Temporary dip in our sex life or is my wife just not that into me?

[GrandpaInMyMicrowave]

We have two children, both difficult births for my wife. Our sex life isn't back on track yet. We've had many heart to hearts. However there is a very real gap in our libidos and it had been putting a strain on our relationship.
I had come to terms with the fact that our sex lives just needed time, perhaps another few years until the children are back at school. In the mean time we've been managing sex a couple of times a month. It might have been more but my wife has struggled with various ailments: serious tooth trouble culminating in a very painful root canal treatment, coil fitted, heavy periods, sick children over X-Mas etc).
This weekend I took the kids away for the day to give DW her regular (fortnightly) day off. In the evening I used the computer and spotted on the icloud tabs in safari that she had been looking at porn. There were two porn video sites and another with erotic stories.
Later that evening I was hoping 'tonight was the night', and her tooth ache flared up again. I believe it is very sore - the abscess is clearly visible.
I'm not particular bothered about her looking at porn, but I was more concerned about her later deleting her history. (And yes I admit to snooping on her phone to see what she was looking at).
I think I'm worrying over nothing but I wondered if anyone could provide an alternative perspective on this.

HerdyHerdwick - DW is definitely an ex-mumsnetter. She hasn't posted for months. I'm not being passive aggressive, I'm trying to think carefully about how I feel about this and how / if I want to discuss it with DW. Writing this down helps and comments from others gives perspective.

The skeptical MNers - knowing my wife, I suspect the erotic stories were her focus. The porn site contained videos of a specific scenario whichmust be a fantasy of hers.

All - I will definitely discuss the phone access thing and being more careful in future.

Oly4 - Thank you for the response. I hope your words mirror what my wife might say because I believe what you've said to be true about her.

sykadelic - I was hurt by the vanilla comment but I've never brought it up. Since she posted the comment we have had a few chats about fantasies, each time ending up with amazing sex. But I must emphasise that circumstances have worked against us ever since (see original post). For the last three months sex has been sporadic and, for want of a better word, 'vanilla'.
I'm thinking it's as simple as admitting that I saw the sites, asking her to be more cautious in future and then seeing if she's up for sharing her fantasies the next time she feels up to it (noting that her recent experience with her teeth has been pretty horrific).

I don't think the porn on browser issue is a huge thing, because on phones the browser tends to keep whatever you were viewing especially if you forget to close the tab. If the toddler is playing on games then it's likely she was semi-supervising, even if not actually watching the screen, you can hear toddler type games and usually if you heard the music or sounds stop then you'd check in case they had managed to navigate onto the phone part and were making calls or something. Obviously it's careless, but I think it would be more that she wouldn't expect a child to tap on a (quite boring looking) icon of a web browser. It's not the same as, for example, viewing porn on a computer screen which could then be turned on to put the cbeebies website on.

I think the suggestion to say "Hey, I saw this, is it something you'd be interested in watching together?" is a good one. It's not saying "I'm upset that you're choosing this over me" (even if you are) and it's not saying "Hey, let's have sex RIGHT NOW", it's just an option to explore together.

If I can be frank, masturbation for a woman is totally different to sex, especially post-childbirth sex, because you are only really touching a very small, outside part of the anatomy and there is no chance that you yourself will either slip and touch something painful or try to explore to take it further. There is quite a lot of pressure generally - not necessarily coming from you - that sex means penis-in-vagina (sometimes shortened to PIV which I will use for the sake of brevity) and/or some other kind of penetration. And although this of course can be and often is pleasurable, it can also feel very invasive, it can be uncomfortable or even painful, even though at the same time it is enjoyable/pleasurable. What I'm saying is that sometimes it's a trade off. The problem is that after childbirth especially, the pain and discomfort can be heightened and the thought of it can be enough to put you off despite enjoying the nice feelings which come with it as well.

It may be that she feels guilty doing other things with you if she is not feeling up to PIV or not wanting PIV at the moment, because she associates this with being "full sex" and feels that if she were to start other things but not progress to PIV then she is somehow being unfair to you or being a "pricktease". She may feel that you are feeling rejected due to the lack of PIV and think that if she was to do other things but not PIV then that would be seen as even more of a rejection by you. She may not know how to explain this or put this into words without it coming across that she doesn't want to have sex with you, or making you feel like you have done something wrong or are hurting her when you have sex (PIV). Also, it may take longer physically for you to reach orgasm together without PIV and she might find the thought tiring or exhausting, especially with two small children clamouring for her touch most of the day - it is extremely common to feel "touched out" and the thought of spending 20 minutes doing a largely repetitive movement is not a hugely attractive one. (Sorry to say.) Mutual masturbation/69 may be more attractive but she would have to trust you not to again, push boundaries that are uncomfortable for her currently. I am sure that you wouldn't be pushing boundaries anyway, but she might fear that you would do so unintentionally or with good intentions.

