DH and I having a terrible argument over euthanasia

[Hedgehead]

A very elderly relative of mine (my family) has been in a minimally conscious coma now for a couple of weeks. She is still breathing alone, but cannot do anything else. Consultant has told us there is 99.999% no coming back from this point and has given us a range of (heavy inverted commas) "treatment" options. Eg, withdrawing feeding and having her "feed herself," an 8 hour operation with a strong GA that she has 95% chance of not waking up from etc... you get the drift.

My family have all been very upset and torn over the decision of which "treatment" course to take and it's not something we've entered into lightly. I was very close to her and have been going frequently with DH to sit by her bedside in hospital.

We reached a unanimous family decision last week to withdraw feeding (not fluids), increase pain relief and allow her the death she wanted (she made it very clear if she was ever in this position she would want to die as quickly as possible.)

But guess who is not happy? DH. Out of nowhere. He has started picking fights about it, challenging me about the decision, accusing me of not caring for her, of wanting to "get her death over with" so I can get on with my "busy schedule." He has told me he finds my attitude "disturbing."

I have reminded him that as supportive and wonderful as he has been to my entire family, it is not his decision to make or judge once it is made. I told him that it was not about 'him,' that it is his job to play a supportive role in this, and when it is his parents or elderly relatives are dying, I will go along with whatever they want and be supportive.

He's just stormed out. I am first of all devastated that this is happening to my relative and now that's compounded by my DH's attitude to me and his accusations which make me out to be a monster. AIBU?

Perhaps OP is 2 generations down from this relative gertie if one gave birth at 30, another 35 and OP was 39 years old that would work, or are you only allowed to be close to grandparents etc if you know them for longer? !

OP fwiw I don't think you have done anything wrong, if you have travel insurance and don't want to go away then you may be able to get some money back but I would probably still want to go in your shoes. A relative of mine went on holiday when their parent was getting towards the end-no indication of when it would happen though- and it happened while they were away. Didn't change anything - they needed the break though.

Maybe speak to your family about his reaction - and get some backup for yourself inrl that you know you are doing the right thing

30 years

I would expect the OP is at least one or two generations down given that the relative is 95 years old.
Great Uncle or Aunt maybe?
Equivalent of a Grandparent.
Maybe a Great Grand Parent?

My point is the DHs position, it really is a family decision, and he isn't really in a position to say he is her family.

Your DH does not have the moral high ground in this at all - you and your family are going through a horrendous time and his decision to pick fights with you over this sort of thing are not the actions of someone with the moral high ground.

Quantity of life over quality of life. He isn't remotely able to make that sort of judgement - whereas her family, who know her well and have had those discussions with her when she was able to have them, know her choices and her preferences. It isn't about doing what he thinks is the right thing. It's about doing what your relative would have wanted were she able to express an opinion. That's proper family advocacy - and making the decision you know she would have wanted even if it's the one you don't like - that's the action of someone with the moral high ground.

It sounds like you are making choices with her wishes in mind even though this may lead to an earlier death (but hopefully a peaceful and dignified one) which will obviously be heart breaking for you as a family - but you're doing what she has expressed a wish for in spite of the emotional pain you know it will cause.

As far as the holiday goes - if you go, will it change the outcome? No. If you don't go, will it change the outcome? No, but you'll have had more time to sit around feeling miserable, having straw man arguments thrown at you by your husband and be potentially thousands of pounds out of pocket. What would your relative want you to do? Go on holiday, enjoy the sun/sand/views/wherever and raise a glass to her and wish her well wherever she is now (depending on your belief system, I'm generalising a lot here!) Or would she want you to put your life on hold (and how long for? how long is deemed appropriate by your DH?) and mope around until some suitable period has passed, after which are you allowed to smile again?

I agree it sounds like your DH is scared of something. You probably do need to be able to sit down and have an honest talk about why he's reacting the way he is, how it's affecting you (and him) and talk about how he would like to be treated should something similar happen to him.

I encounter grieving families and this sort of situation (thankfully not too often) as part of working on Intensive Care. What you are doing is advocating for your relative as best you can. What he is doing is trying to hang on to something, or anything, so as not to have to deal with the prospect of death. Your approach is probably better.

wishing you strength.

Oh! and just reread the title properly.

Withdrawing active management and going for a palliative care approach is not euthanasia by any definition.

It sounds to me as if you and your family have the 'moral high ground' here, being that you are abiding by the wishes of your relative. These situations are never easy, even when everyone agrees that the best thing to do is let a loved one go as easily and swiftly as possible to avoid prolonged suffering.

