Multiple issues - help to untangle

[Chris2107]

Son dropped out of a last minute attempt at uni with depression, self harming and strong weed habit and lost all healthiness and put on 3 stone in weight in 1 term.
Hubby took redundancy 7 yrs ago and set up own business just at point we had agreed I go self employed contractor to allow me to work flexibly. His income dropped by 75% leaving me to work long hard contracts to make up income difference. We had agreed I contract and take a break due to a number of previous issues of his making that had resulted in depression for me then an affair by him in response. His redundancy has been used to fund his business - circa £100k invested and I earn good money but see v little of it due to family needs. I work long hours and hubby does 8 days a week wfh which means I pick up all domestic duties and every time my back turned any time day or night he is back in his office.
Just needed a new hip and lost contract as a result due to poor recovery. 19 yr old son stealing my strong pain killers and Valium ( never used before but needs must). Daughter a poppet at 17 doing AS levels. Her bf family going through huge issues and am trying to help. disabled mother 130 miles away and complex physical and mental issues and dad struggles to help. Can't drive due to hip to see them and when working its a strain but I manage to do visits and the SOS calls when there is a crisis.
Hubby just taken an expensive and 12 day holiday as he "needed a break" leaving me to deal with all of the looney son, hospital appts for me and him and read out his work emails to him. I was never asked if it was ok to go away and if we (ie my wages) could afford it - answers would have been no
Why am I sharing this?
Because I want reassurance that if I get cross and shout it's to be expected. I need better coping strategies (dh always been adrenalin junkie and we used to do more together). Even his best mate has criticised his behaviours which I want to cut down to stress.
But have retreated to spare room for a month and removed wedding bands. I am looking for a restatement of why we want to stay married as we did so initially after the affair for the kids sake and they are now 17 and 19 and with the financial burden on me for so long I feel so resentful I can't be kind or generous to him - even though my friends would characterise me by these traits. So I can't be kind to him anymore and resent him for making my behaviour towards him less kind than for anyone else. Can't detail the big bad issues which triggered my behaviour but they were bad bad bad and would have made for a v difficult divorce if revealed to the court - nothing perverted but just overly adventurous given age of kids
Did try Relate at one point 7 years ago but it was when he was having affair and I didn't know and he left the room and called mistress and told her everything we discussed so I find it hard to contemplate that route again.
But I am at the end of the line of confrontations which lead to a ceasefire but not real peace because inevitably he will do one more thing of great selfishness and I will lose my head. Married for 23 years.
I have just about enough insight to know he must be feeling bad too but am too involved to resolve any of it so suggestions please would be v welcome.
Signing off now as can smell drugs son is smoking - that's the university dropout one with clinical depression

Bibliomania - you asked if he makes my life happier in anyway - when he takes the time and engages with the kids he is good tho finds son too hard at the mo so tends to be closer to our DD who tend to run convos across the dinner table when I am trying to get son into conversation.
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He will come out on theatre & cinema trips. He did make lifts for the bed and sofa after my hip op - he's a practical engineer type so tends to be better at fixing things and will do this stuff for me e.g put up trellis in the garden. It's the emotional stuff and putting others ahead of himself that makes me unhappy. We can still laugh together, he will cuddle me even tho it's often cos he's upset me that I need a cuddle - and is very kind and patient with my parents. He used to joke that if we weren't together he would want to be adopted by them as they are kind and loving - unlike his own.

But the cycle of stuff goes on. Here's a year to date summary - ignoring all the other awful historic stuff.
On NYE he persuaded me to go to his sisters party 80 mins drive away - 2 weeks after hip op. It was a v uncomfortable ride for me. He Got v pissed so we couldn't leave til 8pm next day as they live rurally and it was NYD a taxi was not an option.. During the evening he, lost my camera which I had bought for my own birthday present and I had not been asked if he could take it. It's now April and he still has not replaced it
As pissed he spent most of night flirting with someone who when I got up out of bed at 3am to go and find him he was then with his sister who said this woman was a big flirt. I got out of bed because DD had come into room to tell me that she was worried dad was going to hurt me again like he did before and she could not stand that. His reaction was that I and DD had over reacted and that earlier he had offered to drive and not stay over and I had said no - let's stay over as the kids can spend more time with their cousins - shouldn't have done that as hip not up to it but trying to do best for kids too as they don't often see their dad's relations..

