DH and e-mail from work colleague

[Canthpfeelinglikethis]

Hi looking for others take on this.

Married 6 years together 20 years. Very happy with two DC. DH very outgoing, the type that gets on well with everyone, very well liked by everyone and a bit flirty by nature.

A couple of years ago he became friendly with a work colleague. I was not fully aware of their friendship at the time. He did speak about her a bit as she had broken up with her bf and was internet dating so he would tell me about this and I would ask how she was getting on etc etc. After a while I started to get a little bit wary of their relationship - not sure why just instinct I suppose. Then one evening I was on his emails (he was fully aware of this) looking for something and came across an email from her to him that didn't sit right with me. It was from her saying "where will we go for lunch sexy". His reply suggested "get something and have it in his office or go to the usual cafe". Then her reply "yes your office as have no money. We can lock the door of your office right!!!!" Then him - "cop on you tart" then followed by lunch arrangements. Now at the time I found the e-mail I was very hurt as I felt very betrayed that he would think that this was ok. I confronted him and he said absolutely nothing going on, just friends, office banter and that was just her personality and how she was with other people. I told him I thought this was completely inappropriate and was not how I thought a married man should act. I asked for full access to his e-mails, phone records etc which he gave me and I looked back over all their e-mails and other than this mail there was very little else. I do have a suspicion that he may have called her once on a night out when he was drunk but found no evidence of this. It didn't stop me from being very upset and I told him to tell her how I felt and to tell her to stop this "banter" with him. He said he never viewed it the way I did but he could see how it looks to me. He did (after he spoke to her) suggest I meet her but I didn't want this as my take is that she owed me nothing and it was him that I was in a relationship with. After a lot of tears and talking I was satisfied that it was just a bit of flirting. Since this we have had another DC and are as happy as ever.

My issue - Since this happened I have to be honest that I find it hard to trust DH. 99% of the time everything is great but there is always something in the back of my mind and I feel like I am always on high alert. Reason being that I had no idea of their friendship. When this happened it turned out that they had regularly gone for lunch but he would never have told me. Every day we would ask each other what did you do for lunch but he never once told me that he had lunch with her. I found this very odd. We bumped into her and her new bf recently and since then it has brought back everything that happened a few years ago. She introduced me to the bf and said DH had already met him. DH never mentioned this. They still work together but he never mentions her and I never ask. I have no reason to doubt him at all. He is a great father and DH. We don't go out separately very often and I have no reason to think anything but I just wonder because I never knew the last time either as everything was happening during work hours.

My question is will the doubt ever go away?? Sometimes I think I am being totally irrational but I can't help how I feel. I have been reading here about EA and how most people are repeat offenders and it has just got me thinking. I hate feeling like this and wish that I could have that feeling of complete trust back again.

Thanks for reading and all comments welcome.

Calling someone 'You tart' as a joke indicates a pretty high degree of intimacy. You have to know they'll take what's quite a personal comment as a joke- otherwise it's really rude. It's a sexual reference- only to be 'enjoyed' as a joke if there's already a degree of sexual banter to put it in the right context- ie a flattering context. If it was said with you there and she was an old joint friend-different; but at work in this context as a response to her equally inappropriate suggestion? No.

Soooo - if this is an example of the kind of 'flirty nature' that your DH has- well, I think that changing it sounds an excellent idea, because it sounds the very kind of flirtiness which crosses the boundaries you comment upon. I've no idea if he has had an affair. But he's certainly struck up an inappropriate relationship at work and I'd feel pretty fucking angry and humiliated if my DH was 'flirting' like this - ie giving a verbal tongue hanging out on the floor impression. There's flirting and there's flirting. Best case scenario here is that your DH's mode of flirting is disrespectful, boundary-crossing and bloody embarrassing. Worst case is that he's slept with her. Maybe the fact that you now think that from this little exchange will make him see just how fucking awful behaving like this is.

OP, it looks like you have no further proof from your dh. The "heart beating outside his chest" also makes me think he has something to hide, he got away with it and terrified you might have found new evidence to suggest otherwise hence you are re-visiting the issue.

What is the worst case scenario? If you feel you can live with a past affair (in the worst case) and prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that it is not continuing in the present, then I think what you have done is sufficient. You have shown you are not prepared to let this go that easily and it is a warning shot across the bow if he entertains the throught of straying.

