Sure DSis is going to ask me for money- saying no with out causing bad feeling and giving constructive advice. LONG SORRY!

[rockingdino]

This is quite long, as i want to give you a full picture of the situation so I can get the most suitable advice.

Normally my DSis and I go to visit our mum on saturdays and spend the day together with her and our respective children. DSis was not there this week as attending a party and Mum told me that the previous week (I was away) DSis had mentioned to my mum that her finances were a bit of a mess and she was going to ask me to lend her money to clear her overdraft and some credit card/store card debt.

I am not sure of the amount however Mum said thousands. Apparently she has an overdraft of £1500 which is always near the limit, 2 credit cards that she has maxed out to the tune of £2000/£3000 on each plus some store cards. She asked to use my mums credit card to pay the £600 balance remaining on a 3 week trip to attend her husbands sisters wedding end of august/start of september, this is apparently her part of the cost of this holiday, Mum declined as she is worried about her not being ale to pay it back.

I normally don't see my sister apart from a saturday but she has invited me to go out with her youngest child and my youngest child on wednesday and I am sure she is going to ask me for money. I am fortunate enough to be in a position to lend her some money, which she is aware of so I will feel bad saying no. I need to find a way to say no so it doesn't cause bad feeling, as she knows i am in a position to lend I am sure she will not be able to understand why.

I know NO is a complete sentence and all that but she is my little sister. I feel my NO needs to be explained in a way which will help her with her finances.

This is why I do not want to lend to her:

• A couple of years ago her Husbands mother passed away, leaving around 85-90k to EACH him and his 2 siblings, the minimum (25K + a little equity from previous house) was spent to get a mortgage and the payments are nearly £850 a month. The rest of the money has been wasted, concerts, holidays, Inc trip for her husband to cricket tour thing in AUS which cost about 10k, eating out, weekends away in expensive hotels. People who have 85-90k should not be in debt 2.5 years on, the spending is reckless.

-Her and her husband run finances separately, He works full time and does a lot of overtime, pays the mortgage and food bill and sky bill. the remaining bill are my sisters responsibility despite her not being at work, she was diagnosed with MS a couple of years ago, she spent the first year and a half in part time employment but it was too hard for her and she had to keep having time off sick. She gets DLA but sacrificed this for a mobility car or she would not be able to go anywhere (3yr/4yr children). As she sacrificed the DLA for the car the only income she has is child benefit and child tax credit to pay for council tax, water, electric, gas, her mobile, her clothes and hair cuts, children's clothes and hair cuts. Am sure this is where the debt is coming from as what she has coming in doesn't cover the out goings so she has used overdraft/credit cards/ store cards.

-Her husband runs different races nearly every week at the moment, he is apparently incapable of getting himself to his races on public transport or a lift with one of his many running buddies and needs to be driven by my sister with the children in tow, the wait where ever he is running and drive him home. this could mean driving average of an hour there and back (sometimes a bit more or less) and she is expected to put petrol in the car as it is hers. She cannot afford to do this.

-Next weekend they are going to Brighton so he can run the go Friday and won't return until sunday eve, spending 2 nights in a hotel/ going out on the sat for the day/ eating out. Same for London marathon whole weekend, hotels, eating out and a theatre trip. This will be paid for by him (apart from petrol) but in my opinion if you insist on running finances as they do if one partner doesn't have money and in debt then that money would be better spent clearing the debt.

-The wedding holiday that she asked to use my mums credit card for (which totalled 5K) has been partly paid for (3k) by her husbands brother about a year ago under the understanding that it was to be paid back monthly starting Jan this year. They are now not speaking as the money isn't being paid back but clearly with all the weekends away with the running they have money, it is not as if the literally can't afford it.
I don't want to fall out with my sister if she didn't pay me back.

I want to explain that these reasons are why I can't lend her money. And discuss with her what is going on with her finances to help her see that they are a family and should really run the finances accordingly. I am also sure that her husbands uses credit cards a fair bit as even though he does a lot of overtime I can't see how it would be enough to totally cover 'his' bills, personal expenditure and all these trips now the inheritance is gone and I am worried the at some point maybe not to far down the line they will bother be in financial shit and maybe loose their house.

