dear sister is 61 but distraught...

[gottasortit]

i'll try to keep it as short as I can.

DS, a bit older than me has had a difficult life (orphaned as a young child).

many years ago, her now x husband wanted to move/work abroad.

her 2 son's grew up and married abroad in the same area.

her dh at the time promised her that if she didn't settle they would come back to the UK.

she disliked the place on contact, I agree, I would hate to spend the rest of my life there.

her DH worked hard, but managed to travel all over the world with his job, and enjoyed his life totally.

each time ds said she wanted to come back to the uk, he would persuade her, try for another 3/5 years etc,
ds suffered depression from the longing to come home and be with family here.

her dc's are settled and happy there, it is the only home they have ever really known.

DS and her DH are now divorced as he met a new partner who is happy living there, so all good for him.
he has a new partner, his 2 adult sons, and 4 grandchildren.

if my DS came back to the uk now, it would mean leaving her children and gc behind.

my questions is this.

is it worth leaving 30 years of your life behind, and family, to return to her dreams of the uk.
DS is adamant she won't "die in the crappy place", but has her future been drawn out for her.

stay with her children where she doesn't want to be,
or,
leave it all behind???

sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees.

each time she talks to me, it's like another cut in my heart hearing her unhappiness

thank you all...
I agree with so much.

yes, it is "blighty" where she wants to be, ...to die here... she has often said.
yes, financially she would be okay, and even has choices.

but after so long "keeping quiet" I finally ,briefly told her ds2 that his mother has spent years in misery and turmoil.
his response was that dsis is ok.

since then dsis has been silent, I think she is so angry with me that she won't answer her phone now.
now I am worried that she won't feel that when she is in turmoil- as she always is- she won't turn to me to offload.

I don't know, I just wish I had kept my mouth shut, but after all the misery she has endured year after year...telling me each time...I thought it would help her to make her life changing decisions.

there is nothing in it for me, but her ds' maybe want her to stay as they always use her for their own convenience.
I dunno, should have kept big gob shut.

There are some complex dynamics at play here, aren't there? So Dsis wants to be able to offload her angst and turmoil, and your role is just to suck it up, not make any comment about how it appears to you? Do you really think DN2 was unaware of how his DM was feeling? It seems unlikely - but your Dsis' reaction indicates how deeply enmeshed she is.

Hopefully her state of high dudgeon will subside and she'll be ready to talk (constructively) to you again. She's the one who will have to do the work to make change happen, though - hand-wringing and 'woe is me' won't cut it.

Well you only have one life - she is 61 so has another 20 years of good health and activity (hopefully).

So the answer is that she does what SHE wants.

The only complication is finance. She needs a home in the UK, and to be able to visit the other DCs for a couple of months a year (winter when it is miserable here). This is the situation for many older people with DCs abroad (Australia, USA, Middle East), you visit them each year.

Everyone is happy.

But her reaction to your 'help' suggests she is frightened to actually make the move, and I can understand that. If you have blamed a situation beyond your control for all your problems for years and years, when the time comes to actually solve it you get cold feet. What if it was her and not the situation which depressed her for so long?

Well there is only one way for her to find out.

If you have blamed a situation beyond your control for all your problems for years and years, when the time comes to actually solve it you get cold feet. What if it was her and not the situation which depressed her for so long?

this

You may not have a clear picture of whats really going on in your sisters life, you have the edited highlights and your Dn likewise, might be getting a completely different story from his mum. Is she really waiting for permission from her children to return home and if so, would she actually leave?

Your part in this dynamic is the goto person she offloads to and who feels sorry for her, given her response, your role isn't to intervene. When she's ready, she will contact you but for your own sanity you have to disengage from the "I'll die in this crappy place" defeatist talk.

It isn't a lack of options but the willingness to change thats keeping your sister stuck, the very thing that you can't influence.

I hate to say this, but your sister is showing all the signs of being a victim. Now, I think the term 'victim' gets a bad press - it is possible to be a victim, of course, without buying into the whole thing ie entrenched powerlessness. But that entrenched powerlessness, learned helplessness, is the definition of the derogatory term 'don't be a victim ' and your sister is showing all the signs that she does indeed feel powerless and helpless on the deepest level. Not surprising with all she's been through.

