"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's February 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Eek! I didn't mean your pandering is unforgivable!

Gah! Sorry, should have read what i'd written!

Sorry! Was distracted by DS having a late McLunch!

yeah i was at sending her off on a bus on her own too. Unbelievable.

Thanks for the replies.

The ASD thing is more that he has no idea that other people have feelings, and he is always right. It is always someone else in the wrong.

That said, both DH and DS2 are ASD and they are never aggressive or bullying at all. They are very gentle people.

I told my mum that as I had rung to apologise twice and been pushed away, I'd leave him to call me next time, and for her to pass on the message that if he did I would be extremely welcoming and happy to hear from him. But yes, my poor mum! Never used her as a go-between before and she really couldn't take it. She's got through her life with him by always agreeing with him. But I was too hacked off to let her do that and did push for her opinion which was unfair. She's escaping to my DB's for a week without him. Long train journey but tbh she'll probably relax more without him barking at her all the time.

It's so kind of you all to be supportive to a stranger. He has bullied and barked at people all his life and then turned it around and claimed to be the wounded one. This year for some inexplicable reason I just thought: no. Not having it. I'll tough this out. Never thought that would get me on the Most Hated List though. Think he thought that would be so destroying to me that I'd beg forgiveness but I just thought, How nasty.

What makes us turn, I wonder? I think for me it was him packing my mum off on the bus, knowing she'd broken her arm, claiming it was so he could prepare food for her, then he didn't make her anything.

"The ASD thing is more that he has no idea that other people have feelings, and he is always right. It is always someone else in the wrong".

No to ASD. I would still think your Dad is not autistic. His behaviour is abusive and also those of someone who is narcissistic in terms of personality. These people have no empathy whatsoever and always think they are right. Read up on NPD and see what you think then.

Both your DH and DS2 would never act in such a manner as your Dad has.

It was likely your mother being herded onto a bus with an injury that made you turn. I sincerely hope that your mother can break away from her H. She may well not be able or willing to do so though.

well, it's very good that you said No More.

i sometimes wonder what makes people turn at last after having been put in a subordinate position all their lives. Why some do, why some don't.

Very pleased to hear your mother is going to your brother's for a week.

Meerka, yes, it will be good for her to be at DB's. He is very loving and gentle and my DSil is gorgeous too. She'll get a break from the stress. Just wish I hadn't added to it. She doesn't need it!

Attila, thank you for pointing out the difference between ASD and NPD. You are probably right. Yes, the whole world revolves around him, always has and always will. When he calls us, he delivers a monologue about every minute detail of his life and never once asks how we are, or how the DC are. He shows no interest in them. They have two great uncles who are better grandparents to them than he has ever been. It's not that he's horrible. He wishes them well. He just has no interest in them as people, just as Grandchildren he can boast about if they have done anything of merit.

I'm sounding bitter now, so I'll stop.

talk freely if it will help, cotton!

Unfortunately, he's highly unlikely to ever change :/

I know, Meerka. He won't change. But I didn't expect him to throw peace offerings back in my face. Normally if the other person takes the blame, even if he was the key player in a row, he will make them work for his forgiveness but he'll offer it. Or maybe it was me refusing to play that game any more that stopped it from happening. I dunno. :(

It's just that we have managed to get on OK for a few years now. there were years when I found it so hard to even be in the same room as him, but by keeping contact pretty short and diluting it with other people, we've been fine for a while. This was back to how he was when I was a child. Full on vitriol and bullying.

it sounds horrendous :( the return to Tyrant Vitriol status may be because his preeminent centre of attention place was rocked and he's feeling (poor thing) threatened and insecure? Tyrants don't like it when their rightful status is threatened.

CottonWool, my Dad occasionally has schizophrenic traits (not a full on schizophrenia diagnosis). He doesn't believe the doctor who told him this - he is part of the general conspiracy.

The thing is, knowing that, it doesn't make him less of a bullying twat. The vast majority of the time, he is in his 'right mind' and is still a twat. It's just that sometimes, his understanding of reality starts slipping away, and he's even more of a twat.