If it was not for my 2 DNs I wouldn't be as concerned as I am. I can just see my 2 lovely DNs loosing the home they love, maybe have to change school if unable to stay in area, be forced to re home their 3 cats should the house be lost. So I really need to say something constructive/helpful to help her make her situation better rather than bailing her out, risk her not paying me back, and running up more debts because the issues which caused them in the first place are still there.

Sorry it is so long, thanks for reading and I hope you lovely ladies can give me some good advice to help my sister out

Thanks for your replies everyone.

I was planning on doing something with the money like kids savings/ISA for ourselves, I suppose if I do it sooner than I was going to I would not be lying that it is tied up, which makes me feel slightly better.

Hopefully I can try to find out why his is happening and help her to find the strength to talk to her husband about it. If they are willing to BOTH sort out the problems together i wouldn't mind doing as some posters suggested and pay for some things for the DNs, they both do swimming lessons so I could and would happily pay for that if I know that they are cutting back and using the money saved by me paying for said lessons to clear the debt. I could also get some shoes and a few clothing items for them too to make sure they don't go with out.

Once bed time for kids has happened I am going to go and look at womens aid for some info too hopefully they will have some more info on how to approach someone in similar circumstances.

I am quite sure my DSis isn't an MNetter so I am not worried about her seeing this.

thanks all

Shake your head regretfully, and say that your money is fully committed for the next year, can you help her in any other way? Then you can ask where on earth their money has gone?

I don't imagine it will make much difference whatever you say, though. She's going to hear what she wants and that'll be it. I really hope I'm wrong.

I feel so sorry for your sister.
MS is a horrible disease and she must really worry about the future, being the mum of little ones.
Lending her the money won't help- unless you look on it as a gift.
I'd say 'unfortunately my spare money is tied up and can't be accessed'.
If your Mum could do it you can too.
Try and talk to her..... perhaps you and your Mum together. Let her know her husband is not pulling his weight.
She may be getting verbal / emotional abuse from her husband.
My dh lent money (thousands) to a friend. Supposed to be paid back last July. So far we have got nothing.
But I hear friend's wife has had a few lovely holidays!!! And she spends money like water.
When dh and friend meet (rarely) not a mention of the money.

I think you just have to be honest and say that you are sorry but you can't help her as what you have saved is for your children and to provide a safety net should you need it and you have planned your finances accordingly. Depending on how the conversation goes you could then go on to say her husband is not being fair expecting her to pay for things as she isn't working and does she need help dealing with things, that don't involve giving her money. She could go on a debt management plan or get advice from stepchange debt charity as well.

How does she know you would have the money to lend anyway?

Can you say you've just paid a chunk off your mortgage to get a better rate etc?

I kind of disagree with everyone.

Its your sister. She has ill health and cant work. Shes running up debts just for basic living. I know she had the Inheritance and blew it but still. Its hardly crime of the century.

I agree her relationship sounds crap and an odd way of working things but npt helping probably woukdnt change anything.

If it were my sister and I was in a fortunate position financially id give her some to keep. Ok maybe not the thousands you think she needs but certainly some.

But Carmen by giving her money it is just staving off the inevitable. She is going to fall due to this debt at some point and the Op paying it off will just put it off for another couple of years. The OP will have lost her money and the DSis will still be in a bad situation.

Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you realise how bad things are, and this may be the time for the DSis, not just with money but with her marriage too.

I'd ask her how she plans to pay you back? She's clearly not going to be able to. I'd point this out to her when she outlines whatever her 'plans'are. Then I'd say I can't afford to give away money. Having to think how she'll pay you back may force her to confront her problem.
Then I'd offer to help her and her husband do a budget and work out a repayment plan. I am an accountant though and do this for family and friends a good bit so it wouldn't be odd.

Yes MS is a horrible thing; it is immensely frustrating not being able to work when you want to, or do things which others don't even think about.. You still have to live within your means. The world still doesn't owe you a living. I know what it's like as I have MS too. It pisses me off enormously.

I have a sister that I love dearly and I would do anything for her - in this case, I would have to consider 'tough love' as what is BEST FOR HER. Don't give her money - I say give as you know full well it will never be seen again. If you have to white lie to keep the peace then do that 'I am sorry, I don't have access to my capital I have put it up for the children and to stop me from frittering it away!' Then use that as a prompt to start a conversation on the reality of what is going on.

I still disagree! !
Im.not talking about paying off all the debts but id give some if I could afford it.

I wouldnt give a lecture about finances but would support her if she wantes to discuss. I wouldnt, as an adult, want someone patronising me.

