tied by an invisible string

[tigermoth]

It's my birthday on saturday and my husband asked me what I wanted to do for it. I said I wanted to have a mooch round spitalfields market and buy myself something. Most importantly I wanted to go without children. My husband hates shopping so that rules him out too. He was Ok about this, and we agreed to have a family birthday meal at home on Saturday evening.

Yesterday, my husband told me he would be taking my oldest ds (9) to the pub on Sunday to watch 'the match' on TV, so I'd 'have' to take my youngest ds (4.5) with me to Spitalfields. I was waiting for this. I told him that I'd happily cancel my trip and go another Sunday, when I could go minus children. I am honstly not fussed about celebrating my birthday another time.

My husband is still trying to dodge out of this two-son commitiment. I suspect he really wants me to suggest we get a babysitter to look after my youngest or I relocate my shopping trip to a place where there is a creche. In the the past this has been an occasional option but this time I am not going to do it. I want to phase out our dependence on this option. My son, now at school is not such a 'burden' to look after as he was when he was a toddler. Also,I don't want me going out to be dependent on us giving £20.00 or so to a babysitter. My husband knows all this but still doesn't really accept it.

My husband does loads with my oldest son - football, fishing, cinema trips, staying up late together to watch TV when I've gone to bed, cooking together - they are best buddies. I couldn't ask for more. However, as dh says, most of these activities are only relaxing or indeed possible without my youngest ds. He says he does all this stuff with the oldest so it's only fair that I look after the youngest. My husband does the school pick up and looks after both sons for two or three hours till I return from my job each day, so he has lots of input anyway. He is also happy to look after my youngest or both sons if I have an appointment, have to do a supermarket run or there's an emergency - as he should be of course. I can twist his arm and get him to look after both sons if I need to go out to see friends, but really it's a new concept to him that I might want him to take both sons quite willingly while I have some fun. My husband does have time alone for fun and I don't begrudge him that.

Since my youngest ds was born, I have accepted that my dh will gravitate towards looking after my oldest son while I look after my youngest, but I made it clear all along that I would only accept this while pushchairs and nappies loomed large in his life. Once he was of school age I would want more freedom. And now that time has come.

I know in the end I will get my spitalfields alone trip, but I really don't want to have a major argument with my dh about all this. I wondered if anyone else has a dh who is reluctant to look after one of their children, but eager to look after the other(s)? Also comments on how I can get dh to look after both without starting a third world war every time.

Incidently, his parents are just the same. Whenever we stay with them they are eager to look after my oldest ds but never offer to look after the youngest, except to babysit in the evenigs, so if I want to do anything more adult orientated, I have to take my youngest with me. I am not tied to my youngest ds by an invisible string and indeed would like to spend time alone with my oldest while my pils look after my youngest, but this never ever happens, despite hints from me. My youngest ds is very confident and sociable and is certainly not clinging to me alone. I love him and appreciate the time we spend together minus his big brother, but at times I feel stir crazy.

Hiya unfortunately, I don't have anything constructive to say except that I knwo how you feel.

My dh is great looking after our eldest 5, but has NEVER had both ds's at once youngest being 2, he seems to find it amazing that I dare even ask him to look after them both whilst I have ME time, he even sends one upstairs whilst Ihave a bath so as not to look after two.

I can wholeheartedly understand where you are coming from on the in-laws. I said from the day dd2 was born that sleeping over at nanna's would be taken in turns,but no, the quite often phone up to have the eldest but so far have NEVER phoned up to ask for the youngest, its all I can do to get them to babysit on an evening, I have known my in-laws go 9 weeks without seeing their grandchildren and they live a 5 minutes drive away, I refuse to go to their house as his mother insists on chain smoking in from of them and it makes them cough. I have had a real fight on my hands trying them to have the youngest for tonight whilst I hold a charity do, but when they have the eldest they bring her back about 3 the next day, with them having the youngest they have said she is coming back at 8.30am.

So I do know you feel in some instances.

Tigermoth, I do feel for you and I do think this is terribly unfair. I don't have any experience of this though (although I'm aware that I may well do at a later stage when dd is older and it's the easier option to have ds for the day!) and can only offer you sympathy. I really think your dh ought to give you this as your birthday present, could you lay on the emotional blackmail a bit?

Is your dh aware that ds2 might start to notice how differently the two of them are treated? It is very very important that he treat them equally for them as well as for you. Do you think he might take it to heart more if you put it like that?

Oooohhhh get up really early and sneak out without them noticing and be alone all day - they can't be cross is your b'day afterall.

I would be worried to that he treats the kids so differently - he needs to do things to include your youngest son or he is gonna start feeling left out - why on earth can't he take him along to the pub too??

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I don't think emotional blackmail will work. My dh already knows spitalfields is my birthday treat. I could throw a tantrum, and I know if I did I could get my way this Sunday, but there would certainly not be a happy atmosphere to my birthday meal at home on Saturday evening.

