Settle this argument between me and DH, and I think I am right. (Drink related)

[Etah]

Long, don't want to drip feed.

I was walking at the high street yesterday at around 6:30, wondering if Dh was already at home since he was on a single shift, and thinking about giving him a call, when he popped out of a pub with a new work mate.

Dh has been raving about this work mate a lot lately. Dh was specially chosen to work with this guy who apparently is very respected in the field and could help him a lot in his career. Before this guy Dh was very much unhappy with his work place ad other colleagues. I used to work there and I know how shit everything is. Now, Dh has a new role with this guy supervising and teaching him, so he is happy and enthusiastic again.

So Dh introduces me to work mate and asks me what I am up to. I explain I am on my way to pick up Dd from her activity. Dh than says:
_OK, we are on our way to another pub to have one final pint and I will then go home. See you later at home.
I probably made a face because work mate said to Dh something along the lines:
_No, stay with your wife and I see you tomorrow...

So Dh came with me, he asked me if I wanted to go for a drink? I said no, I was fine, we sat and waited for half an hour before the activity finished.
We went home but Dh made sure to stop at a shop and buy a couple of beers to drink at home too.

At home, we cooked a quick dinner and ate together and than together started to help Dd with her school project.
He was trying to help too much and didn't understand that she is supposed to do as much as she can on her own.
If I let him give her so many ideas and (like always) go off topic talking about a lot of other things that are not exactly relevant to that particular moment, the whole thing would take ages to get finished and it was already 9pm. I was getting stressed already because I am the one to deal with a tired child who doesn't want to wake up following morning. Even when Dd goes to bed at 7pm she has troubles waking up.

Anyway, the atmosphere changed very quickly with Dh taking everything I say very personal and being unreasonable with not understanding he was slowing the whole thing down as much as he wanted to help, he wasn't being helpful.

And I am sure that if he was 100% sober things would be easier as he gets really awkward sometimes if he is drinking

So I got really annoyed and told him (away from Dd after finally convincing him to let her get on with her work) that I was not happy with his attitude earlier on and it shouldn't take a work mate to tell him he should have come with me to pick up Dd and go home. It should happens naturally and be his idea. He thinks it is normal, he had already had that plan with his work mate and didn't want to let him down. When work mate said it was fine not to go to a final pint, he said he was happy to come with me (and he was tbh).

So, after putting Dd to bed, we had a bid row. Me complaining that I fear he has a drinking problem and he is doing nothing to solve this and he saying I get too stressed to quickly and don't appreciate anything positive he does.
BTW he acknowledges he may have a drinking problem but he is in control.
I tell him he is in denial and every alcoholic thinks the same way he thinks right now.

Back story is:
In the past his drinking was awful and it has got better but it is still too much for my liking. But I don't know if I am letting my bad experiences with parents who are heavy drinkers cloud my judgement.

He has the right to drink and go to the pub of course. I just don't want to be anxious every time that I know he is drinking out of the home.
Also all the spending. I just can't understand.

So, was I expecting too much? I just wanted him to want to come home when he saw me instead of his mate having to tell him.
Or even better, I just wanted him to come home straight after work anyway. Today he is on a double shift and will not see Dd. So why he doesn't just come home instead of the pub to spend as much time as he possibly can with her?

Am I asking too much?

How often would he go to the pub straight after work? When you said his drinking was awful in the past.... what did that look like? And when you say it's better now is that simply in comparison to 'awful' or do you mean he is a moderate/infrequent drinker?

I sympathise having had a 'few pints after work' man in my life at one stage. He was also unpleasant (rather than aggressive) and unhelpful after having a few and also claimed he was in control when he really wasn't. Turned a car over and lost his licence on one occasion when he was supposedly in control. I don't know if this applies to your DH but the people my ex went out with after work.... and he also thought it was great networking and he was sparkling company .... just thought he was a pisshead & a tosser. I wouldn't mind betting that his new colleague with the 'go home with your wife' remark thinks something similar and his career will not blossom.

Depressing watching it in action.

