dear sister is 61 but distraught...

[gottasortit]

i'll try to keep it as short as I can.

DS, a bit older than me has had a difficult life (orphaned as a young child).

many years ago, her now x husband wanted to move/work abroad.

her 2 son's grew up and married abroad in the same area.

her dh at the time promised her that if she didn't settle they would come back to the UK.

she disliked the place on contact, I agree, I would hate to spend the rest of my life there.

her DH worked hard, but managed to travel all over the world with his job, and enjoyed his life totally.

each time ds said she wanted to come back to the uk, he would persuade her, try for another 3/5 years etc,
ds suffered depression from the longing to come home and be with family here.

her dc's are settled and happy there, it is the only home they have ever really known.

DS and her DH are now divorced as he met a new partner who is happy living there, so all good for him.
he has a new partner, his 2 adult sons, and 4 grandchildren.

if my DS came back to the uk now, it would mean leaving her children and gc behind.

my questions is this.

is it worth leaving 30 years of your life behind, and family, to return to her dreams of the uk.
DS is adamant she won't "die in the crappy place", but has her future been drawn out for her.

stay with her children where she doesn't want to be,
or,
leave it all behind???

sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees.

each time she talks to me, it's like another cut in my heart hearing her unhappiness

Are her memories of the UK slightly rose-tinted after all these years? Could she come back for an extended holiday - say a couple of months - to reconnect with old friends and family and see what life might be like for her if she moved back? Thirty years is an awfully long time. She will have changed a lot. This country has certainly changed a lot. Maybe it isn't quite the utopia she dreams of, but only she can decide that. What kind of life could she afford here? I think she should do some serious research and spend some serious time here and then make her mind up. She's never going to be happy until she's made a decision and made her peace with the choice.

Good advice from Juneau there.

thank you, yes this country has changed a lot,
but as DS has returned frequently each year, it has always felt like home for her.

almost as though she never left,

I suppose she was "forced" to leave the uk , as her x-husband was/is a strong character (manipulative/controlling/selfish).

DS certainly could financially move back, but the main issue of course is leaving behind the son's and GC.
DS has a DD and dg in the uk, but the decision to leave or stay is leaving DD exhausted physically and mentally.

it really seems to be she is between a rock and hard place for ever more.

DS has a DD and dg in the uk, but the decision to leave or stay is leaving DD exhausted physically and mentally (did you mean her DD is exhausted or your DSis)

So if she moved back she would be close to you and to her dd and dgc - assuming that she has a good relationship with them - and she would be able to visit her sons and grandchildren in "the crappy place" a couple of times a year?

I think that she is in an awful situation and will be very sad to leave her family, but that she will regret it terribly if she doesn't come back. She is young enough to settle in a new community here, to make new friends and take up activities, or even get a job. She can Skype her gcs every day if she has a computer, and tell them all about her new life - they may even end up coming to the UK for University and seeing a lot of her!

Could she not leave her options open and return to the UK for say 3 to 6 months and if she doesn't settle down she can go back. It's really impossible to say if she will like it.

Thing is that visiting and living here are two very different things. When you visit for a week or two people will make an effort to see you, set time aside, etc, whereas when you move back for good it can be rather different. Once you're permanently around people go back to their normal lives and if you aren't part of their normal lives (and after thirty years of living elsewhere, you won't be), it can take time to build up a proper social life again. I know - I lived OS for just six years and found slotting back into life in the UK was harder than I'd imagined it would be, despite visiting lots and keeping up with old friends while I was away. People have their own lives and their ingrained habits and you have to really make an effort. Do you think she'd do that? Also, if her DC and DG are in this other country who does she miss so much in the UK? Siblings? Old friends? Are your parents still alive?

If she has DC in both counties I assume there's I reason she couldn't visit for several months a year.

My friend's Dad lives in the UK but travels to his home country for at least 3 months a year.

sorry, DS is exhausted,

just wanting to make a decision, but not knowing which way to turn.

oh yes, DS and her DD have an excellent relationship, in fact her daughter begs her to come home, now she has a child herself.

