dh (separated)

[muser31]

so we are starting marriage counselling this week, i am nervous. he has been emotionally abusive in the past we been separated for a good while now and have a 3 yr old dd - we are hoping to get our issues ironed out, tbh i don't see much hope of getting back together but this will be a way of getting some closure, even possibly hoping for an outcome of good communication with him. i am so worried though about bringing everything up again - he wouldn't deal with it all at the time, and in a way im over it all, but it has to be dealt with now, and im so pissed off that i have to bring it all up again, i know its going to be very very stressful (counselling was the last time, when we were married) so i think im going to need as much support as i can. ive been told this counsellor is very experienced with domestic violence etc, i really hope she finds a way to make him realise his selfishness even with the way he deals with childcare etc now - i feel we have so much to sort out, issues from when we were married and lots of issues from after we separated too. its going to be fun....NOT. sigh. i just feel like 'not this again' should have been over long long ago!!

I have found that closure does not necessarily mean "talking it out with the other person." I will never get that with my ex. His internal programming is still firmly fixed in "juvenile" and I suspect will not ever reach "adult." Closure for me is starting to be simply accepting that he is not going to change, he is not going to put his children's needs ahead of his own, he is not going to mature and be the father he should be. And then getting on with my life and doing my best for my children. No input from him is going to give me closure.

I think that if you're looking for how to hash out contact arrangements, perhaps see how amenable he is first, if he isn't agreeable at all, then suggest mediation. The least amount of stress involved for everyone the better, right? Just keep in mind, as Lweji has said, you could stop mediation at any point if he starts being aggressive or abusive, and then look at what your options are at that point.

FWIW I am in a similar position to you. We decided on couples counselling 6 months ago. DH devoted the whole of the first session to himself - poor me etc. I sat there listening and being blamed for a whole hour. He mentioned afterwards that he thought it was a good session. Then went off and cancelled the following 5 sessions. Needless to say we are now divorcing and I would have spent the time and money more wisely on a sesh in pub! Would deffo recommend individual counselling. Make it all about YOU! Good luck to you!

ok. yeah i have struggled with that before - the idea that i need to find closure within me myself, and i found it very difficult! i have increasingly come to a level of acceptance though that i tried my best and thats the way he is and its not going to change... i don't know i think there is one tiny little teeny weeny ounce of hope still left in me and i just need to do this counselling thing with him.

so the practical things aren't usually discussed in counselling then its usually just mediation ... ok that is useful to know seems a long process is ahead of us no matter what the outcome. i just wish it was all sorted out... will need a lot of strength for this.

forgot to say i was told the marriage counsellor would have to do a separate assessment if domestic abuse is disclosed, and we would have to draw up a plan of safety or something. i am a bit nervous about how he will react to this, because he doesn't like to see himself as an 'abuser'. i am hoping that marriage counselling will make him realise, or else yes make me realise i am flogging the dead horse and go get this divorce!

muser31

Re your comment:-

"please can people tell me - if i do decide im not going forward in our relationship, but i feel that we can get along ok for the sake of our dd, should i continue with the marriage counselling (with him knowing we are not getting back together) in order to sort out childcare arrangements, and all the parenting styles etc...in order to make things as amicable as possible (which was the reason i wanted to wait the 2 years before getting divorced)

OR just stop all contact, go through a solicitor and get it all formally drawn up"

Just stop all contact, go through a solicitor and get it all formally drawn up through the court. Honestly dragging this out any longer through joint counselling will just prolong the agony for you and your child.
He has not acted amicably to date and will likely make any legal separation as difficult as possible for you; he will be obstructive all the way.

No abusive man actually likes to see themselves as abusive but that does not mean to say they are not abusive. You have yourself stated he has been previously emotionally abusive and he is still being bloody minded and difficult. He will never realise either.

Never do any form of mediation with him either if this is offered to you by the courts. That could also put you in harms way too.