In the past there were times he would go a lot. 4 days out of 5 working days.

Now not as much, maybe 2 times, but will not get as drunk as he used to.

He doesn't even get tipsy at all most of the times but I can tell from miles when he has had a drink and I don't like it as I like him when he is sober. He is not aggressive either sober or after drinks, but yes can be unpleasant and passive aggressive specially because he will take things I say out of context, exaggerate and being defensive as he know well I don't like when he is drinking.

Also is very boring as the things he talks about when he had one too many are so repetitive and shallow.

However, when he has few beers at home on his day off or when he comes straight after work, it is all right.
It is weird but is so different when he drinks at the pub and when he drinks at home.

Sometimes they (all the work people) even get drinks in at work to have some once the shift is finished. It is the nature of his career apparently, people drink a lot (catering).
Also he claims this is part of British Culture.

Anyway, he doesn't have many friends and he doesn't like many of his work mates and he goes drinking with them because there is no one else.

Apparently this new work mate is different and is someone who he can see being friends with.

Yes corgito but apparently, the guy wanted to go home and Dh was pushing for one last pint, hence walking with the guy to the station and having another pint in another pub. I am inclined to think that this was H's idea. God knows what the guy thinks about him and if he will really help Dh in his career.

It really depends on how often he drinks now. Cos on the one hand you say you don't mind him going to the pub, but on the other you clearly do. He didn't go on a bender, it was only 6.30 when you met him and he was pretty willing to go home. Sure, he would rather have had another with a brand new colleague he thinks is the bees knees (which I think is fairly normal), but he wasn't too put out. He was happy to sit for half an hour to watch your DC, and buying a couple of beers at 7pm is not in itself a red flag. So it doesn't sound like he was objecting to coming home at all.

It does sound like you were highly wound up from the moment you met him at 6.30, and after that he could do nothing right. You admit yourself it was because he should have dropped everything as soon as he saw you. But it isn't clear from your post what his drinking is like currently, so its hard to say if you were justified.

Put it this way, if his history is completely resolved now, then I think you might have ovverreacted. However if his drinking is still a big worry on a weekly basis, then you did not.

OK, people do drink a lot in catering - it's very much part of the culture. That doesn't mean it's OK though and I suspect from what you say that the nights he's going to the pub after work he's had a couple of drinks at work or is double-dipping at the pub (ie, go to the bar, order a round plus a vodka for him, neck vodka, take pints back to table. I used to work with someone like this and it took me years to work out how he was drinking the same amount as the rest of us but getting massively drunker).

That all said, I think you are focusing on the little things: you should have come home with me, you didn't help DD with her project in the way that I would. What actually needs to be confronted is his relationship with alcohol. Either you're OK with it - in which case you have to suck up some things that annoy you. Or you're not, in which case he has to change dramatically or you have to leave.

Fudging it (oh, I'm ok with you drinking to this level in these circumstances but not that much in those circumstances) isn't doing either of you any good.

The new guy will end up thinking he's a twat, if he hasn't worked it out already. You know he's boring, defensive, unpleasant and passive aggressive etc and it sounds like so do the people he works with. So there's a common denominator and he doesn't have to be a full-on alcoholic to be a crappy drunk. British Culture is all about drinking but it's not compulsory in this case, just a convenient excuse not to change. Until he wakes up and realises that he can't afford to drink anything at all he'll simply be written off as an arse, he'll get nowhere in his career (but he'll blame everyone for being 'out to get him'), and there's nothing you can usefully do about it.

Yes the messages are very mixed.

He can drink at home no problem but if he has just one or two in the pub where he doesn't even get tipsy then you get pissed off and he gets passive agressive. No wonder, he doesn't understand the rules.

Then you hate him even having any drink in the pub as you like him when he is sober. But when he has a few beers in the house he's fine.

Honestly, I'm confused. Yes, your relationships with your parents might be fudging the issue. Cos I'm not sure this guy actually has a drinking problem anymore.

