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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Infrequent, poor sex - argument on the horizon.

70 replies

NotLookingForwardToTonight · 18/04/2014 15:27

I'm an occasional poster rather than a regular poster but I have name-changed for this because DP knows my normal user name (although I'm sure he would recognise the situation if he reads this anyway) and because I am embarrassed.

DP has been avoiding me this week. He came round last night was obviously not his usual self and has now left for the day in a sulky manner. The reason almost certainly is because we don't have enough sex in his opinion and, to be honest, in mine too. I do like sex but we don't have much sex because, when we do, it's not satisfactory for me. I never initiate it and when we do have sex I am, if I'm honest, just 'letting him' to keep the peace. This leaves me feeling resentful and even less like wanting sex. The reason things have come to a head (again) this week is because he initiated sex on Sunday and it didn't happen. More on that later.

Problems first started nearly a year into our relationship after I'd given him keys to my flat (he doesn't live here but he can come and go). He'd get home first and start to leap on me the second I got through the door, sweaty and smelly from exercise. I didn't feel sexy or confident in that state. At the very least I'd have liked the opportunity to freshen up 'down there'. When I explained this, he took it personally and reacted with anger because he felt rejected. This was the first instance where sex wasn't how he wanted it to be. "It doesn't bother me!" is one of his catchphrases, failing to take into account that things still matter if they bother me. Him being unable to put himself in other peoples' shoes is not an unusual theme.

The anger was very damaging and, I think, a turning point. I lost faith we could discuss sex without it turning into a nasty argument. I became embarrassed and afraid to initiate any discussion about what I wanted or to say anything when I wasn't enjoying myself. I should mention here that my parents gave me a background where 'nice girls don't'. They would always tut if someone so much as held hands on the television so it's difficult to feel that I deserve to enjoy myself and any negative feedback only magnifies that.

We've now been together nearly 4 years. Obviously sex has now come up as a discussion several times and it always starts as an argument when his resentment boils over because he feels he isn't getting enough and feels rejected. I can understand this because he is being rejected and that can't be nice for him or good for his self-esteem. On these occasions, backed into a corner, I do tell him what would make it more satisfactory for me. I try to phrase it non-critically such as "I like it when you use toys, just because your job makes your hands a bit like sandpaper" but obviously he does feel criticised and I get more personal accusations such as "you just lie there like a sack of potatoes". Eventually, we come to a compromise, he makes adjustments for a couple of sessions, then either forgets (his memory is very bad) or can't be bothered at which point I lose interest can't bring it up through fear of embarrassment on my part and anger on his and we go through the loop again.

There are things he does during sex that really put me off and that I don't like. I'm listing them to get this off my chest and because I want to be told if I'm being unreasonable before the inevitable argument tonight. I like fresh breath. He will often try to initiate sex when smelling of garlic or smoke. If I complain, I get told I'm unreasonable because it doesn't bother him if I smell of garlic. I need to be warm. He insists on me being naked but then will repeatedly drag the duvet off when he moves or flaps it about when he adjusts it until I'm cold. We had a session around Christmas where I started out as being really up for it. He dragged the duvet off no fewer than 21 times and took neither this nor the fact I said many times how chilly it was as a hint. I physically lost interest, ended up sorting him out just so I could put my clothes back on and afterwards felt really resentful. He regularly tries to give me oral sex, even though I've told him I don't really like it and would prefer him to use his hands or a toy then sulks if I move him away. If I let him, again I feel resentful and pressured into doing something I didn't want. He doesn't touch me in the right place. To be fair, this isn't entirely his fault. He has workman's fingers and a very poor sense of touch. What gets to me is that if I try to adjust his hands, he just stiffens his wrist. I don't know whether this is deliberate. This is where Sunday went wrong. He touched me, I was interested, things got a bit more heated, I tried to adjust his hands, he resisted, I'd had simply enough of this and moved my hands so I was touching the wrong area as well so he could see how frustrating it was, he tetchily removed my hand after a minute and we stopped. We didn't talk about it during or after. This did leave me feeling frustrated and irritated as it seemed he only touched me because he wanted something out of it and when that involved him having to make an effort he wasn't interested anymore. He has complained that I "can't even be bothered to give him a hand job when not interested" in the past. Not only is this not true, I can't think of an occasion where he's done the same for me.