Your wish of "closure" from him will remain a pipedream; he will not give you that because abusive men do not let go of their victim easily. Any closure you want needs to be found by you and for yourself. Please do not put yourself through joint counselling, what is also disturbing here is that the domestic abuse has not been disclosed to the counsellor; any decent counsellor worth their salt would NEVER see the two of you together given the circumstances.

My solicitor has told me that generally in abusive situations, the mediation will go in two ways:

1- you go, he refuses. Mediation company issues paperwork to court saying mediation is not going to work.

2- you go, he goes, he is aggressive and/or abusive. Mediation company issues paperwork to court saying mediation is not going to work.

Often the court wants to see an effort made for mediation, so you may end up with either #1 or #2 here.

Counselling, however, seems to be solely for you to get this elusive "closure" that I suspect you already know you aren't going to get. It is an exercise in futility and torture emotionally, whilst providing him with a stick to beat you with.

Stop. Think. Do not hand the control back to him. Go through your solicitor and drop the plans for counselling. It will not help you.

I think i will probably want to just go through the solicitor given the above. ive already been through hell and back with him.... and you do forget how awful it was, because in preparation for the counselling i have been reading my old diaries and writing some examples down, and the way he spoke to me and the way he treated me was awful. ok he wasn't hitting me or taking all my money away, but he was constantly making me feel like total crap and not pulling his weight and making horrible comments to me.

even now, he has quite a strict work regime, and he sometimes says he can't take dd when he said he would (he set the schedule himself based on work). when he does this, he just cancels and doesn't say anything else - expecting me to change my plans and mind her. he did it tonight, said he couldn't take dd some night later this month - i said 'so are you going to take her another night then' and also there was the following morning he was to be minding her and i sent him a text saying 'so who is minding her in the morning?' aibu!? does the courts sort this kind of thing out?...like if he is meant to take her, he is meant to take her and he should sort it out! he never OFFERS to take her an alternate day when he cancels. the whole thing is draining. no i don't think i will be getting back with him. i think the one session, if i last through it will be the end of it.

I would forget the couple counselling. You've heard it all before and he will only be rewriting history. Get yourself some individual counselling and get advice from counsellor/solicitor regarding access for your dd. Court order if necessary. That will shake him into touch that you mean business. Also take the time when dd is away as YOU time and use it for you. I have taken much solace in the posts here on MN. Lots of people have gone through what you and I are going through now and their advice is really starting to take shape. My son is 16 but the same old same old crap from the husbands is the same whatever the age of the child/ren. YOU and your child/ren are the most important people in your life right now so do what you have to do. I really do wish you the best xxx

thanks talullah. we had our first session last night and it was mostly the assessment so we didn't get into much. i think what i need is for him to HEAR me, and how it was like for me, before i can move on. yes i know he will probably not understand/care and argue his points, but this is what i personally need. i know its going to be hard, and i think once i have laid it all out before him and had an opportunity to discuss it, i won't need to keep going to the counselling with him. the counsellor seems very nice, mature which helps.

when she asked us to tell her in our own words what the presenting issues were, and she had to write it down word for word... he went into a whole essay! i felt sorry for her he kept going on and on about random crap that sounded good. i think she can see through all that to be honest. he always wants to move forward... he wants to see 'how we both can change'. i simply said i wanted him to take responsibility for what has happened in the past and there is no moving forward without dealing with the past, and that i want to be heard and i am willing to listen.

he said something that has hurt. ( and i know this is only the start!) he said 'when i married you i didn't feel like i got a marriage'. this hurt tremendously, because he married me when i was quite ill, which he knew BEFORE we married(therefore he had a bloody choice), and therefore i couldn't do a lot of things (ie social life) and it impacted on my energy levels and pretty much everything. he knew all this. he didn't support me in it, he blamed me for it. this will have to be discussed...one question i think i will ask... ' what did you expect given my circumstances?' i suppose these are his feelings and they are valid, but they do show me that he is cruel, because surely a marriage should be in sickness or in health. i will say i didn't feel like i got a loving husband who cared.

sorry this is so long. i am still worried about what to do after we decide to get divorced (to go through court or not) but i am probably jumping the gun a bit. i have been reading a lot and reading that the courts don't like making court orders for children unless its a last resort.... i am interested in experiences of this so will start a thread about it perhaps.

