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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Why is couple counselling not recommended when there is DV ?

32 replies

Doinmummy · 07/04/2014 16:36

I've seen this advice quite a lot. I was involved in an abusive relationship and we went to Relate together - it didn't work.

What are the reasons for it not being recommended?

(I was horrified when we bumped into our counsellor at a party one night
and after watching him and my ex get pissed together I didn't go back )

OP posts:
SirChenjin · 07/04/2014 16:38

Presumably because it's a criminal offence that should involve the police and a jail term, rather than a cup of tea and a chat?

AttilaTheMeerkat · 07/04/2014 16:39

Counselling is not recommended for abusers, who may use the opportunity to re-enforce their own inability to take responsibility and ‘poor me’ position.

FolkGirl · 07/04/2014 16:41

You make yourself quite vulnerable through counselling.

An abuser can take what you say and use it against you.
If they don't think they are wrong, they are not going to be honest in the sessions.
They can twist whatever is said to their own ends, because that is what they do.

FairPhyllis · 07/04/2014 16:43

Abusive individuals are likely to seek to manipulate the counsellor and use the counselling to displace blame from themselves and generally as another tool to emotionally abuse their partner through.

AnyFucker · 07/04/2014 16:44

Because an abuser will take what you say in joint sessions and use it against you, it's the nature of the beast

So, at best it's a waste of time because you stay schtum

At worst...well, we know how some abused people pay for their disrespect, don't we ?

Lweji · 07/04/2014 16:46

The same goes for mediation during a divorce. Abusers will just use it to further abuse their victims.

DrankSangriaInThePark · 07/04/2014 16:47

Because if my partner thumped me I'd be ringing the police not Marjorie Proops?

And I wouldn't believe him when he (inevitably) said he wouldn't do it again, either.

AnyFucker · 07/04/2014 16:48

Domestic abuse is about much more than physical violence though, don't forget

GoldfishCrackers · 07/04/2014 16:50

Couples counseling is about meeting half way, recognising and admitting where you've gone wrong, and also challenging your partner's behaviour where necessary. If there's an imbalance of power it won't work. The abusive partner is not going to meet anyone half way, so it's useless. More than that, it's handing more power to the abuser. They won't admit any wrongdoing, but can use the other person's honest admissions as justification that they deserve the treatment they dish out.
Worst of all is the fact that raising the issue of abusive behaviour carries the risk of retribution once you're home.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 07/04/2014 16:55

Couples counselling works on the basis that it's two people who basically want the best for each other and respect each other. Where there is abuse that is not the case so it can't be effective. Also incidents of DV are more likely to occur post sessions.

BertieBotts · 07/04/2014 16:59

There's a good bit about this in Lundy - I don't have my copy any more but will try to remember.

From memory/extrapolated experience, the abuser will tend to come across very sincerely in the counselling, perhaps even convincing the counsellor to take his/her side. This is especially so if they are quite a charming person generally, and/or very respectable/come across as a pillar of the community type.

Then later, they take everything YOU've said and use it against you, when you thought you were in a safe space. They haven't actually said anything to incriminate themselves, and may spend quite a lot of time navel gazing about their own "issues" which the counsellor will see as a good thing because this means they understand why they act as they act and could choose to change (the chilling reality of this, of course, being that they know what they need to do to change but they choose not to).

Counselling tends to work on a premise that there are communication issues - not so in an abusive relationship, the abuser can hear you communicating your needs, they just don't care about those needs. You can hear what they are communicating quite clearly too, it's just that what they are communicating is highly unreasonable. (e.g. "You should never go out with other men in case they hit on you"). Abusive relationships are sometimes mistaken for communication issues, because the victim assumes that the abuser is not hearing or understanding their needs, rather than dismissing them. Also, the notion that the abuser might mean what their messages are telling you (the unreasonable expectations) is very difficult to believe, especially if you essentially believe that your partner is on the same page as you. That's the problem; with abuse they are often not. (And they believe that their page is far more relevant and valid than yours).

Or it works on a premise that both partners are equally flawed and need to work as much as each other to fix things. This is, again, not the case where abuse is present, because it is the ABUSER who needs to make changes, and they have to be very drastic changes, not the usual "well it's improving..." that might be acceptable with other communication issues. It is not possible for an abuse victim to simply "stand up to" an abuser, in that it doesn't work and usually just enrages the abuser more/looks like an increased challenge. The abuser genuinely believes in a difference of power or status in the relationship, much like parent and child or master and dog. They do not expect to be "stood up to" and if it happens it is a sign (to them) that they are dangerously out of control and drastic measures must be taken.