When he first mentioned the nye party invitation he said it might be better for me to go otherwise I would be lonely ie they would go leave me behind. He quickly retracted that statement when DD challenged him -but it wasn't nice to hear when just out of hospital. So ignoring all the other historic stuff - since NYE he has lost and not replaced my camera, flirted outrageously enough to upset DD, hardly taken me out, lied about trip with female colleague, gone on holiday for 13 days without asking, leaving me post hip, not driving and son with severe MH issues. He has had erectile problems for 3-4 years and sought help 2 years ago - you then worry about where the tablets are going...Some of this is being stupid typical male and some of it is really unkind...and prob some of it is me being paranoia due to historic behaviour.

I work in stressful environments which can be very political and need after 50 + hours a week to vent. He says it's too technical and he's not interested in the he said she said stuff. I only ever need 10 mins air time to download but don't have him there for that. I only do this work to earn the big bucks we need due to his shrunk income. So,listening every day for 5 mins isn't a big ask. His job is v rewarding and every day he has grateful customers and good feedback.

I crack jokes as have dark humour which others seem to get - but he is so shut down that he doesn't respond and says that's because he is always on the defensive. But I don't do the stuff he does which gets reactions and puts him on the defensive.

So the short answer is that he can do small ticket stuff which makes me happy, the kids enjoy his company, v occasionally does a good big ticket thing. But we never seem to be more than 2 or 3 weeks away from a misdemeanour that really upsets me and takes some explaining.

Form recent rational conversations I think we may want different things - I want to do a bit of good in the world and re-find work in sectors I enjoy once my hip has recovered. This may mean a salary cut but I don't care. I love cooking and gardening and want to walk up hills again, hip permitting and do some gentle exploring, culture and rock climbing ( the safe stuff like kids do) and spend time with family and friends and go weekend camping. He still at 54 wants lots of adventures - ice climbing, winter mountaineering, motorbike holidays - and to run his business which does not earn enough to fund a team which can run it whilst he is away and doesn't earn enough to pay for all the adventure holidays he would like to take. I earn that money.

Since I started posting on mums net he has started to read depression book and he has now volunteered that he would come to couples counselling. I am going to the first session by myself and take it from there. I don't know if a good counsellor could get him to take responsibility for his own actions and gain long term insight. There's stress and personality combined to understand for both of us and I don't know where it could take us. A friend spent over 10 years figuring out her hubby's behaviour and then still left him.

Sorry I have rambled on again - but you lose track of what happens and get conned into thinking it's just a one off and that "other things" happened ages ago when they were more recent. Got to get head ordered into priorities otherwise will waste counsellor time overloading.

Think I will cut n paste and edit all my posts and take them into first session for her to read. Mums net has given me some really good challenges and external perspective - I am moving out of making excuses mode.

Really positive post Chris - I'm so glad that your eyes are starting to open. I'm still not sure you have understand how being without someone who makes you stressed and unhappy can be life changing in such a positive way. Just not having someone bringing you down daily is fantastic. And he would be then responsible for himself financially, so if he doesnt earn enough for a holiday that's his problem. You know its not money you've earned, so you dont feel bitter about it.

If I didn't know you were describing your husband I'd think you were describing an immature 19 year old (although my DS at 19 has more thought for others than this!) or a laddish mid-20s yob, frankly.

"Since I started posting on mums net he has started to read depression book and he has now volunteered that he would come to couples counselling."