My sister similarly used to bleet and bleet about her alcoholic husband. It was only topic of conversation and I gradually realised she didn't want it to change, not really; she just wanted to complain and have me (anyone, actually) enabling her. I made the huge 'mistake' of, in passing, referring to her husband's alcoholism - all hell broke loose. She was deeply offended and angry, but in my mind this is what we had been talking about at great length for many years. I just didn't realise that the word 'alcoholic' had never been used in all that time.

Some people don't want to be helped OP, don't really want to get out. It's a kind of addiction and will suck anyone dry who comes alongside to help and support. Some people don't really want to get free, ultimately make the decision that they prefer the pit they're in to the huge effort, on every level, of getting out of it. Do you think your sister is one of those people? Ultimately, people have to 'bottom out' - usually when the pain becomes too unbearable - and, until then, there's not much you can do. If you step away you are accused of being heartless, abandoning them in their hour of need - the fact that you've been alongside for years seems to count for nothing (which I suppose is a big indicator that the person who is suffering doesn't really want to get out).

(Sorry that was longwinded.)

do you know, she could be like an older woman I know in our town. She had her 4 DGC for childcare, and gosh ,it was such hard work for her! She loved them, of course, but not getting any younger, my knees are so sore, trying to run around after them, their mother (my daughter in law) needs to work and they can't afford the childcare, so I've got to look after them, I really wish I didn't...

And repeat, and the other SAHMs made soothing noises, and the other grannies thought it was terrible her DIL took such liberties.

And then someone told the DIL. Who took action, booked the older three into before and after school clubs and the youngest into nursery.

Now, apparently, granny is so upset, that bitch has taken the children away, she loved spending time with them, and she's decided I'm not good enough... and repeat.

Basically, she just wanted to moan, and enjoyed her position as the 'poor down trodden granny', to her DS and DIL, she never said a thing negative, she wanted those DGC every day and was gutted when the DIL realised what she'd been saying so made other childcare arrangements.

It could well be that if you are only hearing her moan, you are missing seeing her really happy. Seeing her love spending time with the DGC 'who are dumped on her', seeing her loving being close to her DSs and her DILs. Has a wide circle of friends and activities she's never mentioned to you. That she moans about them, but really, she loves her life.

From the sound of it, she's been able to move for years, yet has put it off and off and her son doesn't think she's depressed at all. He could be heartless, or she could be a world class actress round her boy, or it could be that she's really rather settled.

I agree with all the latest posts. Your Dsis sounds like a prisoner of her own device and she looks to you to enable her.

I lived in an exotic location for over a decade. It took me years to pluck up the courage to move back to the UK even although I knew in my heart that this was the place that I wanted my DC to grow up. I moved back a few years ago now and I can honestly say that I've never looked back. There really is no where like home.

I hope that your sister eventually finds the courage to move back. I can't imagine how difficult this decision must be for her, leaving some of her family behind. I wish her luck

Mary my mum did that, she was helping me look after dd some years ago but in an argument told me it meant she was putting her own life on hold. I got dd into after school and she hit the roof that she had been made redundant.

More pertinently to this thread, she has been unhappily married to my dad, apparently he screwed up her life, for 40 years. When the children have left home long ago, she is still there. I have given up trying to work it out, or on being in any way involved, for that matter.

It could be that she's paralysed by fear - she wouldn't be the first. When she comes to blighty for a good long stretch (perhaps renting to give it a go here) and settles down a bit, she could read Feel the Fear and Do It Anyway (Susan Forward, I think). It hasn't been a bestseller for decades for nothing.

I also think that being away from an abuser, out of their orbit, in itself significantly lessens the psychological hold they have over you. She's on his patch and he is very probably still calling all the shots - getting away from him could be the break she needs to start chipping away at the decades of fear and powerlessness that have built up and are threatening to stranle her. It really is no big deal to come over here for a while (months) and see how she feels then. She doesn't have to do it all in one chunk, she can do it in stages and see how she feels at each stage.

