Affairs

[greenjug]

I had an affair last summer. Since then I've read a lot of threads relating to affairs. Some to do with those who've had affairs but mainly from the perspective of the cheated on partner. I've learned from them. But, there are some things routinely said, both on threads and websites dedicated to the subject, that I'd like to challenge.

I've started a new thread as I don't want to hijack anyone else's nor get involved in one particular real life example.

Things that get said which are not true:
'If you have an affair with a colleague it will be obvious to people at work' - not necessarily
'Affairs are always found out in the end' - not true
'My DP is not the cheating kind' - you don't know that (see above)
'I am not the cheating kind' - maybe not but that doesn't mean that nobody who has said that about themselves has ever gone on to have an affair

Some of the things said about people who have been unfaithful are patronising and treat unfaithful partners as if they are one homogenous group. That is no more true of the cheater than it is of the cheated on and isn't helpful to anyone including the cheated on partner.

If the unfaithful partner says their affair was a 'mistake' it doesn't necessarily mean they're saying it happened 'by accident'. You can make an active decision to do something but realise later that it was wrong (a mistake). When I sold a house just before it doubled in value I didn't do it 'by accident' but it turned out to be a mistake all the same.

If there is a 'script' maybe it's because sometimes it's true. Like a cliché becomes a cliché because so often it is true.

If your partner has an affair it does not automatically absolve you from any responsibility for how your relationship got to that point. I say 'automatically' deliberately - sometimes of course there is no responsibility and the cheater is just an arse.

By saying this I'm not saying that if your partner has an affair it's your fault, it was their decision for which they are entirely responsible. I'm not talking excuses, I'm talking reasons. Every affair happens for a reason (or more likely several) and the reason isn't always that the cheater is a scumbag.

Right - I'll put on my hard hat now and dive for cover...

Please can someone explain to me how stating that infidelty isn't as bad as murder advance this dicussion? It's a pointless comment.

If I stub my toe and am hopping about cussing in pain, it would be stupid, not to mention infuriating, for someone to tell me I was making a fuss over nothing unless I had actually broken my leg. And I retain my right to think someone is an arse for dropping litter even whilst being aware that 'at least they haven't stabbed a pensioner'.

Oh and unfaithful people are of course not evil per se. But evil is essential to do something unpleasant and self-serving. Stop with the silly extremes of language please.

ISN'T! isn't essential.....

I've seen much worse language used on here than evil to describe cheaters. There is extreme language on almost all threads about cheating. And most posters agree that the cheating is fundamental to the cheaters character and that they will never change or be decent humans in any way.

And yes, I think that generally cheaters are discussed on here as if their behaviour was criminal.

Well that raises two points doesn't it really.

1. It proves that it is such a fundamentally cruel thing to do that to cause such a reponse. It should give a cheat pause rather than making them mock and denigrate the betrayed.

1. The people who talk about it in this way would normally tend to be those who are in the throes of discovery or soon after, and they won't be rational or calm. Would you blame them.

But generally, I dont agree, I have rarely seen anyone here say that cheating is as bad as murder.

I don't blame anybody for losing the rag when faced with betrayal, I would do it too.

But that doesn't mean that any attempt to discuss affairs with objectivity is crass or insensitive.

How are you doing, Orm?

I'm doing pretty well thanks morris. Life does have a habit of throwing more crap at you to distract you from the crap you were worrying about in the first place

I do agree about objectivity. But not to be expected from people in the midst of it - I did try to remain objective but I am sure I failed utterly at times. And it is most unsavoury for those guilty of hurting their partners to complain that others arent able to be calm and objective. 'Yeah, OK so I punched you in the mouth, are you telling me YOU never did anything wrong, stop bleating FFS, I didn't murder you!'

Funny thing is one of the posts below here mentioned that they were a betrayed spouse BEFORE they became an OW. Hence their ability to see affairs more objectively. I was an OW (sort of) long before H's affair and while I used to be able to view the subject calmly, its harder to do now. I think having a situation forced on you tends to make you frustrated, and mad as hell.

Don't know what the point of this thread is.

You're basically staying that different types of affairs happen, for different reasons blah, blah, blah.

If you find yourself wanting to be with person B when you're actually with person A, end with partner A before embarking in another relationship with B. simple.

It would save a lot of heartache and stress. Anyone that cheats is just selfish in my book. It's typical 'cake and eat it' cliche.

I'm fed up with posts/threads which try to justify inexcusable behaviour. Cheating isn't ok and never will be. End of.

I suspect the point of the thread is to brag. Ie I'm so special a married man risked his marriage for me ect.