When they think things aren't going their way, selfish people will say and do almost anything to regain some kind of control. 'You want me to be more insightful?... See me read this book and offer to attend counselling ... Now I have done what you wanted and you have no grounds for complaint'.

It has nothing to do with self-awareness or making your relationship better and everything to do with ticking enough boxes to maintain the status quo.

I'm not sure there's much working out to be done! What's this about 'typical male behaviour'? You've not bought into this crap that male=abusive selfish arsehole have you?

I do wonder about your dc. They are displaying worrying behaviour from what you post.

Of course all dc love their parents because they grow up acclimatising to their environment but the trick with dc who have an abusive parent is helping them to see and feel confident saying when their abusive parent is hurting them. Dd seems able to do that re you - is she able to do that re herself? Does she feel she has to keep quiet about her dad in order to support you or keep the peace? She seems to be taking a somewhat parental role.

I would beware couples counselling if I were you. I don't think they will get him to take responsibility no. I would focus on building your own self esteem and self respect.

Re when he is hurting you she can stick up for you but can she do it when he hurts her or does she also feel she must play along with the 'happy family' thing.

I did wonder about that preciousbane actually.

It's not just the thrill seeking but the seeking to endanger others and the total lack of empathy along with the charm.

Really glad you have found mumsnet somewhere to work this through and that counselling is on it's way. Life with your partner sounds utterly exhausting and soul destroying, I can't believe he is 54. sounds as if you and the kids would be better off renting somewhere small and calm whilst the assets get divided. Might be what your poor DS needs - maybe being around your partner is preventing him from getting some headspace.

Life doesn't have to be walking on eggshells waiting for the next disaster. Life is very short - you still have time to make your life a great one.

Sometimes the point of counseling is to help a couple to 'un-couple' as peacefully as possible. Not all marriages can be saved and many shouldn't be. Go to counseling by all means. But be honest about your expectations, don't censor your responses, and listen carefully to what your H is saying vs his actions.

I still think you need to separate yourself financially. Draw up an equitable 'who pays for what' and present it to him. Start using some of your hard-earned money on yourself, instead of his expensive holidays. Let him pay for those out of his own income after the household needs are met. You need to do more for yourself, trust me it will help you immensely. Even if it's a pint of ice cream and a trashy magazine.

For what it's worth, my DH is still a thrill seeker, even in his late 50s. I've never been one, my feet are firmly planted on the ground. It's never affected our marriage and he's in no way a sociopath. The difference is that my DH has always put the family first.

I would beware couples counselling whether it is to split or stay together tbh. If he is a charming abuser couples counselling will be bad for the op.

AcrossthePond55 - thanks esp for sharing about your hubby - it's good to know that you can be a thrill seeker but not need to involve family. I like a bit of thrill but tbh was so inexperienced with this lifestyle when I met him that I put all my early misadventures whilst learning his sports - which in fairness I was keen to do - down to bad luck rather than being taken into situations beyond where a novice should be. I now know that learning to canoe on grade 3 white water is not safe for novices and will lead to an underwater getting stuck on rocks on grade 4 rapids - sorry if this is a bit technical but grade 5 rapids represent serious threat to life. I fell off rock climbing when barely knew how to lead (ie be at the top end of the rope) and not shown properly how to do it or how to lead within capabilities. One runner held out of 4, I was 80 foot up and near the top calling for a rope from the top but being ignored, I fell 25 foot and didn't drive for a year due to back injury. I was far too ignorant and trusting - with more knowledge I now know I should not have been allowed to do this climb or that river but I trusted him. After the fall I was taken to the pub not to hospital. After the underwater swim canoeing I was eventually found submerged under 3 feet of water and left on the river bank whilst they finished the remaining paddle - it took me ages to walk back to the car -alone and cold and in shock. One last thing - I had an out of of air incident diving at 35 metres on 5th dive - under his supervision - again just another misadventure. But at a serious depth for a novice diver. He stopped diving shortly afterwards because he got a serious bend which I cared for him through. All of this stuff happened before we married. What a lack of foresight and imagination I must have had not to be able to picture the next years. In all of our stories there are places where we need to take responsibility - even if it's being over trusting.