I say that as someone with a bipolar diagnosis, having to take antipsychotcs and antidepressants and to deal with all the side-effects from them, and as someone who's gone through intense and gruelling therapy. It's hard, and horrible, but I did it anyway, because I don't want to be a twat, and I don't want my children to suffer the effects of having an uncontrolled mother.

Massive sympathies to you, love.

Sorry to jump in at the end, but I did want to give you an update on me. I was NC with Dad for a year or so.

I called him last weekend.

Now, before you all sigh and throw your hands up in despair, hear me out.

I'm coming to the end of my gruelling therapy. During that, I've worked pretty damned hard at rebuilding my understanding of who I am, and sorting out some self confidence for myself. I had always hoped that I'd be able to at least be in the same room as Dad without turning into a quivering wreck - he lives close for one thing, I have siblings and they are not NC, it was likely to come up again that we'd have to meet. What I hoped for, is that I'd be able to hold a conversation with him the way you might with a gardener or somesuch, but no longer being that frightened child, scrabbling for his approval, fearing his anger, and going all out trying to win that praise which will never, ever come.

The reason I called him last week was twofold; one was that I was feeling mellow and strong, so it seemed like a good opportunity to try. The second was simple logistics; I'm nearly at the end of therapy, and I wanted the opportunity to discuss it with my therapist if needs be.

So I called. Annoyingly, it went to voicemail, and by the time he called back, I was tired and slightly emotional.

Still - I think I did well. I managed the conversation. I didn't get nervous and start blurting out things either for a reaction or by accident. He asked how DS was doing at school, and I said 'fine' and changed the subject. He doesn't get to be a part of that. That's my choice, and I put that boundary there.

The interesting (for me) thing was that through the conversation, I could hear the subtext of all he was saying. The first half was 'woe is me!' and the second half was 'I'm brilliant; praise me!' I found it fascinating that I could recognise this and stand firm without falling into the sympathy and praise as I used to.

The conversation confirmed a few things for me to. He is not interested in me whatsoever. It's all show, and it's all for his gain. I haven't spoken to him for a year, and he knows how ill I was last year, and yet, through the whole conversation, he never said 'how are you?'

So there we are. It's all confirmed in my mind; he is a narc, he's not capable of loving me, and you know what? I didn't actually get upset about that. I mean I was slightly sad in a 'wouldn't it be nice if Dad wasn't a Narc' kind of way, but I was passed it in minutes, and what I didn't do was spiral quickly into 'I must be terrible! I am an evil person who must die! There's no point to me at all!'

Basically, despite him, I feel confident about who I am, and I like that person.

I mentioned the conversation to my mother (the enabler) and she too went straight into that role. She feels sorry for him apparently, and he's had a terrible life. I shut that conversation down too, saying that he's not alone there, and at least some of it was his choice. He's the one continuously choosing the pity-party, rather than resolving his issues. I think she was surprised, and perhaps a little disappointed by my coldness, but I don't care about that either. I'm not looking for her approval.

I'm now only looking for mine.

So I just wanted to let you know; I think I'm nearly there.

Good stuff, Looking, that sounds so positive, well done you! and cottonwool you are in the right and it's not how loving families behave and supposed ASD is no excuse.
I've had a horrible weekend but it's nothing to do with DM, just me. Too much work and stress and DC being difficult, particularly DS and I just feel like a spare part, a useless, shouty, angry mother atm. I'm out working or at home working so much atm and when I'm not I feel like I'm shouting. Feel like I'm missing out on so much cos I have such crap working hours and I'm so stressed right now. They keep bickering and I keep shouting. :( Lost my temper massively today and felt awful afterwards. Need to get through the next 3 months until work eases off and then maybe sort out some therapy.