He has criticisms of me as well. According to him I like to mop up too quickly after sex. I've agreed not to do this, either if we can put a towel down so that I don't have to sleep in a wet/crusty smelly bed until I next get opportunity to change the sheets or if he washes and changes the sheets. I've stuck to my side of the bargain. He hasn't stuck to his. I've gone back to mopping. He doesn't like the fact I spray deodorant all over as it tastes unpleasant. Fair enough, so I don't if he's suggested sex is on the cards but I do get sweaty without it so whilst I appreciate he'd sometimes like to be spontaneous I can't just never use deodorant just in case. Often I am tired and I get back late but these are things I could also level at him - he is tired, leaves early and often disappears for most of the weekends we would normally spend together. He complains I'm not passionate or spontaneous enough. Well, no. Not when I'm not enjoying it and he ignores or forgets what I want, I won't be.

I'd find it difficult enough to broach these things with him calmly but now I'm angry and resentful after Sunday and don't know what to say. I know he's angry too. I would like to do something about this without an argument where he gets nasty because he is defensive and where we don't end up making matters worse for a change.

Other than this issue, we normally get on very well and I'm perfectly capable of sticking up for myself. It's just this.

Sorry, this is a bit long and rambling. I just need some advice and probably hand-holding before and after it all, as likely as not, kicks off tonight. I'm going off thread in a little while as I have things to do and don't know when I'll be back. I promise I'm not trolling.

OP posts:
WhoNickedMyName · 18/04/2014 18:02

He sounds repulsive, garlic breath, sandpaper fingers, "poor sense of touch" - yeah right... I'm surprised you can even bear to let him touch you tbh.

When it gets to the point that you've counted exactly how many times he's thrown the duvet off you, then your sex life has truly died a death. Bin him. He's not interested in pleasing you in the slightest. It's all about him, he doesn't want to make it about you. You won't change him.

badbaldingballerina123 · 18/04/2014 18:06

The trouble with sexual abuse is that it starts off very subtly. Many people don't recognize it as abuse because they're rarely being physically threatened or forced. For many people the use of physical force is what defines sexual abuse.

Instead of using physical force, tactics such as guilt tripping , using anger., and sulking are employed. The victim often reluctantly agrees to sex to avoid the anger or sulking. By your own admission Op , this is where your at now.

As long as these tactics work , there will never be a need to escalate to physical force. Things will simply stay as they are. The incident of wrist tightening is a example of physical force , and I think this happened because you asserted yourself both verbally and physically. I also think it will happen again despite your objections.

yoyo27 · 18/04/2014 18:10

I am surprised by how negative some of the comments are, especially those suggesting sexual abuse.

Can you not both sit down together and talk it through? It sounds like you are BOTH finding fault with each other. I doubt he pulls the duvet off you intentionally, why can't you just have a throw on the bed too? If I get cold during sex I just pull the cover over us.

I think the key here is talking xx

Thislife · 18/04/2014 18:11

Not meaning to minimise what some posters are seeing as assault, it seems like there are a lot of excuses to avoid sex eg it's too cold, his breath smells, you're wearing too much deodorant, you're sweaty, his hands are rough.

I got to this stage with a previous partner. He couldn't do anything right. I gradually went off sex completely and made excuses to avoid it. I thought I had lost my sex drive forever.

Looking back it meant the relationship wasn't right. When I met someone else everything switched back on and I had no complaints whatsoever!

Sorry op, I think it's the beginning of the end.

EverythingCounts · 18/04/2014 18:14

Agree with Thislife above. Many conditions on both sides as well as his insensitivity. Can I ask, OP, have you given up on ever enjoying sex and that's why you are clinging to this relationship - because you think the other stuff being OK is as good as it will ever get for you?