Bottom line, you need to communicate, she needs to feel reassured that you are not wanting to do anything before she is ready and you need to feel reassured that she does still have the intimacy with you that you always had. The conversation about realising you hardly ever hold hands is a good one - maybe you could try to rebuild some non-sexual, low pressure intimacy where the focus is not on sex or PIV at all but just about touching, being close, perhaps a massage or a bath together or just cuddling close while watching TV or something like that.

Good luck.

But yes I agree to mention it is fair, if it's a smartphone it's possible to download a "private browser" which will automatically wipe the history when it is closed meaning little hands will never be able to find it.

Check your inbox I've messaged you

DixieGoesToHollywood

I have to agree with your posts on this thread.

The advice that would be give in these circumstances would be to LTB.
Hmmm stinks of double standards to me.

Anyway, OP...
Somehow your wife needs to be way more open with you as she is clearly not being honest at the moment.
I'm guessing your going to need to do this once the DC are in bed and fast asleep.
Listen to her, be open minded, don't dismiss anything she says.
If you are being 'vanilla' in her opinion you could be up for some new experiences as long as you are open minded enough.
If it's something your not keen on, tell her and come to a compromise.
You don't seem to have a problem having heart to hearts, you know what shes been up to and what she has been saying. Just get it all out in the open and start talking about these difficult issues.

Good luck

Men and women watch porn for only one reason , they want to get off . I do not believe she's using it to kick start her libido . If that was true you would have seen a marked difference in her the day she'd been using it . Did you ? Women never say that a man uses porn to kick start his libido and to do so would be ridiculous.

I think this suggests that your life does indeed have a libido , but that for whatever reason she is not as attracted to you as she once was. Attraction is not a choice and I think the comment about being best friends is quite telling . She probably sees you as her friend , housemate and children's father instead of a man she wants to fuck

The vanilla comment is also telling , to me it indicates she wants a different type of sex with you . She is probably embarrassed about this and you will need to take the lead here . Do you yourself talk to her about your own fantasy ?

It will be fun to requote some people on here next time a thread with the reversed sexes cimes up :)

Twice a month is not that unusual when you have very small children. You may want sex more often than this but twice a month does not necessarily indicate your wife has a problem with sex.

I can't abide porn at all and I think it can be really toxic for relationships. I'm not sure whether this is a case of her replacing your sex life with porn though as, as I've said, twice a month is not abnormal with little ones.

I agree it is PA to post on here, she may not have posted for months but many people lurk and if you are hoping she'll come across this and it will force the issue that is less than ideal.

The snooping you've been doing is no good either. Agree with others, tis pointless posting here. You need to speak to your wife.

Eh? Am I missing something? He's posted here for advice and a female perspective. Did the MN crew tell his wife that it was pointless for her to post on here when she was looking for the same? So what if he's hoping she sees it and it kick starts a convo about the issues? Who's to say she wasn't doing the same when she was posting on here and 'indiscreetly' leaving it open for him to see? However I do agree that if possible it would be better to talk to her straight about it. Anyway OP I'm afraid I don't have any advice other than to reiterate what some others have already said. Good luck to you though at least you want to work this out.

I can't believe i am going to post this but hey ho.
I am looking through your wifes eyes and there may be a possible explanation.
I do sometimes watch porn to pleasure myself, which i do alot more than having sex. Me and my DP only have sex 2/3 times a month and we don't have kids.
The reason being is, that i dont actually get anything out of it. It is the same sex everytime and whilst he finishes,i dont. So i would rather do it myself and have results. What i am trying to say is, its hard for me to be excited and want to have sex when i know whats going to happen (nothing for me).

Do you actually know what she likes and if she is really enjoying it? Not faking it?
I imagine that if i actually got satisfaction from it most of the time, i would be far more up for it than what i currently am.

Babynugget - what you're missing no doubt is an understanding of the words 'conflict of interest' his wife hasn't sought out a forum he uses to make comments about their sex life. She just posted on the forum she uses about her life. He has deliberately posted on the forum he knows she uses - can you see why people might think that is being PA?

To be fair though Offred, MN does have a good reputation for this kind of thing. I was (am) in a similar position to OP when I first joined MN, but without the porn aspect. Anyway, MN is pretty much the only forum that manages to straddle 'relationship' divide with any degree of understanding from both sides. Compared to say Netmums, MN is a bit more honest, less bullshit and sugar coating. Compared to a say talkaboutmarriage it is a lot less Alpha Male/Madonna Whore bollocks.

This is why I keep coming back, it challenges my views and provides me with (some) answers without pulling punches.