I realise you want to be heard but you won't be listened to. You sound very frustrated about this which is understandable but I don't think sitting in a room with someone, baring your soul and then being ignored is going to ever relieve that frustration. If anything, it could make it worse.

You keep talking about 'closure' and I don't honestly think it's a realistic aim with an unreasonable person. IME the best way to deal with the past is not to keep poking at it expecting answers but to distance yourself from it by looking forward and creating a better future. Stick it in a box marked 'unfinished business' and one day it simply won't matter any more. The questions that are burning you up now won't be important.

I would therefore agree with PPs that have said forget couples counselling and go straight for the legal route. Let someone else deal with his ridiculous behaviour while you get on with life. He might be able to unsettle you but others won't care what he does.

it might make it worse... but i think i need to make this mistake myself, i don't think i can take anyones advice on it as im so set this is what i need to do. i think there is some things we need to see for ourselves and this is one of them. im really sorry if i am coming across as stubborn as i know all of you have my best interests at heart and are trying to protect me but its just one of those things in life i have to learn the hard way. i assure you though I AM listening and am determined to do the counselling as short a time as is possible. i am concerned about the consequences of going the legal route, the upheaval it would cause for everyone

muser31

But why set your own self up for more anguish (anguish that can also take a long time to recover from, heck men like this one can take years to recover from) or is this also because you are so frightened of going down the legal route now?.

I know, without actually doing it, that if I stick my fingers in a light-socket I'll regret it. Good luck

I think it is worth trying mediation to sort out childcare/parenting issues as it is much cheaper than using solicitors and you get a chance to thrash things out with an experienced mediator there with you.
But I agree that the joint counselling can only cause you more upset.
But if you feel you need to go then go for a session and form a view after that.

its not because i was frightened of going down the legal route... i was very prepared.

i wanted to give him another chance. when we separated it was so that i could get some space, so that he could work on his issues. then nothing ever really happened from then on... so i want to go back and finish it off, whatever was meant to happy. i want closure, yes he might not be able to give it to me, but i will get it when i see that he has no understanding and he has not changed. we haven't communciated our feelings since separation - i want to know what he thinks about what was going on in our marriage, i want to know if he takes responsbilitiy and he is willing to change, and if he is - i will give him another chance. and i know 99.99999% of these men never ever change, but we are both christians and if he sees his mistakes and wants to change and is willing, i believe God will help him change. i know this is very unlikely - and in that case that he doesn't see the reality of it all, ill know in my heart that ill have waited, given him another chance, done my best to live in peace, and go my way. i also don't want to go down the legal route unless he is being unreasonable. but it may be the best way forward and im not being niaeve about that (can't spell that...?)

happy - happen

Mediation should never been undertaken at all if there has been any form of abuse within the relationship, abusers use mediation as a further tool in their arsenal to batter their victims with.

This is also why mediation in abuse cases is NOT a good idea:-

To use mediation is to subscribe to the mistaken idea that abuse is related to "misunderstandings" or lack of communication. If discussion and compromise, the mainstay of mediation, could help in any way most domestic violence situations would be long ago resolved because victims of abuse "discuss and compromise" constantly. Mediation assumes both parties will cooperate to make agreements work; the victim has always 'cooperated' with the abuser; the abuser never cooperates.

Mediation can be and is ordered by judges/courts, as can counselling and mental health evaluations. They are tools in the abuser's arsenal to be used against the victim as often as he chooses. In order for mediation to work and to not make situations worse the parties involved must have equal power and must share some common vision of resolution. This is clearly not present when domestic violence has taken place in a relationship.