The abuser believes they are justified and will come across as such. I don't know if you saw the Channel 4 doc on adoption the other night but there was a very abusive young man on there who described the reason his child was removed as "arguments and stuff". Later in the programme it was shown that the police had been called out to the couple on several occasions, so clearly not most people's idea of normal arguments. An abusive person's perception of concepts like "arguments" "shouting" "violence" and also "love" and "support" might look very different to an emotionally healthy person's understanding. Similarly, victims are often self-deprecating and willing to accept blame, almost exaggeratedly so. "Well it wasn't really his fault, I know how easily he gets wound up and I kept going on about it, I couldn't just leave it. Stupid." They get caught up in the abuser's reasoning and justification of their actions and in some cases start to believe they are genuinely at fault. Because it's taken for granted (on both sides) that this is the case it may not be obvious to an outsider that the interaction is skewed, especially if they are being nonspecific about incidents.

There is probably more, but the short version is that abusive characteristics can't be solved by talking it out in counselling, they need really intensive therapy which itself has a very low success rate, and often is impossible to resolve within a relationship because the history is too great to overcome.

PurpleBoot · 07/04/2014 17:03

Agree with all the above. Went to a couple of sessions with my violent ex, the counsellor was out of her depth and allowed my ex to dominate the whole thing. He managed to twist everything to put me at fault, there certainly was no meeting in the middle, and the counsellor had no hope at all. Hopeless and demoralising.

BertieBotts · 07/04/2014 17:03

I sometimes use the cake analogy, if you imagine that you have a cake in your marriage. Most people's assumption (and the counselling assumption) is that you will want half each and work that out however.

But the abusive person's mindset is more selfish. They think they and they alone have the right to the cake, and really, they're being incredibly generous if they offer you a slice. They may even believe that you have a cake of your own that you're hiding away and not sharing with them.

PurpleBoot · 07/04/2014 17:06

Good grief Bertie, your second and third paragraphs were exactly what happened! Ex just went on about himself in a very convincing way and seemed to get the counsellor on his side, seemed charming etc, so that it seemed unlikely any DV had actually occurred....

YuccanLiederHorticulture · 07/04/2014 17:09

What Ehric said: couples counselling starts from the assumption you are both reasonable people, grownup enough to take a sensible proportion of responsibility for the relationship breakdown. abusers will abuse the situation and add further abuse and power exploitation into the mix.

Doinmummy · 07/04/2014 18:04

Thanks for the replies , especially Bertie - this is exactly what happened.

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Doinmummy · 07/04/2014 18:06

I told the counsellor that there was violence but he carried on anyway. I have often wondered if he was an abuser himself.

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SolidGoldBrass · 07/04/2014 18:15

The trouble with counselling is that it is not an exact science and counsellors are human beings, who have prejudices and opinions, and make mistakes. An inexperienced counsellor, or one who has fuckwit religious views about the sanctity of marriage, or one who is inherently sexist, will often take an abuser's side. A lot of crap counsellors are fixated on the idea of saving the relationship, whereas good ones will be open to the possibility of helping the couple separate amicably if that's the best solution.

Doinmummy · 07/04/2014 18:20

True SGB you are at their mercy, I knew it was doomed when I watched them both get pissed together. I asked him if this would compromise our relationship with him as our counsellor, he said it would be fine.

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Doinmummy · 07/04/2014 18:24

Arthritic that link has sent shivers down my spine. My violent, controlling abusive ex is now a counsellor himself and conducts sessions in his own home. I find this deeply disturbing.

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AnyFucker · 07/04/2014 19:00

Yep, that Bancroft link is chilling. And very, very accurate about the true nature of an accomplished and practiced abuser. Feel very, very sorry and scared for anyone in a relationship with a person like that because your are in huge danger of getting your whole psyche fucked up beyond repair.

AnyFucker · 07/04/2014 19:02

It has been said that this particular career pathway attracts a certain type of individual. Hence the importance of individual monitoring and submitting to the safeguarding procedures of individual therapy for the therapists. A very clever and manipulative person could think themselves above all that, of course, and use their priveliged position to truly fuck people up. Doesn't bear thinking about, tbh

arthriticfingers · 07/04/2014 19:23

AF - we are not beyond repair - we mend slowly and painfully, but we can and do become whole again.
It is just that prevention is better than cure, so the Freedom Programme should go into schools and every library should have multiple copies of Lundy.

arthriticfingers · 07/04/2014 19:30

Of course, if we become one of the two women killed every week, then we are, indeed, beyond repair. :(