I know all that keepithidden and it is not an anti male thing, it is simply about recognising how we protect this board and the people who use it for support - male and female. Since it is mumsnet this may give an appearance of anti-male bias because the person first in in more likely to be female but it is the person first in who should get the support otherwise it descends into couples fighting it out in public on the relationships board which is not likely to help anyone.

This kind of post always rings a little alarm bell in my head about whether the real motivation is actually to isolate the partner they are posting about from their source of support.

Obviously it can also be because they think the support their partner got was good and they want some too but, like most other things - solicitors, CAB etc, where there is a conflict of interest the person who got there first should take priority I think otherwise the whole offer of support is undermined.

Themonster - are you really happy with that?! No kids, not married, I'd be off quite frankly!

Yeah fair enough Offred, I should point out that I've never viewed it as 'anti male', more 'pro-female' because of the obvious majority of posters.

I see what you're saying about the PA alarm bells too. It wouldn't be the first time that something of that kin has happened on MN. Maybe I'm just too willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt...

Bertie thats why i was worried about posting
Believe it or not im fine with it!
I know its my problem that i have made him believe everything is great etc and i need to pluck up the courage to talk to him about it. Saying that, its not all about the PiV .

Just thought i could give my opinion as it could be an option for how his wife may be thinking!

Sorry - not my place Monster :)

Reading this thread through, what I'd be most concerned about is the 'vanilla' comment.

A bit of context, DH and I are fairly adventurous, I'm not anti porn for example.

We see sex as primarily a way of expressing our love for one another. That 'vanilla' sex is the foundations on which everything is is built.

If the vanilla side isn't adequate or seems lacking, please don't fall into the trap of experimenting with more to try to kick start things. That's akin to rowing couples getting married to try to fix things, or having babies to try to make things better.

Exploring sexuality is best done together, so no secrets, and when both are entirely happy and confident with what you already have. So many couples split up because exploring sexuality is exciting but a distraction so that they neglect the basic foundations and the whole lot will come crashing down as a result. Exploring boundaries shouldn't be seen as a way to reconnect because that's not the answer.

That's why porn and non-vanilla can be so damaging, those doing it should be the strongest and closest of couples, not doing it because they aren't close.

Offred - he couldn't simply be struggling to find somewhere else to get a female perspective of things. He has to be doing it because he is passive aggressive? It's the jumping to judge people I object to, on MN and in RL. His wife is not currently an active participant of this thread and anyway I don't buy the ' first in gets our support' how does that translate to your life? How would you feel if you turned to a friend for support with a relationship issue, to be told 'sorry go away I'm already supporting your DP as they got here first'. I don't want to start an argument and take over the OP's thread I just thought MN was a place people could come for advice and support, I must have missed the disclaimer advising me to make sure my DP hadn't got here first.

It's you who is jumping to conclusions babynugget. I said it can come across as PA, I don't think anyone has said he IS PA, just that posting in the place the subject of your post visits could come across that way.

I also explained that of course it might not be an attempt to undermine his partner but simply that she got good support and he wanted some too.

In answer to the last bit I think it would be highly unusual for both partners to seek support from the same person over an irresolvable relationship issue but yes I think as the friend in that situation you'd have to choose but the choice would be based on who was more entitled to your support - who you were closer to or who had no other people to lean on.

(And I'm a little offended always when men come looking for a "female" perspective, whatever that is, because I tend to think of women as people not women)

Fair enough - don't want to upset anyone and happy to agree to disagree Just hate the thought that someone who may genuinely be looking for support is sent picking that's all. The OP has had some sound advice and also perhaps some food for thought so all In all it's fairly balanced. Truce?

I thought this had thread had died!!
On the PA front, I'm confident enough that my wife is not an active member that I decided to post. If I thought she was active I wouldn't be here. The reality is, I don't have a wide circle of friends and certainly no one I would confide in on this topic. Our relationship is really good, we are best friends and we talk about nearly everything. Unfortunately, recently, my wife has felt pressured for sex and so I'm reluctant to talk about issues like this unless I have set myself boundaries for the discussion. Otherwise it tends to descend into questions about why we're not having more sex and putting more pressure on DW. With a shortage of options, MN seemed like a good sounding board.
Anyway to update. I did speak to DW. I used the porn-open-on-your-phone as a way into the conversation. She was hadn't realised it was still open and agreed to be more careful in future.
We didn't speak in depth about what she was looking at. She told me that the videos had opened by mistake. She's actually been looking at the stories with the aim of boosting her sex drive and it didn't help. (The chronic mouth problems haven't helped either - this did flare up in the evening).
I asked how she was feeling about sex generally. She says she doesn't feel anything at the moment. I asked if she finds me attractive. She says she does (emphatically). She's adamant this is just a temporary problem which will right itself when the children are older. I think I came across as understanding, she certainly seemed happy to have had the chat.