But the situation you are in with your DH is why it is so very important that people put their wishes in writing. Everyone should have some type of 'living will' where they specify what, if any, life-prolonging treatment they do or do not want.

And you know, I'm a great believer in what a friend and I referred to at the time as the 'in-law club'. We both had very ill parents-in-law at around the same time. We felt that the decisions rested with the family and that as daughters-in-law our job was to support them in what they felt was the best decision for their loved ones. We would offer suggestions but when the decision was made, our job was to shut up and support our husbands & in-laws, regardless of whether we agreed with the decisions they made or not.

I think your husband sounds like a jerk, sorry op.

Instead of being supportive, he is undermining you and making you feel bad.

It's your family's choice. Everybody agrees. He doesn't get a say. Maybe that's his problem - he thinks his opinion is important. How arrogant.

Does he always act like his opinion is better than others?

If someone has lost capacity to make decisions for the moment, the medical team have to act in their best interests.

They should always talk to the relatives to find out what the patient's wishes were likely to have been, but actually things like the withdrawal of artificial feeding are ultimately a medical decision in the patient's best interests. The consultant is not being very fair by making you all feel that you are deciding this alone. But it's not uncommon.

Would your dh find it easier to know that this is a decision between your relative and the medical team, with your input as relatives being absolutely crucial given her lack of capacity but ultimately not the final say?

I actually think it's none of his business.

I think you should stop telling him he isn't family and stop hinting he doesn't have a sat. If he'd have been reassured that he is family and does have a say, he might have accepted the group decision more readily.

I agree with a PP that the situation is forcing your DH to confront mortality and is probably bringing a lot of fears about death generally & his own death specifically to the surface. I realise he's behaving badly, his timing is poor and he should be supporting the family but something has struck a nerve and I think he needs to talk to someone about his anxiety. Not necessarily you, of course.

We had to make the same decision about my grandma in 2010. I can honestly say that it was the most painful, gut wrenchingly difficult decision I've ever had to participate in making. But it was the right decision. She would not have wanted to have stayed hooked up to a machine just for her body to have been "kept alive".

It sounds like your DH is hurting, but this is not the time for arguments and this is not the time for him to take things out on you.

When you go through something like this you can come up with the most random thoughts and do the most random things, so talking about your holiday and what to do is not surprising at all. I'd find myself awake at stupid o'clock and suddenly remember that, for example, I needed to pay a bill. So I got up and did it, almost without thinking and as if it was the most normal thing to do when I should have been asleep or my mind should have been on other things. So please, please don't beat yourself up for thinking about "normal life". Perhaps it's partly your mind going into "protect" mode, although you do also have to think about practicalities at some point too. So it's more than understandable on both fronts.

I wish you didn't have to go through this

Is there anything I can do to help? I'm on the outskirts of NW London if it helps?

Could his comments come from loving and not wanting her to die? I think sometimes it's hard to understand the depth of feeling for someone who has married into a family. They have to right to comment but can obviously tell you how he really feels? Has he had to deal with death much?

no right to comment

Your dh is being an idiot.
I'd he always hysterical, ignorant, undermining you, two faced and argumentative? In your shoes I would use my time carefully and reflect on his behaviour and your marriage now.

I think grief is a very difficult thing, and each family deals with it very differently.

My grandfather-in-law died very recently. In my own family, this would be a huge deal, and everyone would be weeping and wailing for weeks. (We are very open emotionally, and my mother and sister in particular are very emotionally dramatic, bordering on hysterical). In my DH's family, his mum was out wine tasting the next day, and has been out socialising and generally enjoying herself since it happened. I think there is an element of relief there that it is over.

A horrible, judgemental part of me thinks: 'They are emotionally dead! They don't feel anything!" I have to remind myself that there is no right way to grieve, and just because their way is different doesn't necessarily mean it's 'wrong'.

Now your situation is a bit different- it sounds like your family are kind of half way between the two of our families (I'm tempted to say 'more balanced' but every family has its idiosyncrasies!!). I think your DH needs to recognise the same thing that I've realised. However big an emotional deal such things are in his own family, they are handled a bit differently in yours. However matter-of-fact and practical you all are about discussing this subject, it doesn't mean that you don't care, or that you aren't terribly sad about the loss.

Without wanting to sound like the worst kind of armchair psychologist, I also wonder if there are some unresolved issues about mortality, death, and grieving in his attitude. He is clearly experiencing a great deal of anger - and he may not himself understand why this is. He clearly recognises at some level that it's odd, because he's only acting on it at home, not in public. I think I would be tempted to sit him down, very calmly, and explain that there isn't a right or a wrong family culture in these things, and ask him to think about why he feels such extreme emotion about it - in an understanding rather than a judgemental spirit. Perhaps a heart-to-heart about grief and death might bring you both back onto the same page.

