"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's February 2014, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013
December 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Hello all,

Nothing to add to other posters as I've selfishly not read back. Will make a concerted effort to do so in the next couple of days though. Hope you're all well anyway!

Things have been quiet here on the DM front. Which meant I was of course, wracked with guilt about having not spoken to her for over a week. And yes, it would seem that most communication has to be initiated by me. So I called yesterday and as usual didn't get much of a word in edgeways - I suppose mostly because I was in shock that DM and DSF want to get some work done on their house and she actually said "it strikes me that we'll need to move out for a week or two so you may want to consider offering us a place to stay"...........

Ok so whenever I've been "in between" properties I've generally stayed at her house (though I think 9/10 it ended in a row and I only picked to stay with her rather than DF and DSM because it would've offended DM if I did), so I'd feel pretty mean not even offering for them to stay here, but the fact that she's pretty much already decided that that's how they'll cope whilst their building work is being done has annoyed me. And I sit here most days feeling quite sad at how non-existent our relationship is and she thinks things are hunky dory enough to come and live here for a couple of weeks. Gah.

It's also annoyed me that there wasn't even a suggestion that I'd need to discuss it with DH first either. She just presumes that her and I have this superior bond that outstrips anything else I have with anyone else and therefore

I said to DH that we should get a kitten (been toying with the idea for a while) so that we could use that as the excuse (DM has a dog that would obviously be coming too). We've got 4 bedrooms and we're doing the smallest up for the new baby's nursery and have nearly finished that, so really unless the 3rd bedroom (rooms 1 and 2 are used by us and DD respectively) is in a complete state (and it only really needs a lick of paint, nothing else that would really prevent someone from sleeping in there), we'd have no reason to not offer. Am hoping the builders can't do anything until late June/July which is close enough to my due date for us to reasonably say no (which is the only legitimate reason I can really think of).

So it might not even happen and it's very early in their plans to build anyway. But it's got me on edge a little bit. I don't want them to stay but feel like I couldn't say no, and imagine that doing so would cause an almighty row (they haven't got many other options to go anywhere, though DH thinks they could just cope at their own house anyway). And if they do stay here, it will be a horrid time (and I suspect would drag out longer than a week or so, as is often the way with building work).

Brings back memories of when I paid for DM to visit us for a big birthday of hers when we were living on the other side of the world. In an argument later she told me there had been times she felt so extremely uncomfortable and like they had to tip-toe around DH and me all the time. I'd thought we all had a lovely time together actually....

Aaaaaaaaanyway. Nothing's happened yet so I guess we'll have to wait and see. I suppose I'm just preparing myself for a big ordeal though I'm hoping it simply won't come to that. Hate living under a cloud though.

Talking of which, hope you all avoided the hail today!

*therefore why on earth would I need to consult someone as lowly as DH about something that my DM wants.

Oh and one last thing from me... Managed to upset my dad last week and we've texted but not spoken since. I know things are ok between us but I still have that thought in my head of "See? It's me. I'm the difficult one. I'm the one who upsets people", along with imaginary thoughts of my dad muttering "She's just like her bloody mother".

Youput I dip in and out of the thread at the moment, as life's a bit manic so I can't remember your back story but it really is ok to say no to her staying. Don't let the fog stop you. She's basically just assumed it was ok. It's presumptuous and rude to say the least. You don't have to be rude in reply just say you can't. Ignore irrelevant logic or manipulation and just repeat I'm afraid not.

I would disengage from your family personally. It seems any contact ends up leaving you feeling bad anyway. What do they add to your life? You can go low contact if you're not comfortable with no contact yet. It can take time to feel ready or strong enough to do anymore than that. But you need to protect yourself emotionally from them.

Don't ring her again. You long for a normal relationship with a mother, but when you call she hurts you. She'll never be what you wish she could be. I think you're also concerned about making things worse by lowering contact but if you can't find the strength to drop contact you'll keep feeling like this.

'I'm the difficult one' - another of those legacies toxic parenting leaves us with I struggle in this area too.

But it's not you.

No, she's not assuming, she's demanding to be asked!

I suggest NOT mentioning it again, but if she raises it, say 'we've discussed this at home, and it won't work for us' no reasons, no excuses, just on a 'fecking' loop.

Obviously do discuss it with DH and agree that it's not going to happen, let him be the bad guy if you like (and he agrees)

No, she's not assuming, she's demanding to be asked!