He knows you are not a 'close-one-eye' wife. Hopefully, he gets the message that that there will be dire consequences should you be proven wrong.

I agree that he should rein in the flirty behaviour. It is disrespectful to you and your marriage.

Years ago when I was about 21 I worked for a guy who was very outgoing and flirty with all of his female staff. We had a crap job selling advertising space and the laugh and jokes in the office made it more bearable. I used to send emails and receive emails like the one to your DH and there was nothing in it at all. I was single then but this guy was married with a young baby, really would have never ever dreamed of doing anything wrong - would have been shocked if his wife had seen the emails and got jealous.

However years later, I am 37 with 2 young babies and happily married too I can understand how you feel - but I am sure there is nothing in it. But do chat to your DH and perhaps he can tone the banter down a bit.

Tonandfeather - he is completely transparent in who he meets for lunch etc so to be fair to him I am happy with how he communicates now. I don't feel there is any secrecy. He definitely is crystal clear on what I think is acceptable behavior and I do think (in so much as I can) he is acting appropriately. The making him feel good etc - when I was trying to understand why he would feel the need to enter into this banter etc he said he didn't really know and that maybe it made him feel good. I do sort of understand that - I don't like it but understand it. He didn't think of it that way but in trying to understand it this is what he thought. I haven't explained that very well so sorry if you don't get what I mean. There is always going to be a bit of guessing in this because I am not there to see for myself so I can only go on what he says and how I feel. I don't see any way around this.
I get what you are saying about the mail v verbal - time to think and all that.

Fatherjake - thanks for your perspective on this. I am fully aware that people are giving their opinions probably based on there own experiences etc. I am the only one that knows my DH here so I will definitely be making my own decision on this but I have got some very good insight and thoughts from other people so I feel it has helped me. Although I have to say I am in some ways relieved when I get a post like yours that doesn't think there is anything to it.

Slightlyterrified - sorry to hear about your situation. It's hard to just forget but most of the time I do. It's just now and then that something brings it back and starts you thinking about it. Like you,we have a really great relationship and a great life together and are really happy so it's hard when these feelings come back.

What I would really like to do is completely forget and move on 100%. The main issue was so long ago now I really need to. I just hope DH realises how his behaviour has affected me and is being 100% honest with me now, I have no reason to think otherwise.

TalkativeJim - that was exactly how I felt at the time, angry and humiliated and he knows this. I do think that this has given him a big wake up call as to what is and isn't appropriate.

Blueshoes - the worst case scenario is that he cheated cause that would end everything we have. I don't know if I would want to try to mend things if this was the case.

Inadreamworld - I might think a little (not a lot though) differently if she was a young 20 something year old but she is the same age as me and DH - in our 30's so I think at that age everyone should have a fair idea of right and wrong. Obviously DH didn't but I think he does now.

Slightlyterrified - I hope you get what you are looking for and get closure once and for all. You mention that it was a long time ago. It just shows how hard it actually is to "just move on".

I'm normally reluctant to post to tell a woman that she shouldn't trust her own feelings about things like this.

But as you say it makes you feel better I'll just weigh in to say that there is nothing in anything you have written that has my spidey senses tingling.

I can see what people mean about the "cop on you tart" being intimate, but it just doesn't seem that way to me. I read it as dismissive and blowing her off.

The only thing is that he may have hidden the extent of his lunches with her, but I think it's plausible that it wasn't deliberate.

I normally get called a man-hater on here and accused of delighting in telling women to leave their marriages, but on this one I'm seeing nothing much out of the ordinary.

He crossed a boundary (I'm not sure it would be one for me, but it was for you and you were there so I think you were picking up on something that you can't bring across in text) and he's really sorry, you've made your position clear.

Someone said earlier that they thought this woman might have been trying to get a rise out of you by making a point of your DH having met her boyfriend before, and there might be something to that.

I think it's good that you raised it and probably also good if you can put it to bed.

It will never not have happened, and you have both (it seems) learned from it.

So if you're going to stay with him (and it sounds like you love him a lot) then probably best to presume the best in the absence of any evidence of the worst and put it behind you.

