Just some thoughts needed,marriage at bit of a funny point.........

[suntansally]

We have been married for 15 years have 4c's all under age of 11,it has been tough at times but only because it has been relentless,we get not much help with dc's which I kind of am proud of,we have done the tough bit together.I have been mostly SAHM with a few little jobs along the way.
My DH has his own business which is essentially doing well,he has a really bad money management ethic,I run the house accounts/ bills and he has done his business.My purse strings are run very tightly and most of our I money stays in his business to keep it ticking over so for the whole time I have tried to save pennies,not have holidays and basically saved.
My DH keeps spending ridiculous amounts of money (mostly on the house but sometimes on ego building hobbies)that we haven't got and he manages to do it craftily so that I don't find out until it's too late,every 6 months I catch up with it then we have firm word's says sorry doesn't do it again for a bit then it happens again.what the issue is with me is that it is only money but it worries me sick that we will get to a point where we can't sort it out,we have re-mortgaged,twice,re-structured his business etc and it goes on,I hit A low point with ds1 and had post natal depression,mostly because our money was so bad at this point but Because I had a little newborn I simply couldn't sort the finances out alone and he just buries his head.
It has happened again recently,I try not to cause relationship issues as I hate what money seems to do but if DH was careful with money we wouldn't have this pressure,my father lost our family home when I was 8 and we ended up homeless with my mother sick with a. Nervous breakdown,My DH makes me feel these things over and over every 6 months,I love him but will ultimately protect my children and won't be able to keep this up long term.
I speak openly to him all the time,I am now on anti depressant as It was starting to get panic attacks I just feel like he will be saying sorry and doing it again,I am losing the trust I have in him.it is hard to love someone who keeps hurting me over and over,he sees tears,acts like I am just having a 'female moment' and that it will pass,I feel like I am slipping down,I am struggling now to keep a positive outlook,I am not materialistic at all so don't 'need' expensive things,,I feel like he has to massage his ego constantly,it is wearing thin.any advice from outside welcome??I can't to to anyone here as I am surrounded by his family and friends,so it often looks like the sun shines out of his arse because obviously we can afford all of these things as he works so hard.........oh just lately I have noticed that he will use me as a scape goat too which does nothing but make me look like shit he is so obsessed with his image whilst it is me desperately trying to hold it all together

Stop... Stop colluding with the ego-massaging, stop believing his lies, stop keeping his secrets, stop trying to hold it all together. You can't keep a positive outlook with someone who is determined to act selfishly and bring you down. You can't cure 'being married to a selfish arse' with anti-depressants. He sounds like he treats you with utter contempt, dismissing your genuine fears quite nastily and using you as a scape goat.... and that's bullying behaviour that is 100% unacceptable. Lavish spending on himself whilst forcing you to penny pinch is classed as financial abuse and I think you can add emotional abuse on top.

Please talk honestly to someone you can trust about what is really going on and how you really feel. A trusted friend, a parent or seek counselling. People are not stupid. You may have material goods, a fancy lifestyle and a certain image ... but I bet at least some of them have seen through the Billy Bullshit act.

You have choices.

Thank you cogito,he seems to have washed up this evening so probably thinks that this will suffice for now! I need to have a long hard think,I hate feeling so weak,I can usually do this stuff.
Don't g me wrong we don't have flash cars or clothes but still spend beyond our capability,I have wanted sto save for a while now, could do with a regular holiday!yes I know it's up to me to make things happen!

The only thing I can really offer you is this: it's OK to leave him over this behaviour. It's not trivial. He is fundamentally selfish and won't change. At bottom, he thinks that you don't really matter, because you are a woman and therefore his inferior.

I would suggest talking to a solicitor about how best to proceed. It doesn't mean you have to throw him out immediately, but it's a good idea to get all the relevant information and then decide what to do.

