Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Parents being racist

50 replies

UnquietDad · 20/08/2006 12:29

Wondered if anyone else has this.

My parents live a couple of hundred miles away so we hardly ever get to see them. They're in their early 70s and are brilliant grandparents to our DD and DS, who always look forward to seeing them. Problem is, they are getting more and more racist.

Several times we gritted our teeth and didn't rise to the bait, but there comes a time when it is impossible - when my mum (more so than my dad - he thinks the same but seems to know when to keep quiet) will say something outright and add "don't you think so?" and is astonished - outraged even - when we don't think the same. They don't see that there is a debate to be had.

Their argument, which took us exhaustingly and painfully round in circles over several hours, can be summarised as follows: 'all Moslems are terrorists, or at least you solve the problem by treating them as such - you send "them" all "home" [wherever that may be] and you solve the problem, and if you argue otherwise it is because you have been "brainwashed" and can't understand because you are too young and didn't live through the war. And England has changed and it's no longer English, and "these people" don't respect the British way of life - all "they" want to do is change "our" rules and wear their silly scarves on their heads to hide their identities, and they get out of wearing school uniform and motorcycle helmets, and they go round bombing us all, and if you sit next to a Moslem on a bus carrying a rucksack he'll have a bomb in it, and WHY are they HERE when all they want to do is sponge off our taxes and kill us all, and "they" learn about how to kill people in their mosques and we are being invaded...'

There's more - but I think you get the gist.

Now, DW and I are hardly earringed lentil-weavers who recycle the "Guardian" into worm-bin compost, but we just found ourselves getting more and more worked up - mainly with the continual assertion that we can't have an opinion and we are "trying to provoke" by daring to say something different.

The other frustrating thing is the false dichotomy argument - when someone can't separate out the individual point you are making from a more general, sweeping statement. You point out that the vast majority of the troublemaking thugs in their area are white, and you get: "Oh, so you're saying that makes it ALL RIGHT to bomb people, then?"

Then we got the pity card - "Doesn't it bother you at all that we are frightened to live somewhere that doesn't feel like England any more?" Oh, yes, so we should be sitting there agreeing that we're all going to DIE because there are suicide-bombing Moslems round every corner. Never mind that we, in our feeble-liberal, Guardian-reading way, were trying to put the whole thing into some kind of perspective and stop them obsessing about it.

I can see how, from their point of view, the world appears to have changed astonishingly quickly in the last 50 years and the cultural landscape has shifted at a bewildering speed. But it's a huge jump from there to claim that they are somehow having their way of life forcibly altered by a minority, or that they are in danger of death every time they step out of their front door, or that this country is being overrun with murderous illegal immigrants living off "proper" British people's taxes.

The most frightening thing of all is that they are educated, well-travelled people - both originally from working-class backgrounds, they were each the first person in their family to go to university and are now the epitome of middle-class respectability. They bought their own home at the age of 25, worked all their lives in professional jobs, are well-travelled and well-read. So you can only wonder what kind of thing is being said by people who haven't had the benefit of their education and background.

The other day I was reading that the BNP's latest solution to the problem is to ban all Moslems from flying, and it occurred to me that this is just the kind of thing which my mother would think was a perfectly reasonable, right-thinking suggestion.

Ultimately, of course, they are not going to do anything which might mean they can't see their grandchildren, so this issue will probably be left to simmer and will explode from time to time. I know the ideal thing is probably to accept that, at their age, they are not going to change their views and just to avoid the subject, but it can be remarkably difficult to do so - especially in the current political climate.

OP posts:
southeastastra · 20/08/2006 12:35

my dad and mil are both in their late 70s. they have lived through alot of changes in this country. i don't know how you can enlighten them but we do try, they see the world differently to us. alot of it is fear of the unknown.

Carmenere · 20/08/2006 12:35

The problem here is not their hateful opinions of which there is no excuse but their reluctance to accept that you don't share them.

kimi · 20/08/2006 14:00

I would tell them They are intitled to their oppion BUT you do not share it and would thank them NOT to voice it in frount of YOUR children.

YES we live in an ever changing world, and yes there ARE BAD muslims in it, but there are Bad jews, christians, catholics ets. You might also like to point out that (going by their ages) they fought a war against a man who decided that the Jews were THEM and should be removed from his country etc.....

WideWebWitch · 20/08/2006 14:09

My mother reads the Daily Mail and while she most definitely isn't racist she has some other opinions that are abhorrent to me. So we don't talk about these things. If she brings up a dangerous subject I get a dangerous look in my eye and she stops.

Can you tell them that you disagree, that you have a right to disagree but that you absolutely don't want to discuss it and won't have these things said in front of your children? And if they start saying these (frankly racist, you're right) things, calmly stand up and say 'remember what we agreed? If you want to talk about this you'll have to do it alone' and make to leave. And if they continue, then leave. They'll get the message, surely?

wartywarthog · 20/08/2006 14:19

i hate that kind of talk. full of generalisations and fear-mongering. just down-right WRONG. i have family that are like this and it drives me up the wall. we agree not to discuss it now because we can't reach a consensus and i will never agree with them.

you do have a right to an opinion because your taxes are paying their pension. as are all the taxes that the moslems pay too.