Joinyourplayfellows - thanks for your reassuring post. I do actually think that she may have had more invested in the "banter" than him but I kinda hate saying that because it is like I am blaming her and I really am not. She is not my partner he is and she can only be responsible for her own actions not his. Yes I do love him a lot and want all this to be behind us. I almost feel a bit silly having to bring it up again - like he will feel like I will never let it go but her comment about the bf gave me a really bad feeling. Can't describe it fully but it got to me. Then when I re-read her email I start thinking again. It's a bit of a viscous circle really. I do want to believe him though - more than anything.

It was me who said the co-worker was probably looking to unsettle you and I'm trying to think how she even managed to get it into the conversation that your husband had already met her boyfriend? Did your husband asked to be introduced and she said "you've already met"?

I don't think this is just about being open with you about things you can't prove one way or the other, it's how much his behaviour when you're NOT there has changed around women. You say he's still flirty and I think that's a big risk.

The really stupid thing here is that it's possible SOMETHING happened - just as possible as a proper affair or nothing happening at all. On the balance of probability I think something at least went down. But him insisting he didn't see her that way and she didn't fancy him either just doesn't have the ring of truth to it. If there was an isolated necking session or a thwarted affair, it would be so much better if he came clean because however horrible that might be, it's not as bad as perhaps you've been imagining. I'm one of those people who prefers dealing with the truth rather than uncertainty though and if I have doubts about something, I can't force myself not to feel them.

May seem odd but I said to DH if he ever cheated I would almost be as hurt at him laughing at me for getting away with it than I would for the cheating. Don't take me for a fool when you have trampled all over my heart.

My point for saying this to you is you are never going to find out what has gone on unless there is more to tell and he spills or there is more to tell and she tells you.

Can you live with this living with trust eroded because you can't believe him 100% and knowing he might still have cheated?

I've been in almost the exact same situation with my now XH and it was only after we split that he admitted he had had a ONS with the particular work colleague. Not what you want to hear but knowing what I know now I'd dig a little deeper

What worries me is when you said that he stopped mentioning her. I was an OW in similar circumstances and when I first started the job the MM used to talk about me to his wife all the time, this new person, blah blah, shared interests etc. Once we got together he stopped mentioning me all together to the point where he once jokingly told me that his wife had asked him if i'd left. He would have stopped mentioning her to stop any suspicion imo.

The rest of the story sounds very similar, lunches just us two, flirty emails/banter, fast track to full blown affair and destruction of life on all sides. Sorry - it just sounds so familiar.

Shirley Glass says the same thing in "Not Just Friends". Mentionitis is a big warning sign - the potentially errant partner is just so fascinated by the potential affair partner, they can't help relating everything back to something s/he said or did. They've got a crush, basically, but can't see it because they imagine everyone - partner included - must find this person as enchanting as they do. I could often tell when the ex-husbands were about to get serious with someone: on top of the mentionitis, they'd start using words the OW used, which didn't sound natural coming from the H, and/or recommending things the OW liked (XH1 gave me some very nice jewellery from her favourite shop!)

If the mentionitis stops suddenly, the crush has turned into something more solid. It's now a shared secret between them, and you are excluded.

Couples with decent awareness of how affairs happen - quite possibly from reading the book - catch this at the 'mentioning' stage. Then, you'd notice the potential other still crops up in conversation, but not all the time; without the puppy-like adoration, and with a lot more pragmatic detail about why they were in the pub together, who else was there, etc.

Of course practised cheaters are super-careful about this from the outset. But if you're with one of those, there's not much you can do about it anyway.

Tonandfeather - we met on our way into a building. Both waiting for the doors to be opened. She introduced bf to me just this is X, I said hello and then she was introducing DH and made the comment. DH really doesn't have any recollection of meeting him before. He said unless it was in passing at the office but he really doesn't remember.

