangerous, nasty person to be around, but in all honesty I don't think he knows he's doing it. He's pretty miserable.

Emotionally stunted - a perfect description! My STBXH was vile to his Mum, it's one of the things we would argue about. But she enabled him to be abusive by putting up with it. It's also learned behaviour - his Dad would speak to his Mum like crap (as did his brother and sister at times) and she said nothing.

When I told his Mum one of the reasons I wanted to separate was because of his verbal abuse she told me 'well we will defend him no matter what' I reminded her of times he had been abusive to me in front of her and she said she couldn't remember those times at all. Utter rubbish.

When my young son told me to shut up (Dad always says it to you) I knew I had to end the marriage - hopefully I can cut the cycle and my son will treat women with respect.