PandaG · 20/08/2006 14:31

Think WWW is right, you need to agree to disagree, and not talk about it. My parents rile me sometimes with their sweeping generalisations, I have to say I disagree, lets not talk about it as I do not want to argue.

Joolstoo · 20/08/2006 14:35

can't you just say 'we're never going to agree on this subject so let's at least agree not to discuss it' because apart from that they sound like great people and great parents - they seem to have done a good job on you and not influenced your thinking at all.

(It's a shame you can't discuss it though - in our family we have many a heated debate with raised voices and pointing fingers it really gets quite raucous - then we all hug and kiss and go to bed )

fattiemumma · 20/08/2006 14:45

i am not a rascist at all and would be offended if anyone called me one BUT i can see your parents side of the argument and in some cases agree.
ok ok not quite so far as to say all muslims should be returned "home" (the majority of those who are known to be extremists are british born)

But i do agree that the countries over willingness to welcome those from all cultures has lead us to lose the very little British pride we once had.
lets face it....the British dish is now Chicken Tikka MAsala! we have lost our national identity.

Now for some of us we can see that thats not sucha big deal. but for people of your parents generation, who lost family and freinds fighting to Keep Britain it must be a bitter pill to swallow.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 20/08/2006 14:45

Agree with Www and Jools.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 20/08/2006 14:48

Culture isnt only defined by history though, is it? Why shouldnt Britain 'move on'?

As for Chicken Tikka Masala....it was invented in Britain, that makes it as British as it comes, surely?

winnie · 20/08/2006 15:01

My xmil came to stay at Easter (her son and I have separated but are on good terms). She was racist beyond belief and despite several challenging remarks from me she didn't shut up. So in the end I had to say 'this is my house and I'd appreciate it if you keep your bigotted views to yourself' (or words to that affect). Her reaction was to pack her case and demand that x get her out of my home and away from me. She no longer speaks to me. She has contact with ds but as she lives several hours a way this quite restricted anyway. I am saddened by her reaction but quite frankly I am glad I challenged her. My children deserved to hear such cr*p challenged quite frankly. She will never change, she is a lost cause but that doesn't mean I should have kept my mouth shut. I think you will have to agree to disagree but I would ask them not to spout such views in front of your children.

catsmother · 20/08/2006 15:03

My mum isn't quite as outrageously outspoken as your parents but I know from years of "asides" that she also holds very similar views.

I don't understand why this should be so - okay, her schooldays were entirely "English" but since then my mum has worked with people from all sorts of backgrounds, some of whom she readily describes as friends and still sees on a rgeular basis even though she retired 15 years ago.

However, it appears, when we chat, that any mention of socialising with "these" friends has to be quantified. She simply cannot say that she met xxxxx for lunch, she always has to say "I met xxxxx for lunch the other day, you do know she's Chinese don't you, but she's ever such a nice lady". Even though I have known of this friend for over 20 years and yes, do know she's Chinese. What does her ethicity have to do with whether she's nice or not ?

What drives me up the wall is that through these friends my mum knows that you do not have to be white and English to be "nice". But it is this unspoken allusion that anyone "different" must be "not nice" and worthy of suspiscion unless my mum has personally vetted them.

She had Indian neighbours until a few months ago and again, anything she told me about them, always had to a) point out yet again that they were Indian and b) surprise, surprise, they were a "lovely" family. I asked her recently if she'd met her new neighbours and she told me they were West Indian " .... but they seem ever so hard working. The dad has his sons cleaning his car each weekend".

I think she thinks she's paying "these" people a compliment when she says how nice they all are but the way she does it, is, to me, a completely backhanded compliment and very condescending. And yes, racist.

If I ever point out all the "buts" she uses she just giggles and says she didn't mean it like that. It's an impossible subject to discuss with her as she doesn't come out with out and out insults, but I feel she leaves so much implied by the praise she graciously gives to "people who aren't like us" (sic).

winnie · 20/08/2006 15:04

I meant to add and ask them to accept that if they spout such views in front of you they will be challenged. (I hope that makes sense.)

saadia · 20/08/2006 15:26

I do understand that people of a certain age find it difficult to accept some of the cultural changes that have taken place but at bottom, to complain that the national dish is now Chicken Tikka Masala suggests to me that the problem for some people is that it comes from non-white people.

Are people as upset by the fact that American burgers/fried chicken shops or Italian pizza/pasta restaurants are also "taking over"?

Blandmum · 20/08/2006 15:40

From my experiences with older relative I would say that your are higly unlikly to change their minds over such an ingrained issue (I don't agree with them btw this is more of a general comment). trying to change their minds will just frustrate an annoy you.

I think that what you have to do is come to a working compromise, in so far as they should not voice thse opinions in front of your children. As WW says, chat it over with them (when children are not around and it is not an 'issue' at the time IYSWIM). If they cannot restrain themselves when you have the children there, then leave.

