ex again

[bibliomania]

Okay, is this some kind of record - we got our final order regarding dd's living arrangements last week, after two bloody years in court. This evening he is threatening to take me to court again.

The reason - Father's Day falls on my weekend. He asked me if he could have her for lunch. I said no - he has her the next day for an overnight stay anyway. A couple of days ago, he ruled out swapping weekends so I can take her to my brother's wedding, so I said we can either both be flexible or we can both stick to the court order, but he can't have all the flexibility he wants and deny it to me (believe me, he has form). Cue threats to march down to the courthouse tomorrow unless I give in.

The annoying thing is that I was actually already considering giving way for dd's sake. I don't want to get bogged down in petty tit for tat, and I think she would quite like to go to father's day lunch. But if I say that now, it'll look like I'm caving in to his threats of more court and he'll be delighted he's got this rod to beat me with.

Unsurprisingly, he's the usual package of abusive/controlling/dominating. But that said, he does have a decent relationship with dd, which I have always supported, though he would of course deny that entirely.

I'm sure he'll go to the courthouse, and will probably be told to go to mediation, and I don't want to be dragged back there again (if for no other reason, I resent having to take time off work). It's just the sheer relentlessness of it. Seriously, a court order on Thursday, and this again by Tuesday.

No, you're doing the right thing.

Perhaps explain to him again that if he wants flexibility, he gives flexibility. Why not? It would be nice for DD to be with her dad on Fathers Day. It would also be nice for her to go to her uncle's wedding, but the sad she's supposed to want to celebrate this weekend wants her to miss out on that.

Ironic, no?

the dad she's supposed to be celebrating...

Believe me, Bruno, I've tried to reason with him so many times. He just will not listen to any logic other than his own. His view is that he is more important than an uncle, so of course he should get the time but that doesn't mean dd should go to her uncle's wedding.

And the thing was, I was willing to accept that and let it go. I'm doing my utmost to avoid conflict. My inclination is to accept that she won't get to the wedding and even agree to father's day lunch, but I know the more concessions I make, the more he'll demand and he's going to keep using this sodding threat of legal action.

I'm bruised by the fact that the judge refused to do into any factfinding or go into "details", although the "details" showed that all ex's allegations about me blocking contact were simply not true. We were lectured by the judge about cooperating, which ex is interpreting as me needing to do everything he says.

Why don't you put in writing (text or email) to him that you are happy to swap Father's day for your brother's wedding?

If he starts arguing simply repeat that.

That way you can show that you are being flexible and thinking of your DD but he is being a dick.

Great minds think alike, magoria. I have emailed and said I'm quite happy to either:
a) be flexible, so dd gets to both events
or
b) stick to the order.
He can choose which approach we go for, but he can't have both as and when it suits him.

It's entirely possible he might agree to the swap now and recant later, but one thing at a time.

So he emailed back denying any link between the two - Father's Day is special, a wedding is not (although you'd expect weddings to come around rather less often than Father's Day).

What to do, oh wise Mumsnetters? It doesn't need to be a hill to die on - dd would quite like to go to lunch with him, and I don't want to make such a big deal out of it. But if I "give in" as he sees it, it just defers the battle to the next time. It's like giving in to a tantrumming child. It's not such a big deal to give them the smarties this time, but you know you'll have another tantrum on your hands before long.

Just repeat the offer ad infinitum and don't engage with his reasoning.

He can take it or leave it.

And Father's Day is a made-up "celebration". It is certainly NOT more important than her uncle's wedding. But as I said, don't even bother engaging with this.

Do NOT give in now - he will take it as a green light to be even more ridiculous and unreasonable in the future.

Ignore him. If fathers day was so important he would have dealt with it in the order. Just ignore.
He won't get a hearing listed before Friday.

Mine is the same. He lost residency, the contact order was made watertight and he still wanted it amended after 3 weeks. He got sent away from court with his tail firmly between his legs.

It's the fight and the reactions that these men thrive on. Don't give him eithet.
Email to say that 'Contact is as per the contact order'

And don't engage.

Thanks for the quick responses. The thing is, dd is with her father overnight on Monday (which also happens to be his birthday) so I don't feel that she's being that deprived.

She'll be fine OP.
With a father who wants to dick about like this, you need to be the one who is clear and consistent about what is happening. My kids will often be confused because 'daddy says x or y is happening' ( when it clearly isn't) and they look to me for clarity and reassurance.