God how sad I didn't feel for one minute it had gone that far,I still feel that he hasn't taken me overly seriously he just keeps asking me if I want a drink?or if I am ok?its our anniversary next week!how strange,I have had such a fuzzy head looking after the children for so long,now things seem a bit clearer,I think that unfortunately I have a classic mummies boy,he has had everything done for him,I remember him telling me a story about him being grounded when he was a boy,he managed to persuade his mum to let him buy a radio controlled car because he was bored! Spells it out really for me!
I have had an upbringing which was tough and took me only until a couple of years ago to fully say I knew how O felt about my upbringing and have dealt with that too.....it is a little bit if a mid life crisis I am having but also feel capable to now face other things,and need to for positive experiences.My self esteem has been so low throughout my life that I always feel I owe anyone that is nice to me a favour,I met my DH after a bad relationship and he lifted me from this,sorted out a debt I was left with from a previous partner(it may sound as if it's me ,it kind if is!my issue is what money 'does 'so I do tend to back away from 'managing money',.in my last relationship my ex was telling me that whilst I agreed to pay ALL the bills on our house that he would pay his credit card off-I subsequently found out he wasn't")I left when he strangled me!I seem to be one of these people that it seems ok for people to walk over.
I have arranged. Money meeting with DH tomorrow where between us we will lay it all on the table......it won't be pretty.

I certainly can't leave over money because then money has won again!! I am bigger than that what would be really helpful is how to sort this money mess! My father is a millionaire too and only ever given me £5000 towards my wedding which I had to ask for so I opted not to have the big white wedding,I wasn't worth it!..it pisses me off.seeing as he lost our home when a I was younger and never gave mum anything after this experience not even an apology.this has hindered me so much in life,I have recently decided not to let this drag me down any more.I am trying to explain why I find things so tricky.
Before people start thinking I want handouts,(again this is how I feel) I have done 2 level 3 exams and am currently applying to do my nursing degree!I am a grafter.

You have a genuine fear of losing everything because of overspending. You know the risks as you went through it as a child. Dh knows this, and doesn't stop.

My advice would be, don't listen to his words, look at his actions. If he says he's sorry but does it again, he's not sorry. If he does everything he can to scrimp and save and support you, then he is.

Having worked out who he is, you then need to ask yourself, "do I want to be with someone who treats me this way and risks the dcs' home and stability?"

That's it really. Could you cope if he carried on doing this forever? So far his actions say that that is what is going to happen. I'm not saying he can't change, but you being upset and hurt to the point of getting depression hasn't been enough to stop him. What do you think would?

I know I couldn't live like this, with such uncertainty and fear. He is being unfair on you.

If you do sit down and lay your cards on the table, then be certain that you can follow through with any path you suggest. You have given him many chances to change. You don't have to give him another. I'm not sure I'd want to stay with someone who would change if I threatened to leave, but not because of my hurt.

Also, please get some counselling for your low self esteem. It sounds like you've been through difficult times and manage incredibly. You should be very proud of yourself and think you're great :) get rid of the low self esteem and you won't let people treat you like this. You and the dcs deserve stability, with or without dh.

Xpost, you've got that the wrong way round! Leaving because of money says you are not willing to let it hurt you anymore. You won't be controlled by the fear of it, so you're walking away.

Don't stay and be ill, if that's the reason you won't leave. That way money wins and dh has you trapped forever and he can do what he wants.

I can resonate with a lot of your posts and can see that you are a grafter. Just make sure you are not acting like a martyr/victim.

We always have our own roles when relationships her sticky. It sounds as though you are a saver, your husband is a spender, never the twain shall meet.

I wonder whether you both need independent financial advise at this stage. If you had the meeting with your OH and financially bowed out of all business dealing. Resigned your post as it were, what would he do then? You are essentially taking the role of his Mother here and he is acting like a school boy and saying 'Yes Ma'am' to smooth the situation then going straight back to his old ways afterwards. There has to be a short sharp shock applied I think.

Hi

I'd just like to add that his approach to spending will also be firmly attached to his past and his upbringing. Rather than viewing his disregard for your financial management as a form of abuse it might be more helpful to view his inability to stick to the spending plan as something he has as much control over as you would have over enjoying spending credit on something entirely unnecessary.

It is likely that he struggles to control the finances for you the majority of the time but due to his internal landscape he gives into at various times.

For various reasons he will be getting some kind significance from his spending. While external signs of material success are not important to you they are obviously of importance to him.

If I were to imagine your situation I would imagine that you dictate and he agrees. The problem with this type of arrangement is that he feels he is supressing himself for your sake and almost being a "good little boy" when he is doing as he is told. In a similar vein when he messes up and is "naughty" he knows that mummy will fix it all.

I think you may have to acknowledge that while outward material signs of wealth are not important to you they are to him. While you feel his spending decisions are pointless and spendthrift they are not to him. Maybe a compromise would be that he has a certain amount each month/year that he can spend on whatever he wants, no questions asked and no judgements made.