I can see now I have responded to his desire for fun by jumping in with both feet and too much trust and not enough knowledge - and probably a fear of being left out or left behind. I also went into parenthood without tough ground rules about the kids. He wanted the kids he was miserable working for his dad I sent him away camping to sort out what he wanted from life. He came back saying he had no career decision made but he had seen a happy family tumble out of the back of a van with young kids and a dog and obviously happy and loving and this is what he wanted. As I wanted kids too and he drew that picture that I bought into it seemed right and safe. We had a little cottage and I had a happy job - so apart from the bad sport experiences and immense strain of working for his dad - if anyone ever seen Brass with Timothy West - that's the set up.

So we had a family - then it started to kick off....first with his temporary fix to washing machine. It was not fail safe - ie get it a bit wrong and you die - i made a mistake in using the fix and found I was attached to it (washing machines run on v high power - what a time to find out the house had no trip switches) and could feel the electricity travelling up my arm into my body and realising I was going to die in front of kids making an awful noise I managed to wrestle self out of machine - wearing rubber soled shoes protected me a bit. The fix involved putting hand down internal working of washing machine to make door work. I was taken to hospital for stitches and heart trace. I have a deep scar of right wrist which DD v squeamish about as got slashed on w machine mechanism. Never did any science at school so didn't understand the risks - but a heart trace, pools of blood on the floor and a permanent 2 inch scar have given me some insights. Trip switches now fitted. The temp fix could have been accessed by kids as they were toddlers and the bare wires exposed were at eye height.
I am not going to bore readers with the smaller ticket bad stuff when the kids were growing up. And yes there have been good times too.
But I want to know if this is a normal amount of stuff for living with a thrill seeker or a bit more than normal?. Ok I can probably guess your answer but boy is it helping me to write this stuff down and it has been over 20 years story in the making - just in case spreading it out over a longer time frame makes it seem more normal compared to others lives.? Ok that last was prob a rhetorical question...

"I want to know if this is a normal amount of stuff for living with a thrill seeker "

The personality type is immaterial. What is most important is what you determine is a normal/comfortable/manageable amount of stress and, from what I'm reading, you are at the end of your tether on an almost daily basis because of your partner's irresponsible behaviour. You shouldn't have to be medicated or in receipt of therapy in order to cope with anyone, let alone a partner.

CogitoErgoSometimes- yes I am at End of tether - have not been impulsive as feel sorry for my kids And my parents and for husband as he is totally confused and hurt. I feel as if giving up is the selfish option and that I should have enough resources to cope with it. And if I could somehow Create the right conditions then it would get better and he would be kind and loving - which he has been in the past. Can't bear the additional strIn of all the wrangling that will go on financially as part of separation. Too exhausted for that just now - so medication and therapy will have to be my life rafts until dd exams and my hip sorted and son a bit better.

I think you have a problem you haven't described - your attitude towards your children. One is 'my poppet', the other, sick one is 'the looney'.

Good God.
Not one of these issues are typical man stuff but stem from a person who has absolutely no regard for any other humans safety and well being but his own. This includes you and his children.

The fact that your daughter thinks bringing a friend along will get her a break from his dangerous behaviour is desperation on her part. Your son has turned to drugs to numb himself from it all. All of this stems from your husbands attitude to life.
Others now find him unbearable, you only heard an edited version from friends.

He has systematically destroyed your boundaries to the extent that you feel any attempt by you to put the breaks on for any reason, be it your own health or your childrens sanity are you being weak willed.

