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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Parents being racist

50 replies

UnquietDad · 20/08/2006 12:29

Wondered if anyone else has this.

My parents live a couple of hundred miles away so we hardly ever get to see them. They're in their early 70s and are brilliant grandparents to our DD and DS, who always look forward to seeing them. Problem is, they are getting more and more racist.

Several times we gritted our teeth and didn't rise to the bait, but there comes a time when it is impossible - when my mum (more so than my dad - he thinks the same but seems to know when to keep quiet) will say something outright and add "don't you think so?" and is astonished - outraged even - when we don't think the same. They don't see that there is a debate to be had.

Their argument, which took us exhaustingly and painfully round in circles over several hours, can be summarised as follows: 'all Moslems are terrorists, or at least you solve the problem by treating them as such - you send "them" all "home" [wherever that may be] and you solve the problem, and if you argue otherwise it is because you have been "brainwashed" and can't understand because you are too young and didn't live through the war. And England has changed and it's no longer English, and "these people" don't respect the British way of life - all "they" want to do is change "our" rules and wear their silly scarves on their heads to hide their identities, and they get out of wearing school uniform and motorcycle helmets, and they go round bombing us all, and if you sit next to a Moslem on a bus carrying a rucksack he'll have a bomb in it, and WHY are they HERE when all they want to do is sponge off our taxes and kill us all, and "they" learn about how to kill people in their mosques and we are being invaded...'

There's more - but I think you get the gist.

Now, DW and I are hardly earringed lentil-weavers who recycle the "Guardian" into worm-bin compost, but we just found ourselves getting more and more worked up - mainly with the continual assertion that we can't have an opinion and we are "trying to provoke" by daring to say something different.

The other frustrating thing is the false dichotomy argument - when someone can't separate out the individual point you are making from a more general, sweeping statement. You point out that the vast majority of the troublemaking thugs in their area are white, and you get: "Oh, so you're saying that makes it ALL RIGHT to bomb people, then?"

Then we got the pity card - "Doesn't it bother you at all that we are frightened to live somewhere that doesn't feel like England any more?" Oh, yes, so we should be sitting there agreeing that we're all going to DIE because there are suicide-bombing Moslems round every corner. Never mind that we, in our feeble-liberal, Guardian-reading way, were trying to put the whole thing into some kind of perspective and stop them obsessing about it.

I can see how, from their point of view, the world appears to have changed astonishingly quickly in the last 50 years and the cultural landscape has shifted at a bewildering speed. But it's a huge jump from there to claim that they are somehow having their way of life forcibly altered by a minority, or that they are in danger of death every time they step out of their front door, or that this country is being overrun with murderous illegal immigrants living off "proper" British people's taxes.

The most frightening thing of all is that they are educated, well-travelled people - both originally from working-class backgrounds, they were each the first person in their family to go to university and are now the epitome of middle-class respectability. They bought their own home at the age of 25, worked all their lives in professional jobs, are well-travelled and well-read. So you can only wonder what kind of thing is being said by people who haven't had the benefit of their education and background.

The other day I was reading that the BNP's latest solution to the problem is to ban all Moslems from flying, and it occurred to me that this is just the kind of thing which my mother would think was a perfectly reasonable, right-thinking suggestion.

Ultimately, of course, they are not going to do anything which might mean they can't see their grandchildren, so this issue will probably be left to simmer and will explode from time to time. I know the ideal thing is probably to accept that, at their age, they are not going to change their views and just to avoid the subject, but it can be remarkably difficult to do so - especially in the current political climate.

OP posts:
Joolstoo · 20/08/2006 17:35

maybe its because your mother was an evacuee - she thought she'd escaped to safety - and now the terrorist threat has arrived on these shores.

perhaps unthinkable memories are returning?

motherinferior · 20/08/2006 17:56

Oh dear, UD, how vile for you. I suppose the only thing you can do is ask them to shut up in front of the kids (tell them it upsets them)?

Feel free to invite DP and me round - we're both half Asian, I'm white, he's distinctly Asian looking, he can tell them about his Muslim father rewriting stories from the Koran into a children's version on the back of cigarette packets when he was in prison (Pakistan,early 1970s). That'll rattle them

Tommy · 20/08/2006 18:23

this is soooo diffcult but I do think a lot of it is a generational thing.
However, I think, in your house, you can decide whether you want to listen and ask very politely for them not to speak like that ( have done this with MIL who started saying "Eeney, meeney miney mo....." - you can guess the rest )
but if you are in their house you might well have to threaten to leave in which case they will have realise how strongly you feel about it.

CaligulaCorday · 20/08/2006 18:28

Oh God racist relatives are just one big PITA aren't they. I agree you're never going to change them, but if it's any comfort, they're highly unlikely to influence your children. All the other influences around them contradict what racist grandparents say and we all know that kids don't necessarily agree wiht their parents' / grand-parents' views.