I suggest NOT mentioning it again, but if she raises it, say 'we've discussed this at home, and it won't work for us' no reasons, no excuses, just on a 'fecking' loop.

Obviously do discuss it with DH and agree that it's not going to happen, let him be the bad guy if you like (and he agrees)

Agree with Hissy. Don't let her come and stay, she can sort out a short term let or a hotel. You're pg, you don't need the stress. Just say "that won't work I'm afraid/it's not possible I'm afraid/It's not a good time, sorry" and don't enter into details.
Also agree that letting things drift ad lowering contact would be good for you. Get some boundaries up before baby arrives and things go mental.

And Hissy and Rome thanks for the manly back pats. You're right. I can do this.

I won't mention it as such but she wants the details of our architect and builders for her work. I will delay giving them until she asks again and I've got them to hand.

The work might not even happen for ages yet - couple of weeks to sort drawings, another 4-6 for building regs etc etc etc. Plus knowing DM as I do, this was the overexcited chat coming out rather than the realistc plan, so fingers crossed it's just random chat that will never actually happen.

DM is looking after DD today and I felt really sad after I dropped her off. I can't help but shake the feeling that I should be charitable and kinder to and about her. She's had a naff upbringing and relationship with her own DM, a divorce, an often turbulent relationship with her now husband (my DSF) several redundancies, failed business attempts, poor finances (which is another reason I'm a bit about the work to their house), cancer and other health issues and I just don't think has a clue how hurtful she can be. She doesn't spend any quality time with me and DBro. I can pretty much see why she is like she is. And whilst that doesn't excuse how she can make me feel at times, I guess it goes some way to explaining it.

I quite often feel let down by our interactions. I dread letting DD down in similar ways. I know she (DD) has a marvellous time at nursery or GPs houses as it's all so lively and exciting and attentive to her. At home, I'm busy doing dinner, washing etc and not very good at 'playing', plus am usually tired so feel I'm boring and dull in comparison to everyone else. And my head is so fricking cluttered with everything that I feel disengaged and distracted a lot of the time.

Sorry - self indulgent again. Finishing work now to go collect DD so no time to read back but deffo will. Thank you for letting me rant!

Youputyourrightarmin,

What both Hissy and GoodtoBetter wrote earlier.

No you are not being self indulgent at all!. Not a bit of it!!!.

Given what your mother is like I would seriously consider obtaining alternative childcare as of now. Small wonder you felt sad after dropping your DD off to her.

"I can't help but shake the feeling that I should be charitable and kinder to and about her"

Sorry but that is really your conditioning at her hands talking, it really is a lot of old bullocks!!. You are really in a FOG state with regards to your mother - fear, obligation, guilt.

She having a naff upbringing is no excuse or justification; you also had a rotten childhood at her hands and you do not act like your mother does. You've basically along with your brother been trained to serve her.

Guilt. Ah, guilt. The best friend and worst enemy of an Adult Child of Narcissistic Parents. This may be the hardest of all the feelings to fight against, but you must. When that guilt is gnawing away at you, tell it to piss off.

Your Dad I would think is the bystander in all this - a weak man who acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Also narcissistic women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them; that's your dad.

A good rule of thumb here is that if she is too toxic/difficult etc for you to deal with she is far too toxic for your both vulnerable and defenceless child.

As for interactions too, it is painful to watch a narcissist interact with their grandchild, because there really is no interaction. Its like watching a re-run of a tv show you've always hated.

You are pg as well and do not need the stress.

Oh my this thread is shocking, another one with a toxic mil!
[[ Difficulties with family
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2034541-Difficulties-with-family-member]]

ARGH. Just lost a massive post (which you guys may be well relieved to hear as I wasn't half waffling on!).

Picking DD up was fine. She did have The Shoes on which was annoying as she'd worn other ones round there, but I didn't make a thing of it, just put her original ones back on when we left.