"Attila, thank you for pointing out the difference between ASD and NPD. You are probably right. Yes, the whole world revolves around him, always has and always will. When he calls us, he delivers a monologue about every minute detail of his life and never once asks how we are, or how the DC are. He shows no interest in them. They have two great uncles who are better grandparents to them than he has ever been. It's not that he's horrible. He wishes them well. He just has no interest in them as people, just as Grandchildren he can boast about if they have done anything of merit.

I'm sounding bitter now, so I'll stop".

Keep talking here if it helps. My FIL is very much similar with regards to the monologues about him and lack of interest in anything and anyone else other than him.

The above is exactly how narcissistic people act with relatives. And yes he is indeed horrible and indeed has no interest in them as people at all.

Its painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchild mainly because there is no interaction, its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated. I would keep your children well away from him as of now.

Looking - your posts were really helpful. Thanks.
Good - the difference is, that you notice when you are being unreasonable to your DC through exhaustion and you don't blame them, and you want to do better and put it right. That is the big difference, afaic.
Attila, I can't believe how long it has taken me to see him the way the rest of the world has seen him for so long. We were raised to revere him, even though he was, frankly, weird and furious most of the time. We were raised to be aggressively defensive of him and his views.

I remember a family gathering about two years ago. My uncle was there. he has a lame leg. I watched him very painfully lower himself onto the floor to play trains with my DC, where he stayed for an hour or so, chatting to them, being like a granddad. My dad was also there. getting drunk, holding court, showing zero interest in them. What shocked me on that occasion is that I'd been raised to view this uncle as an appalling man - a really evil man - for the reason that he has different political views from my dad and has always stood up to him. It took me that long - decades - to realise he was a kind and affectionate man who took more trouble over my kids than their own grandfather ever would. It's like being unbrainwashed.

Apologies all as I haven't read all the other posts and am selfishly jumping right in with my own problems. Last time i was on here was about three months ago as i thought i might move on easier if i wasn't on here all the time dragging up the past... Not sure if i was right or not.

For those of you that don't remember me I went nc with my narc mum almost a year ago and my dad drifted away soon later as any suggested contact with him was 'too awkward' and he didn't want to know. Things have got easier with time and am mostly fine with everything however my brother is getting married next week and instead of being excited I am absolutely dreading it. For the past couple of weeks I have been anxious, had nightmares, insomnia, panic attacks etc and been thinking of every possible scenario in my head but i still don't know how I should behave on the day.

What I want to happen is just to go, be polite, smile for the photos, not have my parents even look in my direction and just have polite chats/ small talk with other relatives etc with no drama whatsoever as it is my brother's big day.

However, i am not hopeful that this is what will happen. Being a narc, my mum thrives on drama and made several scenes at my wedding so i know she is capable of doing the same at my brother's. She has also been telling everyone around her how horrid I am/ playing the victim card for years so she has undoubtedly increased this and all her sisters/ mum believe everything she says and whilst not mean people, they are all loud/ strong women who like to let others know what they think of them ie me in this case. I cannot cope with any sort of confrontation. So option A is that people will be getting in line to give me a piece of their mind and stick up for mum.

Never had a falling out with dad before all this as he is her enabler but plays this very well. He seems very unhappy and I'm not surprised but it is his own doing. However, people naturally feel sorry for him being bullied by my mum. He has also twisted things to make it seem like i stopped contact with him too, he is heartbroken, on antidepressants, cries all the time etc. so I know that his lovely family will not understand either and think i'm mean for all the hurt i seem to have caused him. I can understand this, as felt the same way most of my life but he can manipulate things to suit himself when needed so this 'woe is me' thing pisses me off.

I guess, option B is that everyone avoids me like the plague on the day.
Option C is that everyone makes polite chit chat for the day, regardless of their views, which realistically i think is most likely but i worry about options a and b. I am also filled with dread at the family photos, which i obviously would do if asked but i feel sick at the thought of having to cosy up to my mum or being told to put an arm round her and smile.