I might be wrong but I imagine he would not berate or be angry if you spent outwith your means on a regular basis. It is you who puts constraints on your spending.

It sounds as though you have a variety of unresolved issues and counselling will be of help in untangling these issues and making sense of things.

If however, the financial disregard for you and your family is only one part of an overall disregard for you and your family then forget all of the above and look at abusive relationships and how to get out of them.

Rainbow, it really would not be fair for dh to have a slush fund whilst his dw and the dcs scrimp and save.

I do agree that it sounds like he won't change and this is just who he is. But if that's the case you're going to end up bankrupt. You spend the money if you have the money, not if you don't.

I certainly can't leave over money because then money has won again!!
But it's not about this. It's about being with a selfish, disrespecful arse!

Please get yourself some counselling through your GP.

You could also contact Womens Aid and do the Freedom Programme.
You were previously in an abusive relationship. The man you are with now doesn't respect you at all. The Freedom Programme may help you understand why you put up with this treatment.

You seem very passive. This jumps out at me.
I try not to cause relationship issues
How are you causing any of this?
HE is causing this with his selfishness. Please realise this first and foremost!

IT'S NOT YOU - IT'S HIM! (sorry to shout)

I certainly can't leave over money
You wouldn't be leaving over money. You would be leaving because your dh's habits leave you feeling insecure and that he is gambling with the stability of your home. You would also be leaving because you can't live like this. It's impacting on your mental health.

Imagine that this cycle is going to repeat for the rest of your life ie you will have a chat with dh, he'll make apologies and promises, then six months later you're back in the same place. Surely that isn't a life you want? Arguably it's not even a life that's mentally or emotionally sustainable.

I think you should try to see a counsellor. You are merging lots of different issues about money together eg your feelings towards your df; your feelings towards your dh. A counsellor once told me 'this is not that' meaning there can be similarities in situations and they can tap into our deepest fears and memories but that doesn't mean they are the same and will have the same outcome. You need to try to deal with the overhanging issues from your childhood. That will give you strength to make the right decisions about your current relationship.

Also try not to blame your MIL for your dh's actions (because she spoiled him as a child). He's an adult. He made commitments to you. He's not fulfilling them and regardless of how often you tell him what's important to you, he's merrily doing his own thing and ignoring you.

His parents are always harping on about money! They have no idea what his spending habits are like,actually they probably think that I am being frivolous going to visit my. Mum in Cornwall once a year!I know I shouldn't care what people think but I do especially when I am screaming from inside!!!cant afford a counsellor ATM

I thought I'd chime in with my two-penneth's worth.

I recognised alot of my own marriage in you post. Right down to the point where I thought it was my wife posting (same profession even).

I also spend lots of money on the house (it is an ego thing I guess). I do it because I want the best for my family - and I suppose I want everyone to know that I provide for them. I know that there's no way my wife would go for half of the things I'd want to do - or she'd be shocked at the cost, so I manage it myself. It's a form of financial abuse I guess, but I don't do it with in any malice. Perhaps your husband is the same..........? MY family NEVER went without, but, as the sole earner, I was treating "our" money as "my" money.

Now for the good news:

Things inproved for us when my wife qualified as a nurse. It gives her her own sense of security. I feel bad for the way I behaved, but to be honest, at the time (despite the rows) I didn't really think that it was a serious problem. My wife contributes (financially) when she remembers to and takes great pride in the fact. She's also securing her own future with regards to pension entitlement, savings (shared) etc.

Thanks malice no. I am not your wife!!he he.....I had a bit if a chat last night I am not sure I really got any answers or even if has any at the moment,he just saiid he thought it best not to speak last night....I mentioned that this isn't a hormonal rant and that it was quit crucial he listened and. Heard.i said that I can give this a last ditch year and if there wasn't an improvement then we would need to assess the future together...( it would take a year to sensibly pay things off)

I said that if marriage wasn't for him then don't be married ,be single,spend your money do what you like,ATM that would be easier for me.i would know where I stood

Oh I do actually work both within my own job and for him too.therefore I feel I do contribute more than enough.....if I worked much more then he would have to have the children more and that would infringe on his work( not that that would be a bad thing ATM)

Suntan, even if you didn't work, this wouldn't be ok.

How did he respond?

Did he make suggestions about how to budget? What he can do to contain his spending? How you would discuss all large purchases? Or did he just listen sheepishly and not really engage?