Here's the book it's by Susan Jeffers.

Perhaps you could order it and send it to her (if that's not being too enabling..!). If she reads it, or at least tries to read it, perhaps that could give you an indication of where she's at, how serious she is about taking responsibility for her situation. If she makes no attempt to read it, well, that says a lot.

thank you for your replies.

it's odd, but for years now my dh has been saying that dsis plays the "victim" card,

always a massive problem in her life, it explodes , then is never heard of again.
it's almost that she thrives on dramas.
dsis says she has always felt powerless, but now she is in the position to do something about it, makes her excuses and says she will have to "wait a bit longer"

yes, I have been alongside for years, listening, being afraid that the latest drama is very very serious, but has dsis being crying wolf .
thank you again, 10 years ago I gave dsis feel the fear, but it didn't make a difference.

I will just have to try to take a step at a time, and wait for the next instalment of her traumatic tumultuous life.

the bottom line is that she could move back to the uk within a few months, but as you say, after being powerless for so long, still feels that way.

I think re fear, the pertinent question would be what is she afraid of. Only once she unlocks that, will she be able to move.

Sometimes the fear can be invisible, it is not threat of violence necessarily, but something where perceived negative consequences of acting (in this case by leaving) outweigh the benefits of leaving. I don't necessarily mean she is scared of the unknown, I don't think she is, but she is scared of what she knows, that is, something that will happen if she does leave. It is either that or she is simply someone who is stuck in their self-perception of suffering.

Not sure if that helps. I have not read the book, does it help you identify the invisible fears? Your dsis will know, somewhere inside her, why she will not leave, despite everything she says. And it is only once she recognises and addresses that, that she will be able to look at leaving seriously.

Oh dear, it sounds like your DH and her DS are right. Rather than change and get on with it, it does sound like she enjoys telling you how terrible something is and so getting lots of support from you as you rush round trying to find solutions for her.

Unfortunately she isn't really interested in solving the problem as the problem is providing her with something - drama, interest, attention - that is worth more to her than the solution. This is called 'secondary gain' - the benefit from remaining stuck.

I don't think she is as powerless in this situation as you think. Although her situation to an outsider doesn't look pleasant, something about it clearly works for her and she got very upset when you got too close to changing it by talking to her DS.

I don't think she is going to move back any time soon but clearly she wants to keep you on the edge of your seat about it. I'd be interested to know how awful the DIL really is as well and how much her adult sons really take advantage of her and how much she just does for them anyway (and moans about to you even though it was her idea in the first place).

Your DH seems to have her sussed. I'd suggest in the next tumult you try to take a less active role in her drama.

She may be being a 'victim', or she may not. I suppose with stuff like this it isn't necessarily black and white - there may be an element of the 'victim' but there may also be other things. It's impossible to tell.

You say her DS said she's fine - well, my kids think I'm fine when I'm not, because I don't put it on them and have my own support networks I share with. Perhaps your sister is doing the same. She may be angry that you let the cat out of the bag to DN when she has been covering up. Just a thought - though, again, it's impossible to really know exactly what's going on with people imo, even people we know really well.

What you can know about, and have unlimited access to, is yourself. Is she running you ragged? Perhaps look at ways to protect yourself if so. Kindness can cost a great deal and it can be dispiriting and exhausting when it goes absolutely nowhere. But I wouldn't be drawing a solid conclusion about her; best not to decide one way or the other, just decide about yourself.

thank you for your replies, they are really helpful.

as dsis DH now x... was basically an absent parent-always flying to exotic places..with work...dsis felt she was the matriarch.

but, once ds married and had children, dil became, of course the matriarch of her own family, dsis felt that she had been made redundant.

each time she looked after the dgc, she would say dil was lazy etc.
but, yes, I hear you -marywestmacott- maybe this is what has been happening with dsis.

so now there have been arguments and rivalry between dsis and dil, virtually nc, dsis is feeling alone and blames everything and everyone, also the faraway place she was forced to live for so long for her present unhappiness.

when I spoke briefly to dn about his mother, he was surprised and said she would never come back to the uk.
I dunno, just going round in circles now..