Please figure out what you want from him as regards drinking. I suspect you would like him to be teetotal, but if he is just a normal bloke with a fairly normal social life for that environment then it might be a bit controlling to want that.

Either way i think the messages are mixed.

So I was overreacting about wanting him to drop everything and his work mate when he saw me? What is hard for me to accept is that he was coming out of a pub and he had drinks there already WHY on earth go to another pub to have one final drink. This to me is so ridiculous and indulgent. We are not rolling in money, why does he have to spend too much on drinking? Maybe I am too savvy, I would just buy a lot of drinks from Lidl or Asda and drink at home.

I say that I understand he has the right to go to the pub sometimes. But if I had my way, he wouldn't go, unless is a occasion. I don't agree with the notion of popping for a pint after work. But this is just me.

When I do a few shifts in catering I too drink a bit afterward in the premises. I don't need to go to a pub with work colleagues I have been working with the whole day. But maybe my work colleagues are like me, more family orientated and just want to go home.

I think he drinks every day. Sometimes more sometimes less. Sometimes in and sometimes out.
He doesn't drink first thing in the morning or during work.
When he has a day off he stays in and drinks in. If he doesn't have beer in he will go out and buy but will not go to the pub on his day off. Just after work.

I don't know how much he is drinking atm but seems a lot less than before.

If he goes to the pub, he will carry on drinking at home.
So if he drinks at home, he will drink a lot less.
Many times he leaves half full cans because he falls sleep. This is a huge unnecessary wast too.

It does sound like you were highly wound up from the moment you met him at 6.30
I was pleased to meet him however it was when he said he would carry on with his plans that got me disappointed. I wish the idea to come with me was his not his mate's.

Etah,

The 3cs re alcoholism:-

You did not cause it
You cannot control it
You cannot cure it

Your H is in denial and comes out with the same old tired excuses re culture and work. Alcoholism cuts across all classes and creeds; it is truly no respecter of persons and if he was doing any job he'd still drink.

If he has a drink problem then he should not be drinking at all!. He would not like that and no he is not in control at all. Alcohol is truly a cruel mistress and he is still very much mired in denial.

You on some level likely feel very responsible for him. I think your own experiences with your parents heavy drinking also led you to marry someone also with a drink problem, you sound resigned to it all because he keeps on telling you that no, he does not have a problem. I think you are as caught up in his alcoholism as he is albeit in different ways. You are playing out both codependent and enabling roles in his alcoholism.

What do you think his own primary relationship is with?. Its actually with drink, its not you or your DD. His main concern last night was where the next drink was coming from and wanted his new found friend to stay with him.

What do you think your DD is learning from the two of you about relationships here?. What do you want to teach her?. Same as you learnt?.

You learnt more than your fair share of stuff about your parents heavy drinking as a child; she is learning the same as you did and could go on herself to choose a drinker for a partner as an adult. Please do not do that to her.

Contacting Al-anon for yourself could well help you now. 020 7403 0888.

I also (& pls forgive this) suspect the new guy was not telling him to go home at 6.30 cos he somehow sniffed out all the weaknesses you consider DH to have, but because he just met this man's wife (who you admit made a face) when another pint was suggested. He clocked the face, and duly backed off.

In other words he might have suggested it cos DH has an uptight wife. Again, sorry, just thinking about all the possible aspects to his reaction - I wasn't there obvs.

Etah Only you can decide if you think he is an alcoholic or not - not a bunch of strangers on the Internet. The level you are talking about does not scream "alcoholic" to me, but I've never met him.

If you think he is an alcoholic, then he plainly has to be 100% teetotal.

If you think he is not, then you need to have a proper sit down to discuss what level of compromise you can come to as a couple.

I think you think he has a problem. From what you've written, I don't disagree, but I'm not an expert. What's causing you this stress though is trying to control his problem by putting conditions round it.

So you don't mind him going to the pub, but you do really.
You don't mind him drinking at home, as long as he doesn't spend to much.
etc etc - you are in an uncontrolled situation, you hate it, and you are spending all your energy trying to set up conditions and controls.