Get this straight now, this man does not care if you or your children pack up or leave, drop off the face of the earth or die tomorrow.
The only thing he will think about is how that would affect him, never once would he do what you do and think well what drove them to it.
You cannot be anymore accommodating in fact you need to be an awful lot less so or it will kill you and destroy your childrens lives. Your son is hanging by a thread here and your daughter is so people pleasing she could be lining herself up for lifetime of the same albeit with differing issues.

You all need counselling although you also all need to see the whole picture, the ugly stark reality of it. Not the I can cope haze you are putting on it.

Saying your husband kindly raised a few items of furniture for you so you could continue to whiz round doing everything is not being wonderful that's just ensuring you won't ask him for anything. Any other partner would take over your share of the load.

If he can suddenly drop everything on you and go on holiday for 2 weeks he could have managed his work load to accommodate this. He just didn't want to.

I wish you well OP. You are on a long road and I hope you have the strength to see it through to the end. Don't shy away from any tough decisions, you need to re-evaluate your stance to factor in how much his behaviour is affecting them and put you and them first because if you go down he will certainly let them sink, he has proven this time and again. Stop listening to what he says and watch what he actually does.
Does he do any of it voluntarily or is it a token gesture to get you to back down?

Reading your thread OP, this relationship has characteristics of an abusive relationship without, apparently, the abuse.

If I met your husband I would not think he was charming and charismatic, I would think he was an irresponsible arsehole with balls bigger than his brains.

Your sense or 'normal', your boundaries have been so warped by exposure to him that you are not seeing him objectively.

My husband is an athletic type, he likes ski-ing, climbing, surfing, riding, diving, cycling etc, but never, never in all the time I have known him has he ever put the children or me in danger. Ever. There is a big difference between liking some more risky sports and putting other people's lives at risk.

Reading through your posts the main question is what hold does your husband have over you that you stay with him despite his sociopathic behaviour? Why would a clearly intelligent woman stay with a man after he put her and her children in danger multiple times, whose own solicitor recommended that contact be limited with the children for their own safety, who has cheated on her, lied to her, whose own son is now devastatingly affected by the dysfunctional family dynamic, whose own friend called her to say he was pissing everyone off on holiday - how many indications that this man is a disaster do you need before you listen? If you won't leave after risk to your life, infidelity, your son's breakdown - what does he have to do to break the deal? Kill someone? Because that's all that's left..

This is why I say your relationship has characteristics of abuse. He has the same kind of power over you that abusers have. You are completely in thrall to him, addicted to the highs and lows and the sheer stress of being around him. Addicted to him in fact. Perhaps he's not the only adrenaline junky, perhaps you are too? You say you stayed for the children, but I think you stayed because you couldn't tear yourself away.

In abusive relationships there is what is called 'trauma bonds' where the victim forms strong bonds of loyalty and attachment to the abuser in spite of detriment to the victim. He has put you through multiple traumas in which your life was at risk and that has caused you to bind yourself to him intensely. So desperate are you for his approval, that you will take any risk, make any sacrifice. You are furious with him and en-meshed with him at the same time. At bottom 'trauma bonds' are a survival mechanism. In order to rationalise your need for him you say - 'no marriages are perfect, maybe all thrill-seekers are like this, I stay for the children'. In fact, you stay because you are so tangled up in this man you have lost touch with yourself, and you cannot get free. You cannot even see right from wrong anymore. This man is destroying you and your children. At the moment it is clear you would rather go down with the ship than jump free.

I think it is really important not to go to relationship therapy with him. He will continue to manipulate you in therapy. He has a vested interest in keeping the marriage going as it suits him. Who else will fund his adventure holidays, indeed his entire lifestyle? He will never get that elsewhere. He will dangle the carrot of 'working on it' so you continue to be his servant. You could carry on like this for another 10 years. He has no intention of changing, he is fine, it's you who are on your knees. You need counselling alone asap. You really need a third party to help you see his behaviour for what it is.