I clearly have a different view as I dont massively agree in saving money for my children's future (for when they are adults). Unless I had lots of spare cash of course. I dont however, so if my sister was in trouble in the present, then id help her. Not at the expence of looking after my children now of course, but im certainly not planning on putting aside a nest egg for when they are adulys.

We leant money to my DB, or at least we paid off something which had to be paid off when he couldn't do it, but his attitude now is sort of, out of sight (the debt) out of mind. Her forgets we ever gave him it. And a bit of 'well, you can afford it'.

It is going to be very hard to get it back as he is not good with money. Perhaps if I had earned the money I might say forget it, but as a SAHP my DH worked for the money, I can hardly just give it away.

It will prob end in tears, but then, I shouldn't have offered to help out in the first place.

OP, your DSis might not like having you doing her favours by buying her DCs shoes etc, sounds like charity.

Same here. 2 friends, another Dsis and me clubbed together and helped out Dsis and her waste of space DP to avoid them and their 2 DCs being turfed out of their home. None of us ever got anything back, and it has soured relations rather. OK, we could all aford to do it, but still it rankles.

There was no way we could have let them become homeless though. its all very difficult.

Tell your Dsis that it is already all tied up (ISA's etc as you have planned). The big red flag for me is that they've had money and are still in debt, not only that but another relative has lent them money and they aren't even paying that off.

carmen but dont you see that giving money to someone who is living way above their means isnt actually helping them? If anything, it will encourage the over spending as they have no reason to cut back if people continue to bail them out.

The best thing for this sister is to be forced to look at her outgoings compared to income, and the fact that her DH is refusing to pool their income and then live life according to what she can afford.

Bailing out someone in a crisis is one thing, I have had to borrow money from my parents in the past when H lost his job and didnt get his owed salary or redundancy through for weeks. But we paid them back. Bailing someone out when they have a track record of reckless spending and are showing no inclination to cut back on that is a fools errand and will do nothing to help anyone.

Yes I do see that it is not helping in the long run and really it's the OP's BIL that needs sorting out.

I guess seeing it from how I wpuld do things with my pwn sister.

I would help my sis out if I had large savings or even of I came into money and she would do the same for me.

for instance if I had 3 grand spare and by spare I mean not saving for anything particular and it wasnt affecting my day to day living or family holidays etc id lend it to her. I wouldnt just keep in in a savings account if she was struggling. I just dont live my life like that.

i think i'd tell her that i thought she was in a financially abusive marriage and that whatever happens, i'd be there for her.

unfortunately you don't have access to money to lend her and the best case is that her dh sorts it out.

i guess i would see where the conversation went but it sounds like an awful situation.

i will get flamed for this but hopefully as it's the last thing i'll say no-one will actually read. but she might feel a lot better physically when she's out of this abusive marriage. i'm not saying this wanker caused her ms. i'm saying that stressful situations esp. in your home certainly don't contribute to your health.

good luck. this is a really hard one.

Eddie I have read it and I think you are right.

carmen would you be ok with giving as opposed to lending? I would give to my sister, but she would pay me back. I have been given money by my parents but I have paid them back. This DSis would not pay back, would you be ok with that? I wouldnt.

Perhaps the DSis would benefit from counseling of some sort because I would find having an illness like MS v hard to come to terms with especially if I had young DCs and this might be affecting her financial behaviour. Such as feeling you deserve some fun (holidays), want life to be good (so don't tackle DP's behaviour) etc. Would she consider that OP?

By all means "lend" your sister the money but be prepared never to see it again. Are you in a position to give money away?

It sounds like there are lots of issues at play here and giving her money will only block a small hole in the damn for a very short while. It actually isn't helping her as at some point her and her husband need to address what is really going on. I suggest that if she does ask you say no but ask if you can help in any other way and then see what she has to say.

It may be that she won't talk about the full problem in which case you can't do anything else.

Thanks for all your replies while I have been away!

Saw my sister this morning. She did indeed ask me for money. She said she needed to pay of some overdraft and credit card debt to the tune of nearly 7k in total, she asked me for around half of the total amount. I asked her how she had managed to insure such a high level of debt and how come her husband can't help her out of it seeing as he had 85-90k a little over 2 years ago.