If people ask/ confront me/ just seem concerned re my dad/ mum etc what stock answers can i have for basically not going into everything but clarifying that they have been told a pack of lies? I want to seem calm, reasonable but not just accepting all the rubbish told about me, without being rude, or unkind. I am mindful that my parents are also the sister/ brother of many other family members so can understand their hurt/ concern/ anger. Just don't know what to say

Also, i bumped into my parents a couple of weeks ago while out with my sister and her partner a couple of weeks ago. We were at the local carvery aand had to walk past their table to get our food. Mum blanked me as soon as she saw me, but grabbed my sister and talked manically while my sister tried to escape. I didn't so much as acknowledge mum at all. I looked at dad to say hi, but he looked down at his plate immediately and was obviously upset/ uncomfortable. We then got our food. Mum came to our table later to say 'i thought I'd come and say hello as you're too stuck up to'. I just said, 'I've told you, I'm done with you'. She then ranted loudly about how she doesn't know what she's done etc. other people were looking, and my sister looked very uncomfortable(she has minimal contact with her but not ready for nc). My sister's partner said to my mum 'this isn't the time or place for this' and surprisingly she left. She then came back a few minutes later and said to my sister that she couldn't apologise if she didn't know what she'd done wrong. My sister said you know what you did, you're the one in the wrong. Just go and leave us alone. So mum went, five minutes later she came to the table again, full of smiles and said to my sister, how's you're meal love? Then disappeared!

A few days later she phoned my sister and started talking about how she only came to the table to say hi and try to sort things out with me, she denies calling me stuck up or being hostile at all and it was all me. Sister pointed out that her and her partner heard all of this as they were there! She's just mad! But i guess it confirmed in my head that she is still spoiling for a fight and probably will be at the wedding too (though obviously in a way that she can twist, without too many witnesses I guess)

New and marking place. I will come back!

Milly, that sounds like a nightmare situation. I have no idea what to suggest, other than not attending the wedding. Is there any way that's possible?

Have you spoken with your brother?. What role does he play here within your birth family's familial dysfunction?. I ask that as people from dysfunctional families often end up playing roles. How does he get on with his parents, was he the most favoured of you all or has he really invited them to the wedding purely out of societal convention?.

If he is heartily in favour of having them there I would re-consider attending at all.

I'm not new to mumsnet but more of a lurker and today I have spent time reading up on this thread because I'm trying to find a solution.
I have always had a uneasy relationship with my mother. She lives close to me because before DF died I was the only one to have DC's and he wanted to spend time with them. I am the eldest of two biological children and I have a adopted older sister (H). H abandoned her own daughter (L) and my parents took her on at first as 'granddaughter' then as 'daughter' IYSWIM.
Me and DB were young teenagers. DB and L live in different parts of the country from us.
H was difficult and made my life hell (she once admitted she hated me because I was a 'proper' daughter'). She and DM had major issues. H is now no contact with us all and cites DM as the reason).
Growing up DB was golden child. L was the baby and doted on. I was left to get on with things.
I could give you some examples of it all but I would prob bore you all!
Now we are all adults with families, DB is not so golden (that changed when he met his fiancée ) and L is now golden child.
L is a squeaky wheel and a compete drama queen and everything is judged on how it affects her.
L does not like me.
First was because I had kids first (and my DD was a threat as a second granddaughter, it was around here DM started calling L daughter instead). Second I live close, she her husband and two DDs live further away. I am made to feel guilty.
I dote on her kids and am always the one to contact L, she hardly replies, acknowledges presents for kids or send cards on birthdays.
When she visits (very frequently)my kids and me are sidelined and mum tiptoes around to ensure she doesn't show any affection to my kids in case it upsets L .
Once my DD was left in tears because DM pulled out of a visit with her to do something with L and her DD instead.
Now, twice I have called unfair and said how sad and left out I felt.
And twice I have been accused of being over sensitive and jealous.
Lately L has been all over DM and DB, posting wonderful things about them on Facebook. My name is conspicuous by its absence.
I happened to mention to DM that it made me sad she never seems to see me that way and she instantly defended her and said I am being 'difficult' again.
Am I? Have I got it all wrong? Can you help me deal with this? Sorry it's so long!