Anyway I don't want to stamp my feet about my rights because then it will be a 'yes ok, this once since you will not let it lie, but don't expect me to do this again when you shout your orders at me, especially looking at all the times I spend with the boys etc etc.

The same reaction will occur if I sneak off early on Sunday morning. I will not be playing fair so how can I expect him to be fair etc etc. In fact, twinkie, my dh has had years of me sneaking off early on sunday mornings to go to boot sales. I used to not wake him, even set his clock for a different time so if he woke he thought it was still night, then arrive back before he or my ds had woken up properly. He accepted this, but not happily.

So am I left with a steady drip drip drip approach - all perfectly reasonable - not convenient for you this sunday, ok what about next sunday, or the sunday after.... will this work in the end? has anyone seen it work?

tigermoth, did your DH do much with DS1 when he was 4, or is all their activity together now a more recent thing?

janster, yes I have said to my husband that my youngest ds will notice that he gets taken out less by my dh. Dh has taken this on board and now spends lots more 'quality time' with my youngest ds him at home usually after school when my oldest ds gets immersed in his gameboy. He's making a big effort to read him books, play with him more etc etc, to make up for the times when he takes ds1 out alone to more 'older boy' things. Good for my ds2, but it still doesn't solve my problem.

I think that my inlaws and my dh have just got so used to me being a mother with young child and that image has stuck. The big age gap between my children means that for 10 years I have had either a baby or a 5 year old or younger to look after. I accept that imposes limitations for both dh and I on how we spend our leisure time. It is harder to take a young child to a restaurant, on a shopping trip, to the cinema etc etc. But now at long last the limitations are receeding BUT no one has noticed this except me!

Very difficult one Tigermoth. I can quite see that you don't want to ruin your birthday by having a big confrontation about it - I wouldn't want to do that either.

If hints have not worked, then maybe it is time to sit down and have a discussion (not an argument) with your DH about time alone without the kids - pointing out that he has time without them, and that you want - need - some of the same.

Good luck anyway, and enjoy your birthday.

janh, my dh did do more with my oldest ds when he was 4. He had to because I was working at least one day at the weekends. When I wasn't working I wanted to spend all my time with my ds, so the problem rarely arose. But yes, he has experience of lookoing after 4 year olds. Dh has said he will do more with my youngest ds 'when he is easier to take out' but that is so open to interpretation isn't it?

Well, I can see that DS2 wouldn't be an asset watching football at the pub, but in that case he shouldn't have said he'd take DS1.

Now he has said that, and you have said OK you'll go another time, could you book uncancellable cinema tickets for all 3 of them for the following Sunday - am assuming there will be a film they can all appreciate? - and present him with them - fait accompli?

How would he react?

Mine always says ,when asked to take a kid to B and q or wherever

" well its quicker if I go alone" yes well life IS quicker without kids!!

I think your dh sounds a bit like me! Mine are only 22 months apart, but I always feel more 'in tune' with ds1, and his current interests, than ds2. So given an option I would always choose to have ds1 on his own, and go and do something together.

Having said that, mine are only 22 months apart, so it must be even harder with a 4 yr age gap.

What is it that's most bothering you?
(1) That you don't have "me" time
(2) That your dh seems to prefer spending time with one over the other?
(3) That you are quite willing to make the effort to look after two at once, but dh isn't?
(4) That dh seems to prefer ds1 over ds2?
or (5) That dss are not encouraged to do things together?

What happens during holidays - do you do things as 4 altogether, or do you split up mostly 2+2 or 3+1?

I guess I'd like to say something helpful, but am not sure I can! My preferance is generally for 2+2, but then we're generally under a lot less pressure than you anyway ... haven't even got a job at all at the moment, so I have more "me time" than I want

Anyway - hope you have a fantastic birthday tomorrow.

I've been pondering about getting all three of them cinema tickets, janh. That's definitely a thought in the right direction. I think I'll do it only after checking what film they all want to see first, and checking that the particular Sunday is an OK one for dh to have them. If I didn't do this and presented it to my dh as a fait accompli, he would only go if he wanted to and say 'tough luck' (or stronger words to that effect) if he didn't.

I want to get my way, but play fair IYSWIM, as this gives more hope for the future. I don't want this dad-taking-care-of-both-boys-while-mummy-has-fun-alone scenario to be a one-off thing.

As it stands, my dh has said he will take the boys next Sunday, 'sports permitting', so as yet no firm commitment. I know him well. He he wants me to be happy for my birthday and doesn't want me to make him feel guilty, but he's not promising me anything 100%.

Tigermoth, make him do it. Even if he doesn't promise you, make him take the boys on the day. Not in the hard line way, but make him accept it.

It's just not that much to ask.

roisin, the motives behind my wish to have 'me' time are selfish I just want to step up the time I have to myself, and get dh to factor in my 'me time' to our weekend plans more often. The problem is one of perception.