DS certainly could visit her 2 sons frequently, but would feel "guilt" at leaving them.

she is a very sociable person and could quite easily establish a new life here in the uk.

she has never remarried, always putting her adults son's needs before her own, always being on tap for them, (32 and 34)

we live in the SE, a place DS loves and is totally familiar with, but she thinks if she leaves to come "home" she will lose the everyday things with her sons and gc.
DS is afraid/vulnerable and alone and depressed.

I spoke to DN today, and he is quite happy for his mum to come home, but said she is afraid to make the move.

the bottomline is this...

DS hates with a vengeance the place she has had to call home for so long, and just longs to be back here.

it should be a straightforward decision but maybe at her age, it could appear to be so daunting that she will, as she says, die in this awful place.
help or advice please I can't bear to hear my DS so distressed and unhappy

If you have space, I'd invite for a long holiday (3months?) as a trial. Let her have a look at houses etc and see how she feels at the end.

DS would have to sell her home, then come back,
but it is a thought,

perhaps if she did that, she could rent in the uk say for 6 months,
then decide where she wants to spend the rest of her life.

another possible solutions I could suggest to her.

thank you, as they say, it's good to talk!

Could she not rent out her home for six months and rent furnished place here as a trial? If she's so miserable and depressed it sounds like she's really backed herself into a corner with this issue and is going to have to bite the bullet and come over here to try it out or she'll never get out of this indecisive funk. I think you should speak to your two DNs who live near her and get them to reassure her that its the right decision. She's never going to go unless they give her their blessing and perhaps a little push.

Her children are adults now and shouldn't need her on tap as and when they want something from her. Emails, phone-calls and Skype can be used to keep in touch. Or they can come over here to visit with their children. If she's truly miserable where she is now I don't see it as any sort of dilemma. She should sell her property and start packing.

Do you think she is depressed at the moment? It sounds as if she might be.

If so, this will be adding to her feelings of misery and indecision - and the sense that 'no option is good.'

If she thinks depression might be playing a part, it would be worthwhile treating it before making any decisions. It will help clear her mind.

But I also think a temporary move or holiday will help with decision making. It would be unwise for her to do anything drastic or permanent while feeling so down. As a wise person said on a thread yesterday, you take yourself with you wherever you go. A big change might, or might not, offer what she's hoping for.

Do her adult sons have spare rooms? Could she sell up in other country, come back, live near her DD, but go back for 3-4 months at a time, splitting her time between them so it's not like she is overstaying at anyone's house.

It might be a good idea to rent somewhere in the UK for 6 months, rent out her place overseas and see if she likes it.

Also worth thinking, she won't be entitled to a full state pension here, is she giving up eligability to a good pension in other country if she leaves?

thank you all for your really helpful replies.

ds1 unfortunately has a narcissistic and manipulative wife, and despises my DS, but DS is close as is possible with her DS1.

DS2 is fine, no problems at all, he is the one I spoke to today and he is happy for DS to come home.

DS is depressed and has been for many years, suffering living where she didn't want to be.

yes, ..you take yourself wherever you go...basically she is a very happy person given the chance.
she loves music, dancing/theatre and so on.

certainly the rental idea here is a possible option, even rather than selling up overseas.

re her pension, I think we have that covered okay as she will get a good price for her home.

DS is going to ring me later at least I can offer a possible option for her...rental...

it's just after last night hearing her so sad, I just want to go and pick her up and bring her home with me forever!

but i'll wait and see how she is today.

I know I would feel the same, gotta.
Hope the call goes well.

She would probably be caught by the Habitual Residence Test if she needs to claim any benefits. Look at adviceguide.org.uk or gov.uk for information on this.

gottasortit, this is a relatively minor detail but the usual MN abbreviation for sister is DSis, to distinguish from son (DS) - it makes threads such as yours, easier to follow!

I hope your DSis finds the courage to come and live here for a while and hopefully begin the process of settling - maybe it would help her to see it as 'DDs turn' to have a local grandma for her DCs, which her sons have enjoyed for a few years?

whoops, sorry!

DSis,has said that it should be her dd's turn to be with her mum.

I know she can't be in two places at once, but that is what she is trying to do.

