Hoarding DH - At the end of my tether (Long)

[Eatriskier]

Before I launch into the bad stuff, I should say that DH is a generally a lovely and very honest man. He doesn't abuse me in any way, he would barely say boo to a goose and he is a wonderful father to our two young DC. But he has a hoarding issue.

Now, I have always known he has had a tendency towards this. Its always been an problem between us. When we bought our first home together he promised he wouldn't fill it with crap especially as its a small home and I was due our first DC. He agreed to an area he could fill and that it was all he had and he wouldn't encroach anywhere else - he promised to scale down and not buy more.

Unsurprisingly he has massively stuffed this, a large part of our living room, the garage, the loft and half our bedroom with crap. Crap is harsh, some of it is useful but for the main its not useful nor necessary. In massive rows he's promised to get rid but he just boxes stuff up, moves it to a storage locker (which is now pretty much full) and then slowly fills it all back up or buys a new piece of furniture/storage to absorb the stuff.

I can't move all the items of storage and junk to clean properly, my house is becoming filthy. I am ashamed of my own home, I won't invite anyone in. I cannot live like this anymore. I've told DH loads that I am at the point where the kids and I are going to have to leave. He still won't do anything.

He promised me that in a couple of weeks, as he has some time off work, he would sort it. We had a discussion where he promised not to buy more storage (he has hoard of empty storage boxes!!!!) and he would actually get rid, not just move. Then today a load of storage arrived. He said it was to move some of the stuff out.

I'm afraid I lost it and told him to take his stuff and GTFO, his young family aren't going to live like this anymore. His response? He's not leaving his house. Not that he didn't want his family apart, not that he didn't want our marriage to end, but that he wouldn't leave his house and things (which he still didn't say when I called him out on it).

So here I am, whilst he is driving off to storage squeezing more crap into it despite promising yet again he wasn't going to do that and knowing he won't fully empty the furniture so I can't get rid of it and he will refill it with crap again, knowing that the crap means more to him than his wife and kids.

What on earth do I do now? I don't really want to leave and take the kids, but I can't have them living like this, learning this or growing up mortified by their parents and home.

[cozietoesie]

Sorry, Lillian but hoarding doesn't work like that, sadly. Bringing in the notion of selling items of value would simply act as a further justification to him for collecting them - and would likely even expand the range of things he's acquiring. (In bad cases, it could lead to someone giving up the day job because they convinced themselves that what they were doing was so valuable and justified that they could do it full time.)

You're not dealing with a rational person here.

[cozietoesie]

Aw it's a hellish situation for her, math. I can't conceive of myself having the strength to follow through on what would be needed. Maybe some others could of course.

[Eatriskier]

Actually, I really don't feel like I've done enough. I've asked him nicely to move things, I've screamed at him to stop, I've negotiated space with him but mainly I've buried my head in the sand about it for years. I've never been really forceful on any consistent basis. I feel I owe it to my kids to at least try getting him to address this properly before forcing such a massive change of life on them. I'm open to the exceptionally real possibility that this isn't going to work but I feel I've cheated them if I don't at least try.

They're about to go to bed, and I'm going to try to have a calm chat with him. Try being the operative word.

[Nanny0gg]

Two thoughts spring to mind having read most of the posts on here -

Most of the hoarders on the programmes are not nice people. This may be due to their mental illness, but some of them are truly vile to the family that wants to help them.

Sometimes their young children follow in their footsteps because that's all they know - learned behaviour.

I think you've got a very hard decision to make Eat. Sorry.

[cozietoesie]

Best of luck then, Eat. Be advised though that he'll likely react in every possible way to appease you but still allow himself to keep on doing what he's doing. You'll probably end this evening thinking that you've achieved something but, sadly, I really doubt whether you will.

I'd write down as much as you can of everything that's said later on - have a notepad by your side and jot. It will not only likely be illuminating at a later date but I'd lay a fairly substantial wager that if he agrees to anything, he'll deny it by tomorrow - or say you 'misunderstood'.

