Insight needed over here regarding dp and money

[Lameduck]

NC!

Just had row with dp over money - initially it started over me moaning the kitchen needed doing up but then unfolded to this ..

We normally get on great - rarely argue and I'm probably the more dominate one in the relationship .

I have been with dp four four years - we have just had a beautiful ds. I'm currently on maternity and will only be going back one day a week due to staggering child care costs.

I have an older ds not to dp.

We don't receive any tax credits apart from child benefit so it's just dp money we will be really living off .

We have talked about marriage, location,what we would wear ect..but I get the impression of dp it's a while of yet.

Dp and his siblings own three houses that they rent out. We live in one of them. He mentioned the other day that ds2 will get a share of his and siblings houses if he died, I jokingly enquired " what about me?!" And he replied " oh don't worry my family would all ways let you stay" ...

I was a bit took back but at a family do so couldn't really discuss further.

It dawned on me that, I could live in this house for thirty, fourth years, help him pay the mortgage off and not be entitled to fuck all if any thing happens.

So, I've been talking to him about saving up and buying a place together so my ds would have sone kind of inheritance and I round have the security of being on the mortgage.

I have a bit of debt, not massive - few thousand but bad credit.

So argument unfolded when I said, I didn't want to stay in this house forever and help pay his mortgage off and get nothing in return. He took that to me meaning that I wanted a share in the house . And started bleeting about how hard he has worked to get it.. I actually don't want a share in this house as I fucking hate it, it's too small, it's not my forever house. He also said it was hard to get a mortgage as I had bad credit.

But I would like to save so we can buy together.

He came back with, " how can you save, your not earning any money? "

I've just hit the roof and told him " I had no money " as I was at home looking after our daughter and I will invoice him for the child care.

I'm in a shit situation now. He is right , I don't have any money , but I actually thought it was our money

If I need anything,he will give it to me but it shouldn't be like that.

I'm going to have it out with him tomorrow any advice.

Either he was blindsided by the discussion or there are some larger issues you have to address. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I'd open up the entire situation for discussion eg how you split childcare costs if you go back to work because you need security; how you both move onto the property ladder together; how you split finances if you only go back to work 1 day per week (I'm concerned that he might see it as you being bad with money and him having to give you his money to help you out. You shouldn't have to ask for money if you're staying home to care for dcs. You're a family unit and the finances have to be viewed jointly).

I wouldn't fixate on the issue with this house. It is important but it isn't the only issue here and you don't want him to negate the very important points you're making because he feels you want a share in a house that he can't give you. If the house is jointly owned then he can't easily changed that. However, that makes it even more imperative that you have a plan for purchasing a house that you can own together.

Do his siblings own houses with their partners in addition to the 3 you've mentioned? Or are they all in a similar situation as you and your dp (ie living in one of the shared ownership properties)? If the former then that supports your argument that you should both be looking to purchase another house together. If the latter, then their partners may share your perspective.

I would seriously consider (and broach with him) the possibility of going back to work more days that just one. If your child care costs equal your salary then it doesn't matter if you go back one day a week or five days (or something in between). Childcare costs should not be just burdened by you and there are plenty of reasons for continuing working outside of money and covering childcare costs: career, status, sanity etc

Also broaching it with him and his reaction would give another clue as to how he really feels about you and the equality in your relationship. Because this is what this is about. How he values your input, both financial, emotional and labour-wise in the relationship. At the moment he is sending out a signal that you are somewhere between a lodger and a nanny.

How is he about other things in the relationship such as housework, childcare, leisure time? Does he pull his weight and do you have equal leisure time because again that is another indicator of how he values you.

Btw I am only suggesting you go back to work more from a financial security angle (as in your financial security). If you don't want to then that's fine too, but obviously there are financial implications of that for you and not him, as you are beginning to find out.

1. Write a will.
2. You will be in a safer position if you go back to work for a greater proportion of the week than 1 day, in terms of your ongoing earning power. Childcare costs may be worth absorbing, given the long term advantages to you of financial independence.
3. Stop paying/don't pay towards the mortgage or any maintenance or decorating costs or equivalent for any house you don't own.
4. Reducing your level of debt is important too.

I agree with previous posters and wouldn't reduce my hours to 1 day per week given the house situation and his comments.