DSis sons have surely had their mother to themselves for years now, she hasn't "had a life" at all.

simply working fulltime to support herself, then DS1's wife constantly checking when she is home and sends her 3 dc to see "nanny", even when nanny is ill or tired.

I have spent many hours of phone calls over the years hearing how DSis has been browbeaten and taken advantage of and used for childcare when she is almost dead on her feet.

it's like DSis(getting the hang of it now) is afraid to say the little word ...no...

she is a nurse and works odd shifts, but at her age finds it hard going.

her x husband dragged her kicking and screaming all over the world, she had no say in it, as he is a very dominate person.

just hoping we can help her before it's too late.

Hope you don't mind me pointing it out - it's a bit like having a dob of cream on your chin, you'd want someone to tell you!
Sounds like your mum is in a bit of FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) around your DB/SIL, which usually indicates an unequal 'power balance' in the relationship - easy to see, but hard for the person in it to extricate themselves. Can she see that her DS and family have had their turn (and not treated her well by the sound of it) and it's quite right and proper that she should have some time in the UK now?

Sorry - Dsis not mum!

Personally, I don't think the UK will be the utopia you and your DSis hopes it will be. It's the 'Answer to my unhappiness' fantasy that she has clung to for a very long time and it's probably going to be a massive disappointment because its been assigned such a huge responsibility (the fear of it not being the answer could be the reason that she has procranated for so long about returning). As frustrating and difficult as staying abroad was, that was then, not now.

Your sister is either depressed, which has made it extremely difficult for her to recognise that she isn't helpless. Or, has a victim/ martyr complex (sacrificing her 'happiness' because her adult children supposedly need her), which has become an obstacle to her from taking responsibility.

OP you sound very caring and supportive but it isn't the lack of opportunities that's keeping your sister stuck. Encourage your sister to seek out counseling because It will be difficult for her to accept solutions, when currently she is part of the problem.

My DM is from another country, happily she likes it here. However her image of her original country is coloured by childhood memories - she describes it as a kind of utopia.

Now the country she's from is very nice and is very popular to live in but she was shocked to find out it had crime, racism, poverty etc a few years ago. We've now agreed that it is nice there but maybe isn't the place she remembers.

The 'rose-tinted thing' is suspect is a good thing for your sister.

GoodArvo is correct - your sister would be entitled to no benefits at all for 3 months on arrival to the UK. I don't think people appreciate that the rules against 'foreigners coming here and claiming benefits' apply to expats as well.

And I think Isetan has nailed as well. Either your sister is depressed and should get treated or 'I hate this country and I'm staying for my family because I'm so caring/love them so much' has become an intrinsic part of her life story. She doesn't seem able to say no to people, first her husband and then her DS even though it's making her miserable.

She definitely doesn't need to stay in the same country as the children are adults but needs to do sums about if she can afford to return. Would she plan on working as a nurse still and would her qualification be accepted?

Either way I'd suggest she gets counselling as returning to the UK (which I think is prob the best solution) will still be tough.

I did a big move a couple of years ago, and for a whole beforehand I was quite scared. Then somebody said to me 'If it doesn't work out you can always come back'. That's so obvious, but before she'd said it I had somehow had this all or nothing approach. Since she no longer has a controlling DH she will be able to do just that if she changes her mind.

Poor woman, she's been beaten down for so long she is in a massive confusion about the obvious. Which is (imo!) that she should come home, do the Freedom Programme, smooth her feathers after so long of being dragged here and there - and eventually dumped to make way for her replacement

It's irrelevant whether blighty has changed beyond recognition, it's where she wants - and needs imo - to be. 'Forget' DS1, he's up to his neck with a narcissist and there's no amount of hanging around and hoping that is going to even touch the sides with that: he has to reach his own conclusions about his wife. (No surprise that he's continued the family trend and married a narcissist, as you did...)

She can always visit for longish periods (if she can bear to go back to the scene of the crime). She's ok financially by the sound of things, otherwise she'd really be up shit creek. As it is she has a lot of choice, only she probably can't see that because she's been controlled and dominated for so long. She has an awful lot on her side and could live anywhere she wants.