I suspect this is a 'light the blue touch paper and stand back' thread. The OP hasn't commented since her first post and is probably relishing the responses

People coming on here for support get support. Well I'm shocked I tell you. Before we support them we should make sure they weren't somehow at fault. Giving them a good grilling would definitely be the best thing to do when they are betrayed and hurt.

Anyway, the only reason I can think for an affair is if there are serious abuse issues.

Adulterers have to do quite a lot of doublethink to give themselves permission to betray.

The pretence that an affair isn't so bad can be pursued in many ways. Including criticising those who see betrayal as simply wrong. Or in thinking that their circumstances are special/unique/outside the normal script. They really aren't.

Lying cheats will always manage to justify their behaviour to themselves somehow. I will never understand though why they are incapable of ending one relationship before starting another. It's utterly selfish.

Not one person here has sad that an affair isnt selfish or wrong, though.

My problem is with writing people off as 'forever cunts' because they have cheated. I dont think it IS that black and white, sorry.

I have very good friends who have been unfaithful (as well as friends who have been betrayed). Human beings are often frail, flawed, make bad decisions and do shitty things to each other. Important to own your shit and learn from it, yes? Forever a bastard cheater? Not necessarily. No.

I haven't commented till now as this is the first time I've been back on MN since starting this thread.

Some have clearly not read what I wrote but seen what they want to see instead which isn't a surprise.

Just to reiterate a couple of things:

Yes, affairs can be discovered years after the event. But, you can't know about affairs that are never known about by anyone other than the two people involved because that's the point - nobody else knows about them.

Yes, people can know about work affairs that those involved think are secret. But, that doesn't mean all work based affairs are known about. Mine wasn't, of that I'm absolutely positive but I'm not going to explain why.

I'm not saying that my experience is the only way things happen. I'm just saying that my experience proves to me that things presented as fact about 'the way things are' are not actually always true.

Best wishes to everyone struggling with any aspect of their relationship(s) - it's bloomin' tough at times

Grass I couldn't agree more with your post.

There is categorically never, ever any excuse for cheating on anyone. If you don't like the relationship - leave it. No cheated on spouse has "responsibility for how your relationship got to that point". They might have responsibility for problems in the relationship, but you talk and work on those problems and if they are irreconcilable then you leave.

If the ow/om knows that the person they want to shag is in a relationship/marriage, what is the problem of having some self respect and saying that you won't embark in a relationship with them until they finish the one they are already in

I agree ShakespearesUglySister. No excuses. Doesn't mean there are no reasons though.

Might have some 'responsibility for problems in the relationship' is exactly what I mean by responsibility for how the relationship got to that point.

And yes, what you describe is what people should do but like Grass says 'Human beings are often frail, flawed, make bad decisions and do shitty things to each other'.

greenjug I really don't understand why you labour the point about some affairs not being discovered. Are you saying that it isn't wrong if you aren't caught? If you are in a relationship with someone and you both agree that you are committed & exclusive, then cheating is dishonest and cruel. You have the choice to be honest but you choose to sleep with another person and keep this from your partner. It's dishonest, selfish and cruel however you package up the excuses.

This is the thing that pisses me off more than anything about this sort of shit. They're miserable , they're lonely blah They're entitled to extra fucks but God forbid they're spouses do the same. Are people really so arrogant they believe their spouse never get any offers , or interest ? Are people so arrogant they think their spouse is totally satisfied ?

When this happened to me my response was simple . Deal off . If I meet someone and feel like fucking him , I will do. Open marriage. If you don't like it , fuck off. Tough shit.

Here are Esther Perel's thoughts on the subject www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/03/esther_perel_on_affairs_spouses_in_happy_marriages_cheat_and_americans_don.html

Some people can justify any sort of bad behaviour. Not convinced I'm afraid. Not saying we are all perfect but let's not make excuses for cheating on partners.

no, there is no excuse, and the fact that it is incredibly common is not reason or support for betrayal, nor does it help the injured party. I find Perel's views interesting not because I agree with them and their blasé frenchness, but because they challenge ideas of intimacy and sexuality and respect and marriage that we grow up with certain assumptions about.

Completely the wrong place to post anything other than negative comments about affairs. (understandably)

No one here wants to understand how an affair could come about other than the fact that the cheater is a lying cheating bastard, they are mostly the victims.

Of course its not black and white. Money and children are what are keeping many families together.

Affairs are not right, the people involved (and quite often it takes three not two) know it but few people are martyrs. There is alot of soul searching, and guilt, especially when children are involved.

Of course affairs are wrong, of course you should do the right thing before you reach that point but thats not how it works. An affair is something that starts off relatively innoculously and escalates. I am not making excuses its just the fact of the matter.

There are lots of reasons why affairs happen. Like it or not they are quite often a symptom rather than the cause which I appreciate maybe a pill far too bitter to swallow here. I am not apportioning blame to any party.