Be prepared, also, for him to say some fairly unpleasant things about yourself (in deflection.) Take them on the chin and write those down also.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

"Actually, I really don't feel like I've done enough. I've asked him nicely to move things, I've screamed at him to stop, I've negotiated space with him but mainly I've buried my head in the sand about it for years. I've never been really forceful on any consistent basis. I feel I owe it to my kids to at least try getting him to address this properly before forcing such a massive change of life on them. I'm open to the exceptionally real possibility that this isn't going to work but I feel I've cheated them if I don't at least try".

Yes but this is still really the "sunken costs" fallacy here at work and this is yet another example.

What more can you realistically do apart from leave and asap?.
Even if you had been consistent, it still would not have worked. Nothing the family do or say works with hoarding. It is more than okay now to draw a line in the sand and say no more.

Talking with him may well prove to be a wasted effort because he cannot or will not see this is a problem.

You cannot rescue and or save someone who does not want to be saved.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I reiterate:-

We think of our years together in a relationship as a cost or specifically a sunk cost. So when we think of breaking up, we say to ourselves ,“I can’t break up. No way am I going to waste the years of relationships we had together.”

By continuing the relationship, we think that we can redeem all of that ‘wasted’ years.

But we fail to heed the trite adage – the damage is done.

We shouldn’t proceed with our decision on breaking up based on how many years or how much of our emotions we invested in a relationship; they are irrelevant.

It’s the future that matters and not the past.

The damage is done; do you really want to tell your children that actually you chose to stay within this longer than you should have because of some fallacy of forcing such a massive change on them by leaving?.

Your ex was I note an alcoholic; you are falling into the self same bear traps as you did with him. You probably tried then to rescue and or save that person then too.

[mathanxiety]

I agree with Cozie make notes of your conversation and recap when it's over. Get him to initial your notes to agree on what you've written.

Be very focused and do not allow him to bog you down in details.

This is not about stuff, collectively or individual bits of it, or where it is or how it clogs the house. This is about his preoccupation and the psychological barrier he has put up against people and relationships and reality (not the stuff that is the physical representation of it).

Yes again -- he will be defensive, possibly evasive and maybe even angry.

Try techniques such as 'I hear that you are XYZ and I sympathise, but moving on, let's talk about ABC...'

[Plsadvise]

I don't know if it helps but my nan has the same problem and has successfully improved things over the last few years - not solved - but much better than it was. Her situation is different though as she lives alone so she isn't impacting other people in the same way as your DP.

The thing that came as the light at the end of the tunnel for her was when we started with a "don't make it worse" approach. IE it was much easier for her to agree "one new tupperwear box in, means one old one out" than it was to tackle everything already there. She found it a lot less traumatic to stick to than contemplating the idea of throwing out huge amounts of stuff.

For us, from then on it mean that everything which went was a real victory as it didn't continually get replaced and slowly/gradually the house is getting less cluttered.

[mathanxiety]

Eatriskier, Is there a part of you that wants to be the person who rescues or carries someone else?

Can you visualise how you might feel if you were in a relationship with someone who gives to you and supports you and to whom you could pour out all of your troubles and they would put their arms around your shoulders and be there 100% for you, someone you can rely on all the time and someone with whom you make plans together and carry them out?

Someone you might feel accountable to just as he would feel accountable to you?

Sometimes when someone is a rescuer they have a good deal of 'controller' in them too. They are more comfortable in a position where they keep tabs on the other person and there isn't really mutual accountability because it runs more in one direction.

I am just pondering how you ended up with two partners who were drowning.

I am also wondering how you ended up with two partners who are basically not available to you and not able to fully participate in a relationship, which is another possibility here.

Is psychological and emotional unavailability in a significant relationship part of a pattern you are familiar with from childhood?

Do you see yourself as a person who can handle challenges? Do you see relationships as a mountaineer sees a mountain?

Again, if someone was available for you, there for you, could sit with you and make plans and discuss household budgets and engage in the give and take of airing real and rational grievances, and having mutual accountability to each other, would you feel comfortable?

Do you think you deserve a solid and positive relationship or do relationships have to be 'complicated'?

[Eatriskier]

Well we chatted, I've kept some notes but I've left the ball in his park about how he actions the changes. I'm not 100% convinced but at least I know now that if I have to walk I have probably tried the best I can. Tbh it was the first time he's admitted he's not in control but he knows he has to want it, and its down to him now. He didn't deflect or get angry which I was thankful for. We will see.