Your first priorities should be yourself and your health, your son and your daughter. The first step back to normality out of this madness would be to kick your husband out. If he has to find somewhere new to live and work that's his own lookout. Peace at home would no doubt help your son enormously. Your husband has come first for far too long.

x-post with IAmNotAMindReader - absolutely agree.

Chris, Good God lovey, you must've had a death wish! Not really, I completely understand the wanting to 'love what he loves' thing. We've all been there. But by the time I met DH we were both done with that and it was 'take me as I am' for both of us. I would no more have gone hang gliding (his #1 passion, after the family of course), than he would have donned evening kit and accompanied me to the opera. We've compromised (I'll watch him fly & go get him if he files cross country and he'll go to a matinee lol). I'll ride on the back of a snowmobile & he won't drive like a madman when I do. We have mutual interests, of course, but also respect each other's hobbies/pastimes without demanding the other make them their own. The few days we spend apart during the year doing our own thing always bring us home to each other, even more appreciative of what we have together.

But it's obvious that your H doesn't put the family first and therein lies the problem. If he won't do, you must. Frankly, I'd kick him out, if I could afford to!

I do think your marriage is broken, probably beyond repair. I think there have just been too many hurts and patterns of neglect and selfishness to ever fix it. And if you did manage to glue it all together the cracks and breaks would still be there, visible and hurtful. Wouldn't it be much better for all to toss it out and get a whole new, unbroken life? A life in which you can thrive and your DS can hopefully heal and get the help he needs?

To everyone I must apologise for a poorly used term for my son is not a looney - he is ill and disruptive and violent and sad. It was a horrid shorthand to use and if you had seen what I have done to support him from the day he was born you would know I love him too dearly. He ended up ill and in hospital for 19 days because no one apart from my BF who is a GP believed me and he has needed a lot more support ever since. I have been passed round the staff room so many times to speak to teachers about him and I stopped working so that I could feed and nurture him through his gcses. There's lots more but have no doubt he is getting the help now because I sorted it out and am the lead parent with GP, psychiatrist and counsellor. Just fought and won his uni refund fees for his loan.
I am scared when I walk into his room to find him sitting on the window sill legs hanging out smoking strong weed. I am terrified he thinks nothing of waking his sister up in the middle of the night before an important exam with no other reason than he wants something from her. And this will affect her badly and cause her to fail her exams.
So please excuse my bad word. I love both my kids so v much.

He's a sociopathic abuser.

Your children are already damaged -- your son at risk of his life. You are getting perilously close to being implicated in your husband's abusive behaviour towards his children.

Does he (DH) do anything without an audience? He needs continuous validation and that is not sustainable, although you've made a valiant effort. Bow out: you've become faceless to him.

FWIW I feel it is harsh to say you are implicated in your 'husbands abusive behaviour towards his children', in fact I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't stayed in this marriage far longer because you felt it necessary to protect them from your DH's adrenalin fuelled jaunts. Had you split up years ago there would have been occasions where your husband would have been in sole charge of them, given he's nearly killed you with his extreme sporting hobbies on several occasions I think you have done as much as you could to keep them safe. But they are adults now, it's time to detach from this selfish man.

I said "close to" ...

Sherlock - I have stayed exactly for the reasons you stated and hoped to be loved along the way. But it's not there. The kids can now say no. Both have more of my emotional intelligence than husband - who used to say to me " if I become like my father then shoot me". So I know I can help them get untangled. But I wed him to help stop him becoming like his dad so perversely I feel as if I am letting husband down by abandoning him because he has become what he feared he would become.
Does this make a bit of sense? Have fistful of degrees, armful of long standing friends so can't be a complete looney for being in this position. Tbh if he just said I sm really sorry I have been a complete knob and am about to lose what is most precious to me then I would try again. But I don't think he will do that and stupidly I think I and the family are worth him wanting to do that. This is the acute pain I feel and need to have understanding and support through. Rationally I can see through it but emotionally I can't.