In the meantime, I guess all you can do is say "if you don't want to hear my views on this subject, don't bring it up - you're the one who started with the racist comments, surely you don't expect me to just sit here and nod and smile and agree with you? You know I can't stand racism, how d'you expect me to react?" Challenge them not on their views (pointless), but on their tedious insistence on expressing them endlessly.

motherinferior · 20/08/2006 18:30

I am tempted to suggest you tell them you've converted.

helsy · 20/08/2006 18:34

Haven't read all of this but I know I've found it harder since having children to agree to disagree with the racist views of my DG-M and members of DH's family because I don't want DD1, a very perceptive 6 yr old, to think I condone them using extremely derogatory and insulting terms about people from other cultures. So I do challenge more now, but perhaps more cleverly than in my outraged teens.

scotchick · 20/08/2006 18:38

I don't particularly remember my dad being racist when I was younger, maybe he is now because - I'm an adult and he feels he can talk that way to me, and because he's becoming old, grumpy and intolerant. He knows how I feel about the comments he makes but I would say every phone conversation or visit I have had with him the past couple of months has contained at least one racist or homophobic statement.

He tried talking about 'pakis' in front of my ds1 (7) and I had to say DAD! in a loud voice and gave him a look. He looked back at me as if to say - how dare you talk to me that way.

He has new next door neighbours - from Pakistan! I love karma. Maybe it was fated to happen so that he can realise that people of different nations are actually quite normal people!

He loathes gay people with a vengence - says it's repulsive and when I said what about lesbians then, he actually had the gaul to say he thought that wasn't so bad - of course!!!!

My mother hated Jewish people as did her mother before her, so with an anti-semitic mum and a racist/homophobic dad, can you believe I am neither???

CaligulaCorday · 20/08/2006 18:38

Oh I just hate them.

This is where I find my tolerance goes out the window and I just want to shoot them all. It just really pisses me off that they put me in a position where they know that I feel uncomfortable, and where afterwards, I have to tell my DS that Auntie X, Y, Z and Uncle A B and C are all talking crap. Why the f*k can't they be civilised enough to keep their crass stupid wanky views to themselves so that I don't have to send confusing messages to my children?

helsy · 20/08/2006 18:43

Bragging here, but when dd1 was in reception class a little girl came up to her and said she wouldn't come to dd1's birthday party if X ( a boy in their class) was invited, because "he's BROWN and he smells" - wonder where she got that from? Dd1 told her that he WAS coming because he is her friend and if she didn't want him to come then she wasn't invited! Still not sure whether I should have had a word with her parents.

Californifrau · 20/08/2006 18:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

drosophila · 20/08/2006 19:17

I took my Mum to church recently (she is catholic) and she wanted to know why there was a Muslim in the church. I had to try and explain that through years of Missionary Zeal there are indeed Catholics from as far as field as India and Goa. Another time driving through he streets of Peckham she was surprised to see so many Nuns (they were in fact Muslim Women in their traditional dress). Another time at the Doc waiting room she was looking at some Somalian Muslim women whose children were wearing the headdress and she in a loud voice declared it is was terrible to put the kids in such garb. Like the Holy Communion Dresses you put us in I asked? My Mum is indiscreet to say the least.

My brother and his wife are getting an egg donor from Spain and she is not impressed. Yo could end up with a black baby. My two kids are mixed race but she seems to forget this. I told her I had a beautiful photo of my DD but I was afraid to send it to her cos it was a picture of a Black Baby. You know I make allowances cos she is in her late seventies but give me strength!!!!

She has also said how she was 'working like a black' in front of my black DP. I suppose I should be grateful she didn't use a more offensive term.

scotchick · 20/08/2006 19:35

Jeez, that makes my dad look like a liberal, not the almost BNP man he is (a lot of their policies make sense according to him!)

fuzzywuzzy · 20/08/2006 19:54

hahaha Fattiemumma just try finding Chicken tikka masala anywhere in India you'll find it doesn't actually exist there. I personally have no idea how to cook the stuff either, and yes my parents were both born in India and we're all Muslim.....

CountTo10 · 20/08/2006 19:54

It is difficult when you have very different views on anything and ususally its best to adopt the 'can we just agree to disagree' philosophy. What I would say though is it is very difficult for a lot of people to understand this new breed of extrmisim and as someone has already said, fear breeds this type of opinion. Unfortunatley public opinion is easily swayed by the tabloids of this country. Having said that, as tolerant as I try to be, I leave 10mins down the road from one of the areas that was swooped on last week and it does make you feel a bit differently when its that close to home!!!

fuzzywuzzy · 20/08/2006 19:59

Apparantly a lot of the people held for last weeks fiasco have been let go, some are now being held for other charges not relating to terrorism.