Just need to say that my alcoholic ex was a short lived thing and he was in no way shape or form a partner. The relationship obviously never got off the ground given his behaviour.

[cozietoesie]

Eat, Eat.....

He deflected - by not dealing with it! Now what will happen is that he'll likely move around/out the occasional box (to Goodness knows where) and show willing with the odd damaged CD case (on occasion and to 'keep you happy') but if you come back to him in a few weeks to find out what he's decided, he'll probably deny the reality of what he was supposed to do, or say he's 'still working through it' or something.

I hope I'm real wrong.

[mathanxiety]

But he was an alcoholic when you first started the relationship? And you knew this man had this particular problem from the start?

[HollaAtMeBaby]

Whose house is it? Do you have a car? If so, I would be tempted to shuttle the whole lot to a faraway charity shop or rubbish dump the next time he goes out for a day.

[Eatriskier]

Weirdly I hit him where it hurt accidentally and told him his cupboards were going. That seemed to finally sink it in to him, that I was cutting off his hidey hole. That I couldn't trust him with a cupboard. It seemed to upset him far more than the prospect of getting rid of his stuff, so I suppose I've discovered that the storage is a bigger thing for him than actually filling it with things. He reacted better to chucking his entire book collection away than he did to me suggesting he sold his empty boxes. I suppose the empty boxes are a future prospect for him, whereas existing stuff is just stuff. He has cleared a lot out today, and is doing more now but I know he's probably just hoping this means I'll let him have his cupboards and storage boxes. I won't.

[Eatriskier]

No math, I discovered it later and ended it. Like I said, very short lived thing.

holla Its our house, in both names. Sadly I can't drive or I'd have chucked his stuff out a long time ago without much thought of any psychological impact it had on him.

[cozietoesie]

What did he actually say when you suggested selling his boxes?

[LoisPuddingLane]

Why would someone want to throw their book collection away?

[Eatriskier]

cozie he didn't argue over it, but didn't agree. it was his physical reaction, shock like, that made me realise that its the storage that has his hold more than the stuff. He does have a very big issue. I think I assumed it was the stuff, but the more I think the more I suspect the stuff exists to give some purpose to the storage.

[Eatriskier]

lois I don't want him to actually get rid of every single book but he has to get rid of most because his book collection takes up an entire wall in my house, and is 3-4 books deep per shelf and the cupboards are collapsing under the stress. Plus he has a kindle.

[Eatriskier]

Also he cleared over 10 large boxes out this morning and that only cleared 2 shelves. There are libraries with less books.

[TimeForAnotherNameChange]

So test that theory Eat - skip every single thing of his in the house, and you'll soon find out whether it's stuff vs available storage...

[GarlicAprilShowers]

Its things like books (an entire wall), dvds (the opposite wall), tupperware, storage boxes, stationery, wrapping paper, tools, clothes and other general possessions.

OMG, OP, this is me Also, a bit on the NHS link about unfinished projects ... I live alone, thank goodness, but in a very small house and I've been putting the godawful mess down to my depression & lack of storage space.

I was even asked recently, by a professional, if I have a hoarding problem and went "No, it's not rubbish, it's just stuff I haven't tidied up yet ..." Argh!

So sorry: I've no concrete advice for you as you evidently are dealing with an addiction-style disorder, in that he will literally perceive you as rejecting him rather than his 'stuff' ... and the mechanisms of addiction will lead him to feel he can't live without that, so if he has to choose ... :(

I hope he will see that his collecting habit's out of hand, and seek proper support for all your sakes. Meanwhile, thank you!!! I've just failed to give up smoking again; I am NOT letting a fresh addiction get hold of me as well!

... ... Anybody want half a dozen unused lampshades, a thousand books, lots of electrical parts, hundreds of screws & fixings, pairs of curtains with only one altered, and loads of other stuff I haven't seen for so long that I've forgotten what's there????!

[LoisPuddingLane]

I just don't see a book collection as hoarding. Books are wonderful things, in any number. The other stuff, fair enough.

[GarlicAprilShowers]

I don't have space for them, Lois :( Most are still in boxes from 2 moves ago.