Apparently the money is all gone. one of the credit cards (2k) is from when they married shortly after her husbands death while waiting for house sale which was the inheritance. Her husband had told her to put xyz on the card or they couldn't afford the wedding and her would pay it off when the inheritance came through but he never did. The rest of the debt is from not having enough to cover the bills she has to cover plus her and the 2 children's expenses so she has had to rely on credit/store card and overdraft.

I expressed my concern that if I lent her some money that as the situation with how her/her husband run the money in their relationship she would be unable to pay me back as she would still have the same level of outgoings. I asked how/why they are having the weekends away with his running if there is a considerable amount of debt and that that money could be used to reduce it. She got upset and said something about he isn't going to give me his money to pay my debt, I did point out that they are a family and that really money should be seen as such. I said that in my opinion that she was being abused as he has money for weekends away connected to his hobby and she doesn't have enough money to meet her and the children's needs.

She left upset to go and sit in her car in the car park (were in a soft play) and the children continued to play. Thankfully she came back in and said can we go back to mine for lunch.

Once at mine she revealed that he is also quite horrible to her verbally especially when she is having bad days with her MS which restricts what she can do. Also if she doesn't drive him round to all his activities he is verbally horrible to her. She said she has driven (45-60 mins) several times and waited around for his run to finish when she hasn't felt physically safe to due to her MS as he has been so horrible to/about her she felt she had no choice but to do it.

After talking for quite a bit more I we have established that she wants to leave. she feels the environment she is is makes her feel worse mentally and makes her physical symptoms worse. She felt so good when he was at some cricket tour in Aus over xmas and new year and then worse on his return.

She feels she can't leave for financial reasons. I had a look at tax credits calculator/ income support rates/housing and council tax benefit and it turns out she would be entitled to more than she thought. She could also claim child maintenance haven't checked the calculator but I believe it is 20% for 2 children? want to see it this is applied to the over time too or not.

Luckily my DH is very good friends with someone who has a reasonable commercial and residential property portfolio so he is going to ask for him to rent her a place if she definitely decides to leave (is going to think about it for a few days and carry on as normal). I know normally the advice is not to leave the marital home but she will not be mentally strong enough to stay put and try and get him out/divorce him. Plus it is a 3 storey house and she struggles with all the stairs. I told her I would sort out deposit 1st months rent if she wants to go so that isn't a barrier to stop her leaving. I also said I will pay off her £1500 overdraft if she leaves so she starts at 0 with a clean slate. I wouldn't expect her to pay me back for these. I said I will pay for the DNs swimming until the end of the year for which she was very grateful and relieved.

I told her to find out about cancelling her and the children's place on the wedding holiday. She may possible get some money back?? there is a joint account, but her made her give him her card so she couldn't spend his money(!) this is used foraying the mortgage from and nothing else she believes. I told her on the day you leave she should go to the branch and take out half of anything in there (going to get legal advice regarding this). I also said to just keep up the minimum repayments on the store and credit cards and not use them (if she needs help to do this then I will do so). I said that if she divorces she would get at least 50% of the equity of the house (50% being around 20k, before any fees) and she can then use that to clear her debts and have a safety net of savings.

When I said about the house equity she said that before they purchased this house her made her write something and sign it to say that in the event of divorce that she will only be entitled to 30% of the equity. She does not know where this paper is. I am not sure if this will be held up in the event of divorce or not? We are going to make appointment to see a solicitor to ask about this, taking half of the money in the joint account if there is any and also if she would be able to take some household items (bed, wardrobe, drawers, tv, sofa and the like).

When she has somewhere to rent we will get a van to take hers and the children's belongings when he is working a normal day with overtime so he will be gone all day. probably leave a note.

Going to be a busy time ahead but I am so relieved that my sister is going to get out of that relationship for her own sake and her daughters will not grow up learning that that is how a relationship is and end up there themselves.

thanks to everyone

That offer of support is worth far more than a one-off £7K payment that subsidises her DH/goes down the drain.

Good for you OP.

(DH = dreadful H)

Good for you, OP! That's absolutely terrific news.

I don't want to rain on the parade, because I think you've made massive progress here, but be prepared for the possibility that she may do some backsliding on this, and to be uncertain and even to go back to him. She was clearly opening up and realising a lot of this for the first time, which can be a really confusing experience. So don't put any cash behind this plan for a bit.

That was s really tough conversation to have so well done. Your sister is lucky to have you.

You're amazing, OP. I hope she manages to LTB soon with your help.