I agree with others - better to work more, earn more, have better career prospects going forward if you ever do need to be financially independent in future.
If you feel strongly that this isn't for you, get married and both write wills. If your DP won't do this, definitely spell out your contribution in equivalent financial terms (cost of nanny and housekeeper combined if you provide all the childcare while he works and run the house - obviously I do not regard your role in family life as limited to these or responsible for them more than he is overall - but merely to demonstrate to him the cost to you as a couple if these functions had to be outsourced).
With the issues around the shared ownership of the house (and you hating it) surely it's better to look for a house to ghee and rent this one out.

A house to buy together, not ghee! And further up I meant actually not actual! Stupid iPhone. Stupid me.

Oh dear very complicated. I would indeed want my own security. If he can't provide that, ltb, take him to court for maintenance, or at least explain to him that's the option you have.

Sorry but I couldn't be that insecure :(

"...we have just had a beautiful ds. I'm currently on maternity and will only be going back one day a week due to staggering child care costs"

"...I have an older ds not to dp."

"...So, I've been talking to him about saving up and buying a place together so my ds would have sone kind of inheritance and I round have the security of being on the mortgage.... I have a bit of debt, not massive - few thousand but bad credit..."

"...also said it was hard to get a mortgage as I had bad credit...."

Yes, he hasn't softened the blow for you, but his position is 100% sober & logical, as a man should be. You are asking him to enter into a financial commitment (i.e. mortgage etc.) with someone who has a bit of a dodgy financial position. Why should he do that?

"...We have talked about marriage, location,what we would wear ect..but I get the impression of dp it's a while of yet."

Given the above, I'm not surprised he isn't chomping at the bit to sign the marriage register. Put yourself in his shoes, with a partner who has your financial position as outlined above. Would you jump to marry this man and give him a route to potentially half your assets (and essentially drag your co-owner siblings into it)?... Really?

"....I actually don't want a share in this house as I fucking hate it...."

That's not a very nice attitude given (I'm guessing) you and your older son are probably living there for less than market rent?.... which in principle would provide a good opportunity for most people renting.

"...I don't have any money , but I actually thought it was our money

Why?... Why would you think 'his' money is 'our' (i.e. your) money? Did he say this to you.

"...I'm going to have it out with him tomorrow any advice."

1. DO NOT 'have it out' with him, as I doubt you have little to gain by having a fight with him on this.

1. Put together an actual working PLAN as to what you would like and how you think you can both go about getting it in a way that is fair for BOTH of you. Doesn't matter if you project it over 5, 6, 7 years. Make it realistic - show him it can work.

1. Yes - STAY LOGICAL. Don't try to manipulate him emotionally. He sounds like a pretty stoic man who won't fall for it (but I accept that you will know him best).

Also think you should consider returning to work more hours. Your salary doesn't pay childcare, both your salaries do.
Also consider your pension. Do you have one? If you both choose that you're a SAHM then the money that he is earning should be used to pay into a pension for you.
You are leaving yourself very vulnerable financially, and job-wise. Even mores I because you're not married.
I personally wouldn't have chosen to go on maternity leave when I owed thousands, but I appreciate that not all pregnancies are planned so that might but have been a choice.

Why the hell are people advising the OP to marry a man who doesn't regard her as his equal

Since when was marriage a solution to relationship problems?

Marriage is what 2 people in a good strong stable relationship do, or at least it should be.

I couldn't agree more Joysmum.

ola sober and logical my arse. If he's so bothered about her financial position, why did he have a child with her? And then expecting her to stay at home with said child while he complains about giving her financial security?

OP, go back to work properly. At least part-time. And make sure he pays half the childcare costs. Then after essentials (rent, bills etc) focus on reducing your debt. Because from what you've said, he won't help you, even if you stay at home. At least this way you'll always have your own money.

Have you considered going back to work, paying your debt off and buying your own investment flat?
I'm coming from this as someone in your would be position (debt unmarried, sahm). We rent privately (so I suppose a bit like you as your other half is your 'landlord'). It's left me very vulnerable financially and the childcare costs are only for the first few years.

Your position in this relationship from an emotional, financial and legal perspective is extremely poor. His money remains his money, he has never regarded it as "ours".

I can also see you going your separate ways over this as he will not change.

He is fundamentally selfish as an individual (I doubt very much whether he would even want to make you any sort of part owner to a property and is happy as the way things are) and daft also to think that his family would let you stay in the event of his passing. You would become reliant on his family and they could all too easily throw you and your child out. Well you anyway.