Cats

The only thing you can do here going forward is to protect you and your family unit from this ongoing dysfunction.

I would no longer subject myself to your dysfunctional family of origin and would cut them all off. What do any of these people bring into your lives?. It is NOT your fault they are this way. Its also the case that familial dysfunction and toxicity seeps down the generations; you were all profoundly affected in different ways as children and now you are adults your children are being affected by all this dysfunction too.

I would stop sending L and her family gifts and stuff as of now; its not appreciated and doing this just opens you up to getting more pain. She does not give a fig about your own children and your mother to keep on the right side of L, sides with her all the time again (she sees a kindred spirit in her) at your family's expense. You are really the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

All this "you're being unfair/over sensitive" crap is a charge often laid at the door of the "errant" offspring by their toxic parent so I would disengage from it completely. THEY are the ones who are being so but they will never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Any involvement in their lives just gets you swept back into the maelstrom again.

Stay off FB as well, I honestly would remove yourself from it and do not read any postings. Its a great tool for narcissists like L (and I daresay your mother is a narcissist as well).

Thank you so much for replying.
Am in tears here. The thing is, I love my family so much, I do, despite it all.
My children adore their grandmother. And as a rule she is wonderful to them, as long as L isn't around.
I think she must feel so much guilt and responsibility for L, whatever happned between her and H (I don't know much, it isn't discussed) must be a constant niggle and so she projects onto L maybe?
I just want to feel loved though. I want us to be whole unit.
DH lost his mother at an early age, his father drank himself to death, so I just want the kids to have as much family as possible.
Can these issues ever be fixed?

"I just want to feel loved though. I want us to be whole unit."
The first sentence is particularly sad; have you ever felt loved by your mother?. The second sentence is already happening; you and your children are a whole unit. That's your own family unit.

Children need positive role models; not family members who engage in all this toxic crap that damages you and by turn them.

People often go back for more in the hopes that one or both horrible parents will see the light and say sorry or change. It never happens.

I do not think these people actually know what love is; they have certainly not acted very lovingly towards each other. Your mother has done more than her fair bit here to keep the familial dysfunction going. Guilt and responsibility are two words that are not in their vocab.
All you can do here is disengage from it otherwise it will keep pulling you back in.

Do your children really adore their grandmother or would you just like to think that they do?.

Your mother keeps putting L and her own DD over and above everyone else; its not fair on you or your children to keep being subjected to this. Your mother either behaves decently with you or she simply does not get to see any of you.

And I reiterate, get yourself off FB.

Once my DD was left in tears because DM pulled out of a visit with her to do something with L and her DD instead.
Now, twice I have called unfair and said how sad and left out I felt.
And twice I have been accused of being over sensitive and jealous.

Your instinct are correct, this IS unfair and unacceptable to you and your DD. to have a child in tears at the hands of her GM is wrong. You called her out on her treatment but she did it again.

Can you see that there is no useful purpose for any contact to happen between your family and your children?

Go NC, and just end this. your family are too toxic for you and therefore WAY too toxic for your DC.

Milly I too want to ask the questions Atilla did:

Have you spoken with your brother?. What role does he play here within your birth family's familial dysfunction?

if he's of the same ilk as them, then withdraw from the wedding and suit yourself. no-one is worth being this tormented.

If he's NOT like them, then suggest to him that you will see him before or after, but that you will be outnumbered there and ganged up against and you are not about to allow that. for anyone or anything.

You CAN refuse to be put in harmful situations.

Cats My children adore their grandmother. And as a rule she is wonderful to them, as long as L isn't around.

Conditional love? is that all your DC are worth? you deserve better than that.

You can't have a relationship with her or allow your DC to either if you can't predict if your DC will be picked up or dumped to suit L.

Either your DM treats your DC with kindness ALL THE TIME, or she doesn't have anything to do with them.