I had another really good talk this evening. We rehashed a lot of the stuff we talked about before and I now remember why I believed him the last time. I asked him to explain in detail their relationship again, how it got to the stage it did. He said that when I was so upset when I found the email he realised how completely inappropriate it was. Seeing me being so upset made him completely aware how terrible his behavior was. He spoke to her about it but basically to say they wouldn't be friends anymore because what they were doing was juvenile and so inappropriate. That he was not willing to hurt me like this ever again and that it was going to stop. I asked why he felt he had to cut all ties rather than just cut out the inappropriate conversations he said that it just wasn't worth having her as a friend when it upset me so much. He didn't want me to be upset or anxious every time her name came up. Their friendship just wasn't worth that. The only person that mattered was me. I asked how she took this and he said he didn't discuss this with her rather he told her this was how it was going to be. Since then he does not have this banter with anyone. He is still friendly etc but nothing that is beyond the boundaries. I know a lot have commented on the fact that I refer to him as flirty in nature. When I say this I don't mean in an inappropriate way at all but more a friendly way like he would always have a bit of banter with the people and is a bit of a messer. Also on the lunches he said that mostly a group of them lunched together and it wasn't like they were sneaking off every day or even every week to go for lunch. They just went to lunch as friends both together and with others. Just a point - he also never told me when a group of them met for lunch which they did quite regularly - I do know this from other mails at that time.

To talk about it again was actually very useful for me as I got to ask a lot of things that I didn't ask at the time or that I had forgotten.

So after all that I do believe there was nothing physical or even emotional between them. He said he is very sad that I feel like this again. He said that when we got through it the last time that he felt like we had got over a huge hurdle as he knew how wrong he had been and how hurt I was. He said he feels a bit frustrated that he has no way that he can prove to me that nothing ever happened but more importantly that he never wanted anything to happen. Obviously I know that this isn't possible for him to do. I do know that he does love me and I him.

Thanks everyone who has posted over the last few days. It really has helped me so much.

What a positive update! Well done :) . How are you feeling about this now?

Your update sounds positive and I hope it puts your mind at rest.

I do know how you feel and GarlicReturns thread above is spot on.

I have been with DP for years and we work in the same place (but in different bits of the building and seperate departments). I knew DP got on with his immediate colleagues well. But like Garlic said "mentionitis" started with a girl he worked with. She is exactly his type, (I am the opposite!)

Anyway after snooping I discovered that they were always on their fag breaks together, always, they were texting quite often and always went for coffee breaks together, infact there is gossip in the building about them!

Its just the fact that is was all so hidden i genuinely didnt have a clue that any of this was going on (I was on maternity leave - nice) and only realised all this was going on just before I got back to work.
He was getting close to her and keeping me in the dark about it.

Of course a series of massive rows have happened and to be fair to DP he has cut the amount of contact he has with her and has promised me that he doesnt fancy her (i still dont believe that bit).

I was also pissed off when he was talking about my birthday with her and didnt know what to get me so she suggested to get me some jewlerry (it was not something I would normally wear or was interested in) and they looked it up on the net and he got me one. He didnt tell me any of this but she slipped up and said something to me so I asked him.

Things have got back to normalish but I am still hyper alert for any mention of her.

He doesnt really mention her at all anymore so I am now wondering if it is because contatct has decreased or because of what happened.

As DP was hiding all his contact with this girl he must of known i wasnt happy about it or maybe it was the thrill in hiding it from me?

GarlicReturns - I feel so much better having spoken about it again. I absolutely know he is ashamed and so sorry that he ever put me in the position of feeling like this. And I do believe that he has not engaged in anything like this since.
I think it was a real wake up call for him at the time. It made him realise how stupid and improper he was being and how so disrespectful that it was to me as his wife. I do genuinely think now that he didn't see anything in it at the time and that he never had any feelings for her other than as a friend.

I know that he will always have acted like that and nothing can ever change that but the fact that I believe that there was no malice or intent in it makes me feel better. He is very very sad that he ever disrespected me like this so that also helps.

I think from here on if I ever get feelings like this again I will just talk to him about it straight away rather than trying to work it out in my own head. All he wants is for me to trust him 100% and he is willing to do anything to regain that trust. I now recognize that he has already done everything in his power to do this by changing how he acts and speaks to others. I do love him and I hope that this in some way can have a positive impact on our relationship.

Thanks again for all the help. It is good to get others views.

That's a great update. It does sound like he is drawing his boundaries much more clearly and nothing did happen.

BadlyShavedYetti - sorry to hear you are having a hard time. The point about her being his type. We actually spoke about this last night. I actually think that my DH and his work colleague have very similar personalities. He agreed. They both had same sense of humor etc. Like you I feel myself and DH have quite different personalities. I would be a lot more shy than him. I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing though. I hope you can get closure on this as I know how it can eat away at you. My advice from all that I have been through is to talk to him about it. Even if it means going over it all again as this is the only way you will work it out. He needs to prove to you in so far as is possible that there was nothing going on. I was a little "afraid" about bringing it all up again because I sort of felt a little silly. Like why would we need to go over it again but my DH was happy that we discussed it and answered all my questions again (very honestly I feel). You know your DH best so hopefully you can understand where he is coming from.
Take care and best of luck

The good thing about this is that it's got you talking about behaviour and expectations.