Given your own level of personal debt why on earth are you making part mortgage payments, you are not even named on the mortgage. You have allowed yourself to become financially dependent on him which is a huge mistake to make in this day and age particularly as you are unmarried.

You cannot rely on him to help you. He will likely not do so and will put his own siblings and mother before you.

I've not read the whole thread in detail but I think the crux of this is that you have different definitions of what constitutes security and commitment. OP you like being self-sufficient, earning your own money, and you feel insecure now that your income stream has been temporarily cut off and you find yourself dependent on a partner that does not appear to be fully committed to you and, by extension, the goodwill of his family. Your partner OTOH seems very casual about the same things, rather passive, naive and trusting... 'the family will provide'... and is quite happy to bobble along with the status quo because it's the easy option. Why marry when things are OK just as they are? I'm not getting 'selfish' so much as 'immature'. He's happy to rely on others.

I think both are at fault here, though, the partner for not outlining sooner that this is not heading towards marriage and a sharing of assets, and the OP for having just given up a job to become financially dependent on this man without the security of marriage- Op, all the advice to get back to work and not rely on him financially is good. I would take childcare out of both your wages- of course it doesn't pay if only you pay the childcare- but if you only pay 50% and 50% comes out of his wage, you have more money yourself to pay bills, buy your own property, do whatever you like (I know the effect on the family is the same, but at the moment he seems to think that childcare is your bill and that he doesn't have to pay it).

Be blunt- say to him, if you want me to stay home and look after our (your) child, then we have to pool resources to do this, including making me financially secure in the house. If you don't want to do this, I will go back to work as I need to secure my own family's future.

Sometimes this type of thinking is just reflexive, and he may not have genuinely thought it through.

I do think this is asking a lot of him though, basically you are putting in bad debts into the situation, he's putting in three houses (if you take out childcare because you could both pay for that). Perhaps some compromise about one of the houses could be reached without touching the others.

You have a ds together, an older ds and you mention looking after your daughter together. From experience - so I'm not getting at you for this as I never married either. Far better to be married when having children for better financial protection.
I'm guessing a few years have gone by since you have been together, so I am surprised that you have only just thought of this. Surely this position was obvious at the moving in stage. You have no legal claim to his estate as not married and no jointly named assets, but have gone on to have 2 children. Then again you are still in thousands of debt after this time so I don't rate your personal chances of ever being able to save enough to buy a house 'with' him as only working 1 day a week, it's likely that you will need more years just to pay the debt off.
What it seems you have done is continue in life to make the bad financial decisions that likely got you in debt in the first place so this is where you have ended up, reliant on someone's good will to provide.
I'm not sure that you can entirely blame your DP for this, you after all, decided to move in to his place and have children without any legal financial protection so the responsibility for that is half yours.
There were signs that he did not see his assets as joint, otherwise he would have already paid your debt off for you but it seems he sees it as yours only to deal with. Sorry but the writing has been on the wall for a while with this. Your best hope is that your relationship proves to be successful and you do end up married. I wish you look in that.

This situation right here is a product of our wonderful modern society. We don't need to get married anymore because it's 'just a bit of paper' and our love is stronger than a few words in a church or registry office. However directly there are children and financial changes it somehow highlights just how vulnerable we are.

I would and often do feel exactly the same OP but unfortunately your bed is now made. You can't go back and undo events, you have two beautiful children and are able to look after them whilst your partner works - so in many ways you are in a better position than many.

I imagine your partner was settled with the status quo, now suddenly you are throwing a whole load of new expectations at him and he is being defensive.

Only you can say how your relationship is the rest of the time. Do you feel you get on and communicate well? Have you any reason to believe he isn't fully commuted to you and your immediate family?

I think when you're used to earning your own money and dealing with your outgoings independently it's pretty bloody scary when no money is now coming in. But this don't be forever. Personally I wouldn't be contributing towards a mortgage unless I had some paperwork to show it either entitled me to a share in the house or in the case of a break up of would be entitled to some of it back.

he comes from a back ground if that it's only natural for women to give every thing up...He can just about wash his plate after me pilling them up at the side of his head in bed!

There are more problems in your relationship than just money, OP.