It won't work. It will exhaust you and damage your relationship. You cannot control his drinking.

All you can control is your reaction to it.

Yes I think the message I am sending is mixed.

I just want to respect his right to drink but I do get anxious and will not trust 100% on his ability to find the balance and not get drunk.

If/when he gets drunk or just went slightly over a safe limit for me to be happy, than we have problems because I don't want to listen to his bullshit, his language is crass as though as he is in the pub with mates, his voice and facial expressions change, his brain doesn't function properly. I get frustrated, annoyed, disrespectful and disappointed.
There will be no physical closeness as I don't want alcohol and cigarette breath close to me and definitely no sex.
So things go down hill.

Yesterday he decided to chat with another parent whilst we were waiting for the activity to finish. All I could think was: God, please don't let him talk shit and don't let them smell his alcohol breath. I feel embarrassed.

BTW I take full responsibility for making the school project last minute. It was circumstances as it involved a lot of photos taken in certain landmarks and I just couldn't take the photos before Saturday and the printing boot thing wasn't working on Sunday. I should have tried harder to find another printing station on Sunday instead of going to the park.
And yes, I shouldn't have get stressed either but id Dh was sober I would be happier iykwim (but this is just me blaming him isn't it?)

As I said before, someone doesn't have to be an alcoholic to be an embarrassing drunk. I don't think you're giving out mixed messages at all. I think you're fighting shy of saying 'don't drink at all' because you believe he's a reasonable man and should be able to self-regulate and use his judgement so that he doesn't end up behaving like an arse. I know exactly what you mean about the facial expressions and the voice and the woolly brain function... but I think you have to have experienced it to understand.

Bottom line, he doesn't think it affects him. He believes he is totally in control. It's just a couple of pints after work.... what's the big deal? He thinks it's everyone else with an attitude problem and hasn't made the link between having a few pints and being a dickhead. That's his problem but, because you're married to it, it's become your problem.

You're not responsible for him and I'm afraid you can't change him. The only options are to endure or reject.

"I just want to respect his right to drink but I do get anxious and will not trust 100% on his ability to find the balance and not get drunk"

Respect his right to drink indeed; well he could drink if he was not an alcoholic but the fact remains he has a big problem with his drinking and you think he is alcoholic. You become embarrassed by him when he has drunk as well.

Anyone would become anxious but your relationship with him will and is affecting your DD. She is learning about relationships from the two of you, what lessons are you both teaching her?.

What do you get out of this relationship now?.

Why are you together?. Have you actually countenanced being apart?.

It sounds like you hate ALL drinking. And this sounds like a destructive cycle of him having a drink, and you punishing him and giving him the cold shoulder and the rolled eyes, and him getting very defensive cos he wasn't even pissed. And your marriage suffers.

But again, the whole aspect of this changes 180 degrees depending on whether you think he has a genuine drinking problem or not.

I suspect ALL drinking makes you bristle, but it may also be that he drinks at a low level too often. It would be interesting to know how many units he drinks per week. We all probably on occasion go over our units with the size of pub measures these days (and the size of the wine glasses in our cupboards!) but we probably don't drink double the units, you know?

What do you think his own primary relationship is with?. Its actually with drink, its not you or your DD. His main concern last night was where the next drink was coming from and wanted his new found friend to stay with him
That is why I took my rings off yesterday, gave it back to him and said fuck the vows, I won't waste my life with someone who outs alcohol above Dd and me. I had to put up with this as a child why will I put up with this as an adult?
However he is a much better parent than both my parents together ever were.

I also (& pls forgive this) suspect the new guy was not telling him to go home at 6.30 cos he somehow sniffed out all the weaknesses you consider DH to have, but because he just met this man's wife (who you admit made a face) when another pint was suggested. He clocked the face, and duly backed off. In other words he might have suggested it cos DH has an uptight wife. Again, sorry, just thinking about all the possible aspects to his reaction - I wasn't there obvs
The new guy doesn't know the back story.