He needs to be active in this. Not passively letting you do it all.

There needs to be complete transparency and at the end of each month you look at all money together, see where it's going and plan together on what can be done.

Good luck!

Malice, if you decided to make large purchases as "what is best for the family" when you knew your wife would be upset, that really wasn't what you were doing at all. You were doing the most damaging thing you could for the family. The fact your wife now has her own income (although you're disparaging about how she contributes), doesn't mean you have any more respect for her.

Although I'm glad she is securing herself a future that is not reliant on being with you.

You refer to 'female moment' in your OP; is that your expression or your DH's?

He seems incredibly dismissive towards you.

he just saiid he thought it best not to speak last night
Of course he did.
He realises things are changing and you are getting to the end of your tether so he will put it all off for as long as possible.
What an arse.
And this I mentioned that this isn't a hormonal rant Really?
Why would you need to mention this?
Does he often put all your concerns down to hormones?
He sounds lovely and understanding!

Fuckyou I said I wanted the best for my family. The best (in the material sense) often costs money. At the moment, we're having building work done (and this is the bit which chimed with the op) and I've totally over-specc'd it. The build, which isn't even close to being finished, has already gone way over budget. My favourite saying at the moment is: "If you're gonna be a bear, be a Grizzly" crass I know

The point is, that I want us (all) to have the best. It's unlikely my wife would see the money as being well spent - during the construction phase at least. I'm indulged (though she does complain) because she knows that I don't really spend any money on myself and that this is "my thing" (perhaps the same is true of the op's husband).

I don't particularly approve of my wife buying crappy bits of painted driftwood with pithy quotes on them. But that's her thing.

I wasn't disrespecting my wife. She often forgets to make her contribution. I (sometimes) remind her, but the fact is that she often forgets. I doesn't mean I disrespect her.

suntansally could you write a letter to your dh? Then he can read it at leisure even if he doesn't think it's the best time to speak . Also, it should help to avoid the accusations of being hormonal.

If you've given a timescale of a year then work out a breakdown of what will change during the year. Otherwise, he could suddenly do something positive at the end of twelve months which leaves you unsure if he has changed or not, and two years later, you'll still be there trying to work out if the relationship is salvageable or not.

Malice I don't want to derail the op, but I'm sure you're aware that substantial spends on building work are in no way comparable to your wife buying bits of driftwood unless she has a warehouse full of them!

As long as your wife was involved in the discussions and part of making an informed decision about the work being done, Malice, then that's fine. I hope you're being honest with her about the cost.

Why don't you have a joint account and Direct Debits set up. Why does she need to give her earnings to you to pay bills? It just all sounds a bit uncomfortable to me. But then there's people on here who keep their finances completely separate at all times. It's whatever works.

If your dw isn't happy, then it's not working, if she is (and is fully informed) then all is well.

Suntan, I hope you can formulate a plan and that he sticks to it. But I think you need to prepare for the worst.

Oh, isn't finances just the worst for marriages!

It's quite nice to see posters NOT advice OP to leave her dh, that's rare on MN...

I just want to say that people CAN change. My DH was quite bad with money when we were younger, and it was always me who had to pick up the pieces. He has really changed, we are about to move from one rented house to another, and he found a house that is bigger than our current let and cheaper, he did really well. We are both self-employed and work through our Ltd company (our businesses have nothing in common, but we save lots of money by running them through the same Ltd) and he manages the business money and I manage personal money. He has really "grown up" from having responsibility for the business money and he is doing really well, he is clearing the business overdraft.

Maybe the OPs husband never had to take responsibility for money becase she did? Perhaps OP would consider giving up responsibility for money and leaving it to her DH? It would be a bit rough to begin with, I am sure, but, hey, it doesn't sound like she has much to loose.

Fuckyou I don't want to take over the op's thread, but my wife wouldn't really approve of the cost of the work. She doesn't really appreciate the expense involved in getting things to the stage where she does start to take an interest.

I actually know that it's less than ideal, but we rub along with this strange sort of truce. If money was tighter than it is (we're not wealthy) it might be an issue.

We do have a joint account. She just often forgets to credit it.

I note OP that your father is wealthy. Perhaps your husband feels he has big shoes to fill? You know that the road to success is littered with failed ventures, turmoil, etc. Most people only ever see the end result. This means you'll sense things more acutely perhaps.