He doesn't see you as an equal. That is the root of the problem, and one that is not curable by marriage.

ola why would I try and manipulate him? I made it clear in the thread I didn't want anything out f the houses he already own. I was f/t work before I had ds,so why should suffer with having no income myself, his child is our child, so yes , his money is our money as we are a family unit. The thread was actually about him saying I couldn't save as I didn't have money. It's not like I have given up work to sit on my arse, I'm looking after his child at his choice.

Some good posts here, dp came up shortly after I started the thread and apologised. He said every thing he has in mine (although legally not true) and what do I want to do to fix it. I said we can talk about it tomorrow after work as not to disturb ds. Then we had a cuddle.

Tbh this should of been dealt with ages before ds was born, in fact when I moved in. Dp would give me his last penny he has always been very generous .

Regarding paying towards mortgage , dp earns a lot more than me so I just made a contribution to bills, not a lot as dp could actually pay the lot on his wage, it just made it easier for me as I felt lost after having my own house since 18. I was probably a bit out of order last night with me saying a pay towards the mortgage . I've not paid anything towards bills since I have been on maternity .

Regarding the debt, I didn't really tell him how much it was. I didn't realise myself till I did a credit check! Major head in the sand.

He has said in the past about having joint account but I always said no need

Regarding seeing me as equal , I don't think he does, but not in a nasty way I think he like to view it as he is the hunter gatherer and I'm the little woman in doors . Which isn't me, I'm struggling with the loss of independence .

I'm going talk about him making a will in the event something happens to him that I take on his share of this house IF we reside in it.

Also that after this year, we have a big holiday coming up, we set a target and save up, albeit his/our money^ to buy a joint property will be our top priority.

He dosnt do his fare share in the house, if I ask him to do some thing he will do it, but it's not the point. That's going to get dealt with too.

Thank you!

"...why would I try and manipulate him?"

I don't know.... all I said was "don't try", because all that 'he should make me feel secure because I am the mother of his child' rhetoric is essentially emotional guff in this financial context.

He remains financially responsible for his daughter (as are you of course) regardless of his position with you, so why should he sort YOU out as well?

"...It's not like I have given up work to sit on my arse, I'm looking after his child at his choice."

Then go back to work substantially after maternity leave. As others have pointed out, there are long-term benefits to this.

Please don't labour under a victim delusion here. The choice to stop your work was not his - it was actually yours. You 'agreed' to stop work. Did he walk into your employer's office and demand (in an alpha-male voice) to cut your hours? I suspect not. You exercised your own agency, and he is not responsible for the consequences of that - YOU are. Just as he is not responsible for getting you out of your debt....

....the one you didn't/haven't told him about, even though you apparently considered 'his' money to be 'yours'.

ola there is one big flaw in your post. We are not two single people living in one house. I'm not the live in nanny or maid, I'm not his shag thing either .

We are a family that love each other, dearly. If you see it another way that's your cynical point of view not mine.

I never once implied that he should sort me out. If you read my posts you will see it was because I wanted to start saving up to buy some where together but I think you just want to see a money grabbing lazy woman .. Which I'm not. Think you might have some issues going on there ola.

Where have I ever suggested he pay my debt? It wasn't a big secret, when did I ever say I hadn't told him . it's not going to break the bank. Why are you suggesting otherwise?

If your going to quote posts , it's probably best if you dont talk out your arse.

Everybody else on the thread has been supportive except you.so I think I'll go with the majority on this one . Thanks

Well, you were thinking about 'billing' him for the childcare as though that was ever going to fly.

Sorry Lame, but I don't go with just telling people what might sound good to them. I prefer sticking with reality. If you honestly believe amongst other things that you planned to give up work at 'his' choice, then that is plainly a delusion. You make it sound as though you had no part in the decision, which then makes him the bad guy if things don't quite go right for you.

You didn't tell him 'how much' the debt was - my inaccuracy, I accept that.

However my point still stands in that you can't really consider his money to be yours. If he walked out tomorrow, would his money still be yours? No, so how realistic it is to think that money is 'yours' right now.... particularly while you haven't made financial disclosure to him about the extent of something as relevant as your debt? This is clearly relevant to 'your' desire to invest with him financially. As you say, he is quite happy with the status quo (no surprise), and it is you that wants it to change (i.e. the change would benefit you more than him - this is the reality).

I did originally say that when you discussed, you should: "...2. Put together an actual working PLAN as to what you would like and how you think you can both go about getting it...", but you may have missed that part.

Best of luck.