CountTo10 · 20/08/2006 20:02

Makes you wonder why they bothered all the fuss it entails. They went to great lengths round here and are still searching for stuff. Its just worrying not knowing one way or the other!!

CaligulaCorday · 20/08/2006 20:48

LOL at all those nuns in Peckham. (I remember when it was all bloody nuns in Peckham, I was taught by them)

Cappuccino · 20/08/2006 21:02

I think older people tend to start feeling pushed out and threatened as they age

a lot of them worry about crime and young people (there have been studies to show that the fear of crime among elderly people far exceeds the incidence or evidence of it) at present the threat of the day in the media is immigration and Muslim fanaticism

and with the current paranoia it's understandable that they're feeling a bit frightened, however misplaced and ignorant that fear is

also they start to, I'm sorry, make a little less sense and become a little less able to weigh evidence

my grandma once watched a documentary about some African villagers and seeing that they didn't eat the ends of bananas, decided that she would do the same since they obviously knew what they were doing

a few years later it was 'I'm not eating the ends of the bananas, niggers eat the ends of bananas'

my mum taught me this trick with my grandma: 'Just say 'Oh' and move on'

she gets very pissed off now when I do it to her

UnquietDad · 21/08/2006 14:34

Yes, we have the "fear of crime versus actual figures" conversation too, and they CANNOT accept that we are in any way right. These days my parents have a newspaper every day, several hundred TV channels and the radio and Internet - it's no wonder they hear about more violent incidents than they used to. But no, all I get is: "you used to be able to go out and leave your door open, the local bobby KNEW who all the ne'er-do-wells were and if he saw them causing mischief he'd give them a clout or talk to their parents, and you COULD walk safely at night without worrying about getting mugged, and..." etc, etc.

They won't have it when you point out that Victorian London (for instance) was a much more dangerous place to be than London today - or that you can now travel from London to York in several hours in an air-conditioned bubble, whereas three hundred years ago you'd have had to do it over several days in a rickety carriage and probably be robbed by highwaymen on the way.

OP posts:
Cappuccino · 21/08/2006 14:37

you can't change their opinions - they're scared behind all the bluster; you have to have some sympathy for them even if they are talking crap

I've a lot of experience with The Old Ones

be kind

UnquietDad · 21/08/2006 14:42

The really dangerous one, though, is to start to suggest that their memory of the 1940s and 1950s might be a little selective, and that just because they didn't know about domestic violence, robberies, sexual crimes, etc, doesn't mean they weren't going on.

Oh, God... not going there again.

How many of us who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s idealise them to that extent? Or, indeed, would claim to have such a strong recollection what "things were like"? DW and I often have this conversation - we couldn't always say for certain (without looking it up) when certain cultural milestones happened, how many people came from "broken homes" (as they were called back then), which phrases were and weren't used. Yet try watching "Foyle's War" with my mum - "that's wrong, that's wrong, they wouldn't have said that, they wouldn't have done that..." I wouldn't trust myself to be so sure about, say, "Life On Mars", which is set when I was 4.

I'm sensing this is a different conversation now, but never mind.

OP posts:
edam · 21/08/2006 14:48

Agree you can't change them, and that they are speaking from fear (of change, of the unknown). All you can do is ignore, ignore, ignore. They can't keep a conversation going if you don't react.

Or tell them that if they ever mention the subject again, you'll convert, circumcision and all!

Cappuccino · 21/08/2006 14:54

you might find yourself idolising your childhood years when you're 70

you never know what's going to come back and bite you in the ass

I still think this is down to age and fear

Mirage · 21/08/2006 21:40

I wouldn't worry too much.As your children don't hear this kind of rubbish from you,they will probably disregard it totally.

I had a very racist step grandad,who my mum loathed.He used to tell complete lies about how (I won't repeat the word he used)would come & sleep in your hall if you left the front door unlocked.

He was an utterly horrible man & I do remember the things he said,but only because they were so shocking.But I also remember my mum telling me very firmly not to take any notice of any of the things he said & that if she caught me repeating any of the words or terms he used,I would be in very serious trouble.

It must have pissed him off immensely when my mum & dad fostered 2 Nigerian children.My gran who was just as bad,asked my mum not to bring them around in case the neighbours saw!

wannaBe1974 · 22/08/2006 06:43

I'm not so sure whether it's an age thing although I think it does play a part. My parents are in their late 50's and are definitely racist. Although this has been fuelled by the fact that we lived in South Africa for 15 years. I try to ignore it and make my views very well-known. I think though that the media has a lot to answer for. There is so much emphasis on asylum seakers and imigrants, that the two tend to get put in the same category when actually there is a difference. When my parents go on and on and on about people emigrating here to take our jobs, claim our benefits etc, I simply point out to her that we were imigrants when we moved to south africa, and it can't be one rule for her and one for the rest of the non-white population.

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