Mediation practitioners must be alert to the need to interview partners separately with specially designed questions in order to determine if abuse is or has been present. Many domestic violence professionals can train others to screen safely for domestic violence. To not do so risks unsuccessful mediations, at best, and increasing the victim's danger by colluding with the abuser, at worst.

A person who has been terrorized by an abuser is not free to participate in a mediation process with him, even if the mediator(s) assume or believe that they "understand". Being truthful about any of her needs or experiences in the abuser's presence or proximity practically ensures that she is in more danger later.

The mediator is left with a no win: either the victim's danger is increased, or she is not fully or truthfully participating, or both. The well meaning mediator may actually encourage the victim to feel safe enough to share information that could seriously compromise her safety. In any case the whole intent of mediation is lost.

To engage an abuser and a victim in a process that implies equal responsibility is damaging to both. The victim is once again made to feel responsible for the abuser's behaviour, and the abuser is allowed to continue to not accept full responsibility for his behaviour choices.

ive accepted your advice and opinions and am grateful and now i ask that you accept mine and please support me anyway through this

muser31

You are already seeing all too clearly even in one session that he is not and will never take any responsibility for his actions. Also a small number of sessions will really not change anything; he will likely try and manipulate the counsellor as well. He certainly knows how to press your buttons.

How many more chances are you going to give him out of some misguided need of yours for so called "closure" or just as bad giving him a second chance or an opportunity to change. He is not your responsibility and a person cannot act as either a rescuer and or saviour in a relationship. You are not and have never been responsible for his actions.

As Cogito wrote earlier I also hope that you will finally see him for the miserable and self pitying waste of space he utterly is and find enough strength within you to end this marriage once and for all.

muser please listen to the advise on your thread, I am a therapist and I can honestly say that joint therapy would not be in your best interest right now. You would benefit however from having your own therapy.

I really feel that what others here have said is good advise, going nc for all communication other than communication about practical arrangements with regards to any dc, even then keep it short and to the point without emotionally engaging.

Please make life easier for yourself.

A question for you to think about: what do you think he'll get from it and why has he agreed to it?

Obviously you're going to do what you want to do, and that's fine for you. But I do wonder precisely why you are so fixated on this "closure" issue. You want him to hear and understand your side. Has he done so before? Has he even attempted to do so before? What makes you think that he will do so now?

It's not a great idea to expect someone else to provide you with closure. You need to get past this idea that you need to "win" this point over him. I honestly think that you feel if he hears you say these things in counselling that he will suddenly (lightbulb moment) say "Oh god, I understand - I've been a shit, I've been so wrong!"

Not. Going. To. Happen.

Sorry. You need to be responsible for your own happiness. Don't rely on him for this.

muser I am christain so I understand where you are coming from. But you are not looking in the right place for your answers. If you take your faith as serious as you say you need to pray about this get your answers from God. I agree that God can change the heart of a man but in the 2 years that you have been separted this has not happened has it?
I am on my second marriage my first was bad very abusive etc I left I couldn't take it any longer. I knew that it went against my faith and my very religious parents made it v difficult for me but I couldn't live like that anymore. My second marriage it v different God is central to our marriage and I feel that he has blessed us.
I know that faith is a very personal thing and that sometimes you can hang onto a marriage because you consider your faith to be that important to you. But you cannot make a marriage work on your own and your H sounds like he is not willing and sorry to say this but just because he is a christain does not stop him from having human faults (i.e abusive).
I hope this perspective gives you something to mull over.

theoldhag im wondering are you a relationship therapist?

Lweji i think he has agreed to it because i told him enough was enough and i wasn't interested unless he made some kind of effort. as to what i think he will get from it....i am hoping he will get that lightbulb moment and see what an ass he's been. im hoping he will understand that he has been totally unreasonable in his thinking and expectations.

he hasn't understood before, and im hoping he might now having had 2 years to 'recover' from the stress that he was going through at the time, and being on the outside looking in on a situation he might see it for what it was.

im not relying on him for my happiness. i have been happy without him and have been building a new life without him. i still feel i need to do this as its been just left on the back burner