BalloonSlayer · 18/04/2014 18:31

Look you don't live together, you've been together for 4 years, he can't seem to do anything right for you in the bedroom (and I agree he seems selfish) TBH I think you should cut your losses and split up.

For whatever reason, probably his lack of concern for your pleasure, you have stopped fancying him. If you really fancied him you would not care if you were sweaty, if he had garlic breath and you wouldn't be counting, yes counting the amount of times the duvet came off.

This has happened to me in past relationships - this was the path it all followed:

  1. I didn't get much enjoyment out of sex
  2. I tried to broach the subject, found they didn't care
  3. I wanted sex less and less
  4. BF tried to talk to me about it
  5. I - treading on eggshells - explained what was wrong
  6. BF didn't care
  7. I tried a bit harder
  8. Nothing changed
  9. I stopped wanting to have sex at all
10. BF got upset, stroppy comments etc 11. I explained again - that if I never got to enjoy it then why would my body bother getting aroused? 12. BF perplexed. Suggested I could still give him a blow job if I didn't feel like sex. Hmm 13. I tried a bit harder 14. EVENTUALLY I gave up and broke up with him 15. BF utterly bewildered, couldn't imagine why.

This process lasted about a year. You've been at it for about 4. You need to realise that the two of you are just not suited.

Summerwood1 · 18/04/2014 19:57

I think you should end it before children come along and then it becomes a lot more complicated.

Offred · 18/04/2014 20:18

I agree with sgb and others who suggest he is abusive and has learned sex is something to be done to a woman by a man at his discretion.

I also agree that you have an issue with sex and are being very stubborn, clinical and demanding but one is more of a problem than the other. The way you are is not actively harmful to any partner you might have, it's simply your preference and what you need to feel comfortable. The way he is is harmful to you because he's trying to dictate what you are allowed to like.

You are very silly to post all that and then say you don't want to LTB and ask how others negotiate. As pp pointed out you don't negotiate on sexual boundaries. I think the fact you've been raised with this prudish distaste for sex is connected to your inability to see that a sexually controlling/abusive man is one you need to leave.

LeftItAllBehind · 18/04/2014 20:22

I can't help thinking you'd be better off with someone else.

No matter what your parents hinted, nice girls can, do and should enjoy sex. Nice boys should help them with that and it can be mutual.

You have a 'partner' who doesn't live in (take the keys back, please, or change the locks), who doesn't listen to what you want sexually, who complains about the sex you have...but what is he doing to make things better?

I've been on mumsnet for two years. Some of the threads have really shocked me. Recently, a thread about how little sex, and what miserable sex, people have in their relationships, shook me to the core. I live alone. If I had a partner, I'd want a happy and active sex life. I don't know why so many of you put up with anything less. I understand where there are small children in the house or where pressure of work is immense - people go through those phases in their lives, and hopefully get through them eventually.

At present you are not bound by shared debt to buy a house, or shared children to raise, or anything which ties you to this man.

Why not look for another one? Someone you really fancy, and who makes you feel good?

abbykins3 · 18/04/2014 23:44

Just playing devils advocate for a moment but the OP did say this.

"Other than this issue, we normally get on very well"

Offred · 18/04/2014 23:51

Ok abbykins what's you're point? 'Other than being sexually abused/controlled I feel we get on well'

How far would you take that point?

'Other than being given a black eye or two every once in a while I feel we get on well'

'Other than him having sex I don't want with me every once in a while we get on well'

Feeling you 'Get on well' is pretty immaterial if you aren't compatible and aren't being respected.

Offred · 18/04/2014 23:51

*your

Twinklestein · 18/04/2014 23:56

I'd be very surprised if a man that oafish and insensitive in bed was drastically different out of it.

Isetan · 19/04/2014 05:55

My thoughts exactly Twinklestein, selfish twats rarely confine their twattery to one room. You are misguided in thinking that you haven't found and used the right words to communicate your unhappiness, he knows how you feel and doesn't care. His initial defensiveness/ anger was designed, at the very least, to shut you up. It's been 4 years woman! Seriously, stop asking why he is being a shit and start asking why you are putting up with his shit because you don't have to. The ball is in your court because as long as the status quo prevails he ain't got no insentive to change.

abbykins3 · 19/04/2014 08:53

@Offred.