Etah Only you can decide if you think he is an alcoholic or not - not a bunch of strangers on the Internet. The level you are talking about does not scream "alcoholic" to me, but I've never met him
I wish I could decide. I wish I could say 100% for sure and not assume anything.
He went to the doctors once, I am not sure if he answered every question honestly. The doctor couldn't tell if he had a drink problem so referred him to another place (wasn't AA) he never phoned the place to book an appointment and got rid of the letter. Now when H talks about it he says that the doctor said he does not have a drinking problem. I keep reminding him he never made the phone call to book another appointment on the other place. He conveniently forgets this.
He says he is willing to go to doctors again. Also because he feel that his health is in jeopardy because of his smoking.
I WILL GO WITH HIM JUST TO MAKE SURE THAT HE WILL TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT HIS DRINKING.

Love, with kindness, the school project isn't the issue. At all.

Thanks wilson
But he blamed me for letting the school project last minute. Not fair on DD and I agree.

Sorry I didn't mean to shout my last sentence. But I don't trust him to tell the truth to the doctor.
Will try and keep count os his units but it is hard as I am not in the pub or at work with him and won't trust him to tell me the exact amounts because he knows I have a problem with his drinking.
I asked him once to keep a book and count the units per day but he never did.

You don't have a problem with his drinking, you're not an 'uptight wife' and YANBU. He is an arse when he drinks and he doesn't think it's a big enough deal to take seriously. You find his behaviour after a few beers offensive but he doesn't think your feelings are a big enough deal to take seriously. There are no consequences to his actions so change is not on the radar.

"Will try and keep count of his units"

That way madness lies; you cannot control his drinking. That is one on the 3cs of alcoholism after all.

He cannot admit the truth of his drinking to himself even now so I would think he would not actually attend any GP appointment or will at the very least remain untruthful.

Please talk to Al-anon; they can and will help you. You cannot help him and besides which he does not want your "support" but you can certainly help your own self here.

My local Al-anon meets every Monday so I will try and go on the next one if H is at home.

I said I was going to keep count of his units as a guidance to check whatever he is an alcoholic or not.

It is sad things came to this.
He keeps comparing himself to alcoholics he knows and comes to the conclusion he isn't too bad...denial denial denial.

I agree with corgito. Even is he is not an alcoholic, he is an unpleasant drunk most of the times and I have to walk on egg shells and soothe my own anxiety when he is drinking so what is the point?
And yes, I don't agree with the money spending either, whilst I am trying to save. Alcohol is too expensive and he has been selfish in my opinion.

Dd's school fair coming up soon and I asked him if he wanted to volunteer in the BBQ. His first question was: Would I be able to have a beer whilst cooking the burgers??

Also I remember when we were just dating and on a day out I wanted some refreshments. I suggested we go to a coffee shop. His face was like I said to him lets eat shit.
Coffee shop? No. Pub of course.
Shouldn't have ignored this big red flag.
And yes I don't want Dd to go through the same.
Luckily for her, I drink with moderation maybe two times a month AND she knows that his drinking makes me sad so hopefully she will stir away from drinkers.

Of course he's an alcoholic.

Everything you're writing screams it.

"I said I was going to keep count of his units as a guidance to check whatever he is an alcoholic or not".

It will not work.

What anyway is your definition of an alcoholic?. They do not all drink every day, have vodka for breakfast and sit on park benches daily with a brown paper bag.

I would arrange alternative childcare and try and go to the next Al-anon meeting. If that is not at all possible then speak to them on the phone and read their literature. You need real life support as well.

Re this comment:-
"Luckily for her, I drink with moderation maybe two times a month AND she knows that his drinking makes me sad so hopefully she will stir away from drinkers"

How often did you see your parents drink when growing up and what did you learn from seeing all that?. You grew up with parental heavy drinking and you not altogether surprisingly went on to marry a problem drinker yourself. You probably heard not too dissimilar excuses and justifications from one or both of your parents as well.

Hoping your DD will stay away from problem drinkers is just that on your part. You are currently showing her that on some level his behaviours are acceptable to you. And what exactly is he teaching her about relationships?.