One thing that did hit me today, was the fact that all the things DM is good at are the exact same things that I feel I'm rubbish at (singing, arty stuff, writing, public speaking etc). I remember another thread on MN where a poster talked about her DM always being bigger/brighter/better than her. Well, this is DM. What room was there for me to get good at those things when DM was always shouting about how marvellous she is at them? Sadly, I think I've come to this realisation because when I pick DD up I sit there like a lemon whilst DM carries on being The Most Fun Person In The Room. I know it's not healthy for DD to see me like this, so I need to have a strategy for dealing with this - any tips? At the moment I internalise it and repeat to myself "It doesn't matter, DD loves me, I'm her mummy, she's coming home with me in a minute". I feel rude if I just rush off because these are the only times I see DM and I don't want to give her any ammunition against me.

As I think I've said in previous posts on here, I will not be the one to cause the next fight. Rightly or wrongly, I feel semi in control playing it safe as it were. I give her just enough of what she needs so that it's not all blowing up in my face, yet is just enough for me to bare. As long as I can continue to rant here and to DH I think I'll be ok. To this extent, I've got her a nice Mother's Day present and will suggest we go for breakfast first thing, but will not be doing anything else.

Contact is as low as it's going to get. I'm thinking about reducing the fixed days DD has with the GPs whilst I'm on maternity leave, but the flip side of that is arranging ad hoc time with them all, which with 3 sets, I find exhausting and time-consuming to sort out, so a regular slot kind of works well. When DM and I talk, it's usually her doing all the talking so I give her very little about what I/we've got going on. That works - she gets to talk about herself, I feel I've done my duty and got the tick in the box and coming away a bit peeved at some tiny comment is actually far far better than the alternative of having a blazing row.

Atilla my parents are divorced so I think you mean my DSF. He's a nice kind man who I've grown to love and am very fond of, but I agree, he's probably somewhat of an enabler, though I don't think he's a willing enabler. He tried to get out of the relationship about 6 years ago but it was put down to him being depressed about work and they are still together. I actually think there finances are so delicately balanced and intertwined that either of them could leave even if they really wanted to. He and I have an unspoken understanding though. I popped in there a few weeks ago and DM said "How's your bump? Oh I see it's spread to your arse" as a joke (which I ignored and DSF said "Margaret!" granted I have put on a fair amount of weight round my bottom. Today when I saw DSF he said "Hello bump" and then gave me a big kiss and said "Oh gosh, that wasn't very nice of me, I'm sorry, I should've acknowledged you rather than your tummy". Which I know is his way of apologising for her comment a couple of weeks back.

Anyway, thank you for listening .

their finances are so delicately balanced and intertwined that neither of them could leave even if they really wanted to.

Oh and Margaret isn't her real name either, just put it in for the story's sake!

YouPut I sympathise, my DM does "super fun granny" as well and made me feel totally inadequate as a parent when we lived with her.
I also have some contact (too much) but find it difficult to reduce it further..it's easier just have contact and let her waffle on and not give anything away about me.

Well that's it G2B - totally agree.

A colleague at work sometimes uses the phrase "Give 'em enough rope and eventually they'll hang themselves". Which is a dreadful way to think but I will not be at blame for the next falling out. It gives me a tiny bit of strength to feel like this, even though I know it's not right as such.

My fear is still that people will still be everso "Oh you two are so alike it's no wonder you clash". DBro has suffered very badly from DM yet can't quite see it for himself and he is one of those who says this which upsets me because I'm really angry for how she's treated him over the years and it stings when he sees us clash and puts it down to me and DM being too similar.

My Dm in many ways doesn't seem to notice that I am so much more distant. Which I find weird. But then, I just find my DM incomprehensibly weird in so many ways.

Again snap! I don't know whether she does notice and doesn't show it, or genuinely doesn't notice. Which brings me round in more circles that we are just as bad as each other - both pretending things are fine when you scratch away at the surface and they really aren't..

But I had a good scratch about a year and half ago and it resulted in an explosion and suicide threats and us moving out of the house we shared with her (loooong story). Prefer the "hmmm, yes, uh huh" route. The explosion was good as it freed me from her to a large extent, but v v stressful.

Hi yourputyourrightarmin,

I remember you well from previous writings.

Re your comment re your DSF (am sorry, did not realise he was your DSF):-

"I agree, he's probably somewhat of an enabler, though I don't think he's a willing enabler. He tried to get out of the relationship about 6 years ago but it was put down to him being depressed about work and they are still together. I actually think there finances are so delicately balanced and intertwined that either of them could leave even if they really wanted to".