I’ve noticed this with you in the past,you get far too involved.

This is an internet message board,open to anybody in the world.

We offer advice and opinions which the OP can take or leave as they choose.

It can’t be good for your health getting so angry and upset.

NotLookingForwardToTonight · 19/04/2014 13:51

I thought I'd give an update.

I'd like to thank all posters for their views and advice. I do think one or two of you have crossed the line between getting me to think about whether I might be being abused (thank you in particular to badbaldingballerina123 - your posts were food for thought) and insisting that I am and in reading too much into both our characters from what I've put here about this one issue, though. I don't recognise the version of me, or him, that a couple of you are putting across and I do want to challenge this and ask you to think about the difference between offering advice and trying to control a poster's actions. I wouldn't want anyone in a more vulnerable and confused place than I am to be on the receiving end of that and feel railroaded into make a life changing/ruining choice if they feel unable to stand up to it. I said early on in the thread I wasn't going to LTB. Fine to continue to suggest it because that is posters' honest advice and I am grateful for it. Telling me I am silly for not doing so is going too far. Ultimately, I am going to do what I want. I may not know how to handle this one issue but nobody controls me. Not DP. Not you.

To defend DP. DP isn't the most reasonable person in the world. He can be prone to go on the offensive as a form of defense when he feels under attack. He has done this less and less and with more mildness over the course of our relationship as he has come to understand that, unlike a previous relationship he was in, I'm not malicious and I'm not out to hurt him just because we disagree about something or need to change something. He will eventually admit if he's in the wrong and apologise. This isn't a male/female thing either. He is like this with everyone. If you had known his mother, you would know that disrespecting women or seeing them as less than equal simply wasn't an option. He isn't a bad man. 4 years is a long time to have bad sex but it's also a long time to get to know and love someone and want them with you. Nobody is perfect. Definitely not me.

We've talked. I got angrier than I previously had and said everything I needed to say without holding back. He, fairly, made the point that I hadn't given him the full situation before and that I need to tell him some things earlier rather than later. He said he didn't realise he was doing some of the things he was doing and apologised and I believe him. His job, in which he was new when we started going out, has changed him physically quite a lot over time and he hadn't realised how insensitive and heavy handed (another issue) he had become. It manifests itself in ways other than sex so I'm confident he is telling the truth and isn't being awkward on purpose or to control.

I'm not sure how things will turn out. We know where we both stand now. It's a matter of getting back where we were. We've got a plan, it's a bit rubbish because neither of us really know how to go about moving forward, but we both hope it will work.

Thank you again for all your contributions and I do appreciate the time taken even on the few posts I don't agree with.

OP posts:
Sparrowlegs248 · 19/04/2014 14:08

Glad you had your talk OP and it sounds like it went quite well. I must say i was quite shocked at people insisting you were being abused and am glad to hear your reply.

You've made a good start. The only thing i can suggest is keep talking, so that it becomes less embarressing, angry, defensive and more normal and productive.

Offred · 20/04/2014 00:00

What makes you think I'm angry/upset or involved?! Confused how weird!

It's an unimaginative tactic to try and passive aggressively undermine someone who disagrees with you by making them out to be hysterical btw.

Offred · 20/04/2014 00:02

And can you answer my question - what is your point?

Obviously I can and did read that the op had said that, as did others. I'm interested to know why you think it is a counter argument to an accusation of abuse?

Offred · 20/04/2014 00:08

Op - honestly I think you are deluding yourself and tbh have some toxic (to yourself mainly) views about sex such as that your DP is correct to assert that he is going to do things that you don't like unless you are strong enough in opposing them. That is very fucked up.

You've been together 4 years, you have not ever been sexually compatible, it is not going to improve. You are intent on flogging the dead horse, fine but I think in that case you simply have to accept this relationship for what it is - unsatisfying and actually (I think) abusive.

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