My dh and my pils are amazed and relieved that I am the sort of person who enjoys trips to legoland with the boys - I positively look forward to that sort of thing. But just because I enyoy taking the boys out does not mean that I don't enjoy taking 'me' out alone. I really think it's been conveniently forgotten.

I feel my dh does pay lots of attention to my youngest son. I take my cue from my son's reaction to this. He rarely asks to go out with daddy and ds1 and does not seem to feel he is not favoured. If he felt left out, I would have something to say to dh. As it is, ds2 seems perfectly happy with the present arrangement.

When I wasn't working last year, I too had much more 'me' time, so the pressure wasn't on. But now I am working and ds2 is older .... times change and everyone has to adapt.

thanks for the birthday wishes and I hope your job hunting (if that's what you are doing) is successful soon. Though as this thread shows, every situation brings its own problems.

Hiya! Everyone deserves some regular "me time" - hope you manage to talk him round soon, without it becoming a cause of strife between you ... Why is it that men sometimes are so slow to see things from someone else's point of view?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TIGERMOTH!! Hope you had a good one and found some me time, you definetly deserve it. You sound like such a great mum to your kids and a really fair person too. IMO it sounds a little like maybe your DH and you have got into a mind set that your youngest is difficult to take out and therefore you must all split up if you're going out. Perhaps your little one needs more practice out with the family in order to learn how better to behave and how to stress Daddy (and Mummy??) out less. I do know that sometimes its hard and you wonder why oh why did you bother ( i did stop taking my little one out for a few months) but eventually they do pass through the phases I have 4yrs 12 yrs and 13yrs big age differences but there is so much you can do together (all four or 2+1)parks, walks, swimming, cinema, play areas/ museums, farms, zoos, etc, Or is it that your DH doesnt like doing purely child related stuff out of the house? What does he most enjoy doing with elder son? Is it possible to now include the younger one? perhaps put it to him that younger son wants to be included and isnt it time that he got the same opportunities as big son with his Dad? Hope some of this helps and if its a load of C just ignore me! Happy Birthday and good luck!!!:0

stace, you are so right - yes, my husband especially has got into a mindset that my youngest is difficult to take out. And yes again, my husband is no fan of kiddy type days out - hates theme farms, parks, etc etc.

That hasn't mattered a jot to me because I like taking both sons to this sort of stuff and hate to suffer a grumpy husband on these trips out. My husband is now getting so much pleasure in sharing his favoured activities, like fishing and proper cooking, with the 9 year old.

My youngest ds is very lively and can be a handful in public places like restaurants, but isn't impossible. Dh and I have been conscioulsy trying to introduce him to more formal activities, to get him used to them - ie on holiday we went for a family meal out in a posh restaurant and we now have a formal sit down at the dining table meal at home once or twice a ti a week. Ds2 will behave if he's given loads of attention and support, but it demands effort from the adults. dh knows this and knows taking both sons out spells the end of relaxed buddy time with ds1, who needs far less attention to be good. dh also gets more wound up if ds2 is lively in public. I let it wash over me more. If I didn't I would go mad

I know as time goes by, ds2 should get easier to take out. Ds 1 was a lively little soul when he was younger. However, the calming down was very gradual and tbh, he was still playing up a bit when he was 7 years old. I am not going to wait for ds2 to catch up if it's going to take another 2.5 years. Major things like nappies and pushchairs are now gone and I feel the time is right to make a bigger bid for freedom.

Go for it!!! I'm also wondering what kind of interaction occurs between the siblings can you enlist big bro into occupying and showing little bro how to behave nicely, eat nicely etc in restaurants what about big bro showing little bro how to do other stuff is this an option. How about kites in the park i always found that a good energy user that doesnt really need any skill. Little one should just run and run and bigger one may like it and Dad may even enjoy it as its quite and uncrowded. Am i reading things right. Oh why oh why is it always up to us women to figure it all out and manouvre them all into place. You'll get it sorted i have know doubt about that!!! R U HAving a nice birthday, did you get any nice pressies and whats the outcome with spitalfields.

stace, thanks for the kind words. Yes, I do feel I am having to manouevre them all into place and if I don't do it, no one else will.

I did have a good birthday and got a firm promise from dh of him looking after both boys one Sunday. I know he is feeling times are a changing because off his own bat he offered to take both boys to the skateboard park yesterday, after taking ds1 one watch the football match on TV. But then he decided the weather looked too dodgy and he changed his mind.....still at least he offered out of the blue.

His birthday card to me read 'it's your birthday, so do something you shouldn't'
Twinkie's suggestion about running off to spitalfields early in the morning, before dh woke up, instantly sprung to mind I didn't, though.
But throughout the day, I actually felt more annoyed than I'd anticipated - I was in a snappy mood with everyone until the evening. I feel so much that I am in the right, that I can't disguise it.

ps - thank you everyone who wished me a happy birthday, and gave me all those exclamation marks and smilies.

that's because you are in the right tigermoth.