Seeing that he did try to get out of the relationship six years ago says a lot but he gets what he wants out of this relationship as does your mother. He does indeed enable her, narcissistic women always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

I would suggest you keep the collecting of your child time as short as possible so this does not give your mother further opportunity to be the fun person in the room. She is really NOT the fun person in the room, she just wants to project an image (of perfection) to the outside world, its all image to these people. I would also think she does not really interact with your child much either behind closed doors, other people are but background to the narcissist.

Its also NOT your fault she is like this, you did not make her this way.

I would seriously also severely curtail contact between your DD and your mother for your DDs sake as much as yours. Your mother is still a narcissist.

Oh and don't knock yourself out arranging time spent with 3 lots of grandparents. Let them come to you; if any of them start whinging its too bad. You are expecting again (congratulations flowers) and you do not need it.

Your dear brother seems utterly mired in FOG as well when it comes to his mother and uses you as a foil because he really does not want to see that she was completely awful as a parent. Denial is a powerful force after all.

BTW take it from me, you and your mother are completely different as people (even though your mother uses you as an extension of her own self) and you are not narcissistic. The only commonality you really have here is that you are both female.

Thanks Atilla. I'm teary today. We had a stressful morning getting us all up and out, DH and I were grumpy with each other and then when I dropped DD off at DM's house I started saying something and realised she wasn't listening and stopped. She didn't even notice. I test this out quite a lot - just stop part way through a conversaton to see if she realises. She never does.

You're so so right about projecting the image to the outside world. I too can be guilty of this actually, though I know I don't do it to the same extent DM does. Growing up everyone used to say to me "your mum's so cool" and I used to reply with "yes but you don't have to live with her" and I couldn't work out what it was about her they thought was so cool.

What you say about DB is probably true. He's also keeps her at arms's length and when I mentioned as such he said "No I don't, this is just what a normal mother son relationship is, I'm an adult, I don't need to have her involved in my life that much.". I guess where we differ is that I can now see that this is not normal. He's not very good at facing things head on so your point about denial makes sense.

Oh the irony of moving back from the other side of the world to be closer to family...

I'm going to call round some counsellors, my head is too cluttered and I need some clarity in order to have space emotionally to be a better me, a better wife and a better mother. I'm am totally lost as to who I am to be honest. I'm still blaming her for all my weakness and downfalls and don't know whether that's valid. I'm due to go back to see my hypno birthing lady for a refresher for no2 and I said to DH that I feel like I'm much weaker emotionally than I was 2.5 years ago when we last saw her. I feel like FOG has surrounded me since actually (now that I know what it is!).

Right am chairing a conference call about Important Work Stuff in 15 mins. Must get myself together.

Hope it's sunny where you lot all are - miserable here. Have a nice day regardless .

sending some hugs to YouPut, I think counselling would be a good idea. My Dbro is having some and finding it really helpful. I'm going to try and sort some out too, but I'm abroad and would prefer it in English, so will have to look for someone who skypes probably.
I know what you mean about the conversations, I think mine would notice if I stopped mid sentence but she monologues all the time, great long stories about stuff I don't know or care about (like about tennis players...I ate tennis, bores me to tears) and doesn't seem to notice or care that I'm just going hmmm, uh huh. Sometimes she says, "am I boring you?" and I'm too rude to say "yes, STFU" so I say, no and she carries on for another 5 mins.

She monologues and dominates conversation in company given half the chance and I've always found it really embarrassing.

Our mothers could be related GTB!! I get the monologues too and it's often quite random, but always about her or how wonderful she is.

And the public domination is embarrasing. Just makes me feel awkward. I suspect that's partly why I hate being centre of attention of speaking in public.

Nope mine doesn't notice when I stop mid-sentence. No one else was talking today but she was so engrossed in DD that she didn't care or notice what I was saying. It was actually in response to something she had said! So I just gave DD a kiss, said bye and went.

We're off to see a friend this afternoon so will make pick up short and sweet.

Conference call was cancelled, and had a cry down the phone to DH instead. He's lovely. We were both going to go and see our mums seperately on Sunday morning before doing something nice just us three, but now I'm not going to suggest breakfast with my mum, we will all pop in there before we pop in to see MIL and then go and do our own thing. Safety in numbers and will make it easier to keep it short and sweet. DBro is working all day and is going to pop in on his way home in the evening. Seeminly he doesn't feel guilty. This will be my third MD and DH was abroad for the past two so will bloody well enjoy it!