Next time he points out that Father's Day is 'special' you could point out that it happens every year, whilst your brother's wedding (which I'm sure your DD would also like to attend) is only going to happen once (and miss 'providing he has chosen a better partner than you').

He can have Father's day if you can have the wedding day - flexibility should go both ways, but if he doesn't want any flexibility, you'll abide by that too.

Thanks, Acti. DD is 6 and already knows that her father says things for effect rather than because they are true. I hope maybe it will stand to her and she'll have a nose for bullshit all her life.

He just won't accept that logic, mistle. He honestly can't be reasoned with. I've watched mediators/solicitors/social workers all try to reason with him at various stages, and it's quite comic to see the same glazed look on their faces as they try to process the arguments he comes out with.

I'm resigned about the wedding. It's a shame because dd loves my brother and his fiancee, and their ds is her only cousin (she has no siblings). But she'll see them during the summer anyway, so that's something.

'DD would love to go to her uncle's wedding, which (unlike Fathers Day) is a once in a lifetime family event.

When our family are together, talking about the event, looking at the photos, now and in the future when she is a lot older, it's always going to be 'Oh, DD wasn't there. Her dad wouldn't let her go.'

How do you think she will feel about that? How do you think that will make her feel about YOU? Affectionate? Loving? Respectful?

Fathers Day isn't in the contact order. So it's a case of goodwill between us. You won't afford me any goodwill - so why should I for you?

Before you say, ahh, but it's for DD's good - stop, and read the beginning of this message again. I'd be a lot more inclined to agree that Fathers Day is an important celebration for our daughter if that father was able to put her feelings before his. From what I've seen of this situation, that's not the case.

In fact, it's so clearly unreasonable and nasty of you to refuse to facilitate DD being able to be at the wedding, that it seems to me to be far more important to make a stand and simply say no to you. For DD's good.

If this refusal means that in future you might be able to learn - just like a tantrumming toddler - that you only get if you are willing to give - then it will be worth it for DD's sake.

So I repeat: if you want to swap contact so that DD does not miss out on either important family event then I am pleased to accommodate you.

Go back to court if you want, because I will also be more than pleased to explain this to the Judge.

You are a disgraceful father.'

----

Send him that, maybe without the last sentence

Send him that.

Brilliant message Bruno!

I like it, Bruno. The only thing is that it opens the door to lengthy speeches from him about goodwill. I think I'm better off being a boring old broken record.

The thing is he hates my family - he is extremely jealous of them and thinks it would be "fairer" for dd not to have contact with them, given the limited contact he has with his own family.

Yes, yes, send that. Then refuse to engage in the debate any further and just repeat the third to last sentence ad infinitum. "If you want to swap...."

X-post. God he really couldn't give a fig about DD's best interests at all, could he.

Fairer to whom exactly? Has he explained?

Bibliomania - the positive thing about sending it is that you could prove to the Judge that you were being completely and utterly fair with showing just a single email.

This is what I sent him yesterday:

Dear [ex],

Last week, when I asked about swapping a weekend so I could
take [DD] to a family wedding, you replied: "I currently don't feel like swapping and really prefer to keep it simple and avoid talking about a swap one day after we agreed at the court.....Lets respect [dd]'s time with each other and manage our extra time needs accordingly."

I am very happy to take either of the following options:

a) we are flexible about operating the court order.
[DD] can have lunch with you on Father's Day; we arrange to
swap a weekend in October for a family wedding

OR

b) we do as you suggest above, ie. we respect [DD]'s scheduled
time with each other and not make other arrangements during those times.

Really, either option is absolutely fine with me - you just let me know which you want. It is not possible, however, to swing backwards and forwards between the two positions based entirely on what you want at any given moment.

[Bibliomania]

Oh dollius, for him dd's best interests always means exactly what suits him.

I think you should just tell him that there'll be no flexibility at all, and you'll be sticking to the court order. Father's day is this weekend. The wedding isn't until October - he is going to change his mind/conveniently 'forget' the arrangement well before then.

No point in trying to reason with an unreasonable person. They'll just have to go out for a belated Father's day lunch.

DD says they already had a Father's Day lunch last weekend anyway.

It's frustrating because he's forcing me to be someone I'm not - I'd rather be all about give-and-take, but it ends up being all me giving and all him taking and it just makes things harder rather than easier.

I completely understand wanting to be give-and-take, because I'm like that. But there comes a time when you have to put your foot down and stop all the giving. If you give in now, he'll have the control as it were - or at least he'll think he has.

Make things easier for yourself and just say no.