I'm a bit cynical I admit about him needing to see your reaction back then to realise his behaviour was inappropriate. It doesn't suddenly make it inappropriate just because you found out about it. Plus if this really was just flirting, his Hair Shirt and "we must have nothing to do with eachother from now on" stance with this co-worker seems a bit over the top to me. Not if something more had happened, obviously. If this was just office banter as some correspondents are suggesting, wouldn't his co-worker have thought he was a bit of a loon who needed to get over himself?

Bottom line though is that you seem happy with the outcome and even if you're never sure about what happened, at least this has been a shot across the bows and a reminder about respectful behaviour both in a marriage and at work with co-workers.

"It doesn't suddenly make it inappropriate just because you found out about it."

But that's not what he said, he said that he didn't REALISE it was inappropriate until he saw it through the OP's eyes.

Which is not remotely surprising or hard to believe if you've ever met any humans.

Once he saw the e-mail as she was seeing it he realised he was being a dick.

"Plus if this really was just flirting, his Hair Shirt and "we must have nothing to do with each other from now on" stance with this co-worker seems a bit over the top to me."

It seems to me that you want this both ways.

He's simultaneously NOT SORRY ENOUGH and WAY TOO SORRY.

Given that his wife almost left him over this woman, his unwillingness to remain friends with her makes sense to me.

"If this was just office banter as some correspondents are suggesting, wouldn't his co-worker have thought he was a bit of a loon who needed to get over himself?"

But he said himself that he didn't care what she thought about his decision and she got no input on it.

So what difference does it make?

I've met loads of humans thanks and as i've said before, no co-worker I've met would ever need someone else to tell him or her that suggesting office doors were locked and replying 'cop on you tart' was inappropriate behaviour, either at work or when in a marriage.

I wonder whether so many excuses would be made for the co-worker who is a woman? That she needed the poster's husband to point out to her that this behaviour was over the line before she realised it was? I do find too many excuses being made for men that don't seem to be made for women in exactly the same position.

What I CAN see for what this is worth is that he knew darned well it was inappropropriate but it took seeing his wife's reaction to it to see the hurt he'd caused. Maybe too at that point he mused that if she'd been doing that with her own co-worker he wouldn't have liked it either.

But I don't buy this dumbass men excuse, no.

Tonandfeather - I really now think that it never crossed his mind until it came up because there was nothing to it. He never saw her in any way other than a friend nor did he ever want anything to happen between them. It was only when pointed out to him that he realised how utterly childish he was being carrying on like he was still at school. It's hard to explain and put into words what I mean but I do get it.

I did ask about the "having nothing to do with her thing" - and I do get his explanation for this. Maybe his reasons for choosing this route is backed up by what I am going through now. If her name was coming up in conversation all the time or even occasionally he felt that this would be like "rubbing my nose in it" and a constant reminder of how utterly stupid he had been carrying on. It was not worth continuing their friendship because it just wasn't worth that to him. He didn't think their friendship was important enough to continue if there was any risk that it might make me feel uneasy. I do also get this too. I am glad that he doesn't still meet with her to be honest. Even though at the time this is not what I asked him to do. I only asked to cut out the "banter". She did ask at the time and say "but why sure there was nothing ever going on" but this is what he wanted to do for me. She appears to have respected his wishes in this regard but I suppose she also doesn't have a choice. I think this was also part of him doing something to regain my trust.

She may think I am a little unhinged to have felt so strongly about it but do you know what I don't care what she thinks and neither did DH. He just made the decision to break all contact to save any potential uneasiness I might feel in the future - probably like exactly what I have been going through now. So maybe he was right to cut all contact to save me feeling this way.

I think he was right to cut contact. I think you are both right not to care what she thinks. I do kinda hope that he didn't say it was just because of your reaction though and said it was because HE thought it was inappropriate. You shouldn't have come into this at all.

Why do some people feel the need to specify they went for lunch "as friends." Surely if you are married it should hopefully be a given you aren't going as lovers!