I've been through a similar situation with my mum. Yes, it's very difficult emotionally. I don't actually think it is difficult morally, though, in cases like this (& my mum's) where the sick / dying person has made their wishes very clear beforehand. And I definitely agree with those who have pointed out that this is NOT euthanasia.

Clearly for whatever reason OP's DH is struggling with this. I would respond simply by stressing that we need to respect x's clearly expressed wishes. Probably best to avoid arguments along the lines of "you're not family, you have no right to an opinion", though - I don't see the need to be so inflammatory during a tough time for everyone.

And yes, it's really important to have these conversations with loved ones &, even better, put down in writing what you would want in a situation like this. DH & I have both talked about it, my mum wrote it all down in a "living will" document when she found out she was terminally ill. I don't think these have much legal force (could be wrong on that, not sure) but it meant that we were able to be clear when we talked to the doctors. And her palliative care was excellent.

Death makes people behave very strangely, in my experience.

I think this is probably not so much about your relative as about the associations which your husband is making: What would he do if this happened to one of his parents? What would you do if this happened to him? Also, he is staring at mortality in the face, which is a hard thing to have to do.

You are in a very stressful situation and he's freaking out, basically.

The decisions to be made are a moral Catch-22. There are no winners.

However, your DH's reaction doesn't reconcile. I fear he has a more deep-seated dissatisfaction and has used this particular topic to "pick a fight". I would question what is the root of his moral stance and why has he not voiced his opinion in other family forums.

To those who think he needs to mind his own business, you really do need to get into the 21st Century (well 20th even would be an improvement!!)

I don't know much about these situations but have the hospital offered any form of counselling or can you look into this? Sounds like you've both reached a standstill and aren't getting anywhere but it seems to have unleashed some issues in his life while you seem to be taking the healthy and balanced view.

Re the holiday, if you can't get the money back, why cancel at all? Keep it booked... Ya never know, you might fancy a holiday on your own when it's over

I'm right here in 2014, thanks.

What makes it his business? Her family knows what she wanted. She articulated what she wanted to close members of her family - not to him. Maybe this situation has brought his deep seated feelings and emotions to the surface that he needs to deal with. If so, cry me a river. Anyone with an ounce of compassion should realise that it isn't the time. He shouldn't get to tell anyone else that they're making the wrong decision, or that they don't care, or storm out in a huff. Why? Because it isn't about him.

"she made it very clear if she was ever in this position she would want to die as quickly as possible." Then that is the end of it. It is no-one's business but the individual's. Personally, I would hate to be kept alive with such poor odds of recovery. My family know this and I know their wishes too.

There appears to be more behind your Husbands reaction than simply not agreeing with the decision made by you and your family but you're no mind reader and it is no excuse to berate and belittle you.

I would sit his arse down and let him know that he is entitled to an opinion, however, your elderly relatives wishes were honoured and on this particular occasion that carries more weight. If he has moral or personal reservations/objections about this topic then you will be happy to discuss them with him but now is not the right time.

I think these kinds of heightened situations can bring out really unpleasant sides in people. My dad was a huge drama queen in the last days of my maternal grandmother's life - kept making a huge fuss about his back and making it all about him while she was dying. I love him, but I don't think I'll ever forget that.

it sounds like your dh is having a personal reaction to this situation which perhaps reflects a sense of guilt on his part (being part of a decision which he is now not so sure about) and the questioning of the moral rights and wrongs of withdrawing treatment.

It is one thing to say "oh, it's what x would have wanted, go ahead and withdraw the treatment," but once the treatment is withdrawn there is no going back, and it is a huge responsibility to be a part of that decision process. There might also be thoughts of "what if she'd changed her mind?"

I watched a programme once about brain injuries where a man had distinctly stated that if he were ever that seriously injured he would want treatment to be withdrawn. Fast forward several years and he was that seriously injured and left paralysed from the neck down only able to move his eyes (although that wasn't known at the time the doctors were communicating with his family). His family had decided that treatment should be withdrawn because that was what he would have wanted. It then transpired that he could move his eyes and understand and doctors were able to communicate with him that way. turns out that when it came to the crunch he didn't actually want to die, even if living meant living in that state.

So it's possible your dh just doesn't see things in black and white.
and when it comes to feeling someone is taking on responsibility for bringing about the death of someone else, of course it is an emotive subject, and one which he perhaps feels needs to be brought up now because now it can still be undone whereas once she is dead it cannot.