CountessDracula · 20/08/2006 15:41

Unquietdad, I had a similar thread here and there is some good advice. I do feel for you

kimi · 20/08/2006 15:43

DS2s best friend at school is a muslim (and apart from worring what i should and should not offer him for tea) (had help from mumsnet on that one ) i dont see him as any diffreant from any of my childres other friends, and DS2 most certenly sees no differance.
Despite being a very muslim family where mum is Very muslim full dress and not much english and dad goes off with his prayer mat, they chose to live here, have their children here send them to an english school, they work, pay their taxes and are nice quite people, their children take part in school assembleys and send and recive christmas cards, (althought it is not their festival)and my child sends him a card for Eid.
The world is getting smaller, and like it or not we all have to live in it.

Ok this is England and i do feel if you want to live here and keep your faith thats fine you are intilted to but i am just as intitled to keep and be proud of mine, I went to Morrocco a few weeks ago and everyone was lovely, the hotel was very westen and my sister and i walked about in swimsuits and shorts and vest tops, but when we went to the more tredisonal parts of town or the markets we covered up, long trousers, long sleves and tied our hair back, one of the ladys in our party went in daiseduke stile shorts and a tight vest top then was upset by the looks she got from the women and the remarks from the men. Its a case of when in rome........

ilovecaboose · 20/08/2006 15:52

I was reading an article or book/essay thing the other day (can't remember for the life of me what it was). Anyway the point of it was that England/Britain has always been a multicultural society or at least has for hundreds and hundreds of years. Think of viking and roman invasions. I doubt there is any of us how can say we have solely 'british' blood. What does that even mean? Does that mean to be celtic? Or do we have to look back even further than that?

Our 'British' culture is not something static, but something that remains everchanging (as do all cultures) affected by those who come to this country. It has never been static. FFS even our language has grown out of others and is constantly changing - the words beef, pork etc ever wondered why they're not the same as cow, pig? We got them from our Norman invaders (the ones that would have actually been eating them).

SOciety and culture cannot stand still in a void it is affected by the outside world. Everything that happens affects it - whether negatively or postively.

Oh and by the way I believe Chicken Tikka MAsala was invented by the BRitish in INdia.

jasper · 20/08/2006 16:07

you won't change their opinion.
For them it is a valid way of looking at the world.
Their viewpoints are shared by millions.

Fast forward 40 years and your kids will be posting on a website about how their parents (ie YOU) have ridiculous untractable views of the world.

notsoladyjess · 20/08/2006 16:09

my dad is not racist but he has a problem with gay people and it pisses me off.
i have realised though that he is a stuffy old torygraph reading man, i have tried to argue with him but he is just so set in his ways, i just give up.
rather awkward when he came to stay at mine the other weekend when Pride was on, i had to keep him away from the centre of brighton!!
i have found that the older he gets, the less flexible he is with his views, he simply cannot take on board anyone else's opinion, very annoying. and he sneers as us for reading the guardian. Ha!

Piffle · 20/08/2006 16:34

My in laws use the term Paki a lot and it realy pisses me off, they have a large family moved in to the street next to theirs, they ahve extended the house and 2-3 generations live their and FIl said "they park their taxis there night and day" WTF???
I told them that I find their language and views offensive and even hypocritical in the case of Irish FIL who himself suffered racist abuse when he moved over here in the 50's as a young lad looking for work.

But it's an uphill battle. They live in Rotherham and perceive the Asian population there as some kind of mafia gangland taking over the local councils.

Joolstoo · 20/08/2006 16:39

notsoladyjess your father's prejudice to gays is matched by your prejudice of 'stuffy old torygraph reading man'

UnquietDad · 20/08/2006 17:31

Thanks everyone for your input.

Kimi - I have tried that, believe me! It's "a totally different situation and you know it", apparently. Well, that told me.

martianbishop - to be fair we don't have these discussions in front of the children. Hope we never do.

ilovecaboose - tried that too! reaction "but it ws never like this, people respected the BRITISH way and BRITISH customs."

My mother was an evacuee, for God's sake. You'd think she would feel for people who are uprooted from their homes and have to go and live somewhere alien.

jasper - you may be right! sad to think that... Can just see it, ParentsHoloVidInteractive in 2022 full of 'my mum and dad won't accept that having sex with donkeys is perfectly normal and they won't allow me to express my lifestyle.'

They never used to be this bad - at least, not in such an outspoken way. It's definitely the recent terrorist troubles which have brought this out in them.

OP posts:
kimi · 20/08/2006 17:32

When FIL died MIL decided to sell her house and move to the other end of the country, her neighbour offered her a good price for her house told her no rush he would bye it and she could move out when she got a house she liked at the other end...... offered her a good price.
She told us im not selling it to him i dont want to sell it to "pakies"
So she took out a loan, found a house there could not sell her house here, in the end she sold it to a indian chap, (it was in a very indian populated area ffs) she sold it for £3000 less then was frist offered and had to pay back tons of intrest on the loan.

I p*ssed myself laughting.

kimi · 20/08/2006 17:33

sORRY THAT WAS £30,000 LESS