Has anyone ever had "a talk" with a difficult/ narrassistic parent?

[mermaid101]

I have posted about my mum on here a few times. I think she had some narrassistic tendencies.

I have noticed that over the last couple of years she has managed to fall out with practically her whole family apart from my sister and me and some of her friends.

She is not self aware or self reflecitve but readiing between the lines of what she tell me, some of her friends seem to be "phasing her out".

My sister and I do not find her easy. We would like to have a better, more positive relationship with her. We are also concerned she ends up completely isolated. We think the best course of action might be to have a fairly frank discussion with her. We realise this will be difficult , but feel something must be done.

Has a anyone ever done this and had any sort of success?

I realise there are few details/ examples in this message. I don't want to make it too lengthy but am happy to answer any questions .

Thanks for all these responses. All very, very similar!

It might appear our idea may not be the best way forward. We did anticipate the hysteria, tears and screaming/shouting others have described, but had planned to remain impervious throughout. The point about her saying something extremely hurtful which would stay with us for a long time, is not a problem we had considered, but is a real and dangerous threat.

I can't say for certain if my mother is an actual narcissist. I have read several of the web sites suggested her and often look at the "Stately Homes" thread. She certainly displays traits/tendencies. Where the "tipping point" comes between being generally difficult and judgemental and being a narcissist is I'm not sure.

Thanks everyone for sharing. It's been astonishing how similar behaviours are. Folk girl , my mum had said all the things you describe, including the Dr thing. It's amazing.

Given that a big talk might not be the way forward, does anyone have any other suggestions/advice?

My sister and I don't feel it is essential to address any issues from the past/our childhoods( although there are many). We would be happy to tackle her current behaviour in isolation.

I have the same difficulties with my sister (hope you still find it relevant).

I got so fed up of walking on eggshells with her that I sent her a letter, explaining which bits of her behaviour I found unpleasant and asking her to start giving more consideration to someone other than herself. I literally spent a week drafting and redrafting that letter.

Needless to say, it went down extremely badly, and I ended up going NC with her about 8 months later. I was the best thing I have ever done in terms of putting my own happiness first. My Mum is still unhappy with me about it and sticks up for my sister. My Dad OTOH said to me very quietly "... couldn't have worded it better myself dear ...."

It has meant I no longer see her, or my niece and nephew, but this is cancelled out by my DD not suffering.

So, go ahead with your talk, it would be fantastic if it works, but sadly I think you need to be prepared that it could possibly make things worse.

Good Luck!

You may as well ask a blind person to see.

Oliver James' book "They f you up"
www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0747584788

Isn't especially about narcissism, but general family issues, and if you read it all you'll get to the bit where after reading about all the ways that parents mess up their children, he explains that it was because of their own childhood. The parents are also victims. This is particularly true of narcissism. If you insist on having the conversation, she may open up to talking about her own childhood having been less than perfect. Take it at her pace over weeks and months. Introduce ideas gently. However do you really want to point out to someone in their later years that the catalogue of stories they've built up over the years may be seen differently by others, that they are the architect of their own demise and that only extensive therapy can help? Narcissistic tendencies often coexist with depression in later life.

Be sure what your aim is, and how you'll cope with the aftermath. If your mum rails initially then has a little self-insight days or weeks later, will you be there to help? If she had no self-insight she'll feel genuinely under attack. Can you imagine that? We have all been less than perfect. Imagine your mum and sister having an intervention and describing at length the mistakes you've made, how it's your fault and how you need to change. Would you feel under attack? Do you think it would help?

Don't just drop the bomb and run.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0747584788

Why isn't the box checked by default? !

Given that a big talk might not be the way forward, does anyone have any other suggestions/advice?

I'd echo shoom if you want to try to get her to open up.

Other than getting her to open it, it might be more trying to make life bearable for yourselves. If that's the case, then try it gently. "please don't say/do that Mum" ... "ok, Mum I really don't like it when you say/do that, I'll say goodbye for now and come back next week" (said very calmly and good temperedly). Depending on, well, how far gone she is she might respond to that. But try it with only one or two outstanding things at first. And if you do that, tell your sister you've done it.

When you're dealing with someone who is that difficult / narcissistic, people have got to be a team and communicate really well.

Yes, it resulted in her throwing me and her grandchildren out of her house and her cutting me out of her life (except when it suits her) Waste of time but for one thing: I was finally able to accept she was never going to be what I'd hoped for all these years - that was a pretty freeing revelation.

I think I know what triggered it with my mother too.

In her late teens, she was involved in a very serious accident; she spent a few years in and out of hospital and it resulted in a permanent disability. During that time she was the centre of everyone's attention and focus. My grandma often talked about how she and my grandad walked on eggshells around her because her temper could be so wild if she was upset. Understandably, she was very frustrated and very restricted and could see her friends having their teenage lives around her. And obviously her parents bent over backwards to help her, the nursing staff were very empathetic. It was almost as though her emotional development stopped at that stage and she was never quite able to stop being that angry, frustrated girl. She was very egocentric and could only understand anything or anyone else's situation insofar and as much as it affected her.

Even as a 60+ year old she wasn't able to see the that she had lived, or that her face wasn't affected (shallow, but then she was/is very focused on looks and being attractive), or that she'd still been able to have children, or that she hadn't suffered neurological damage or that her disability could have been a hell of a lot worse, or anything. There was no silver lining for her to focus on. And when she was no longer the same centre of everyone's attention, she became angry about that.

She seemed to resent my brother and, especially, me for having the lives she had given us and not having had them taken from us (like she had). I've posted before that she said to me in my 20s that she wished we'd been born disabled because then we'd have been deserving of her love. I think it was down to the fact she thought people would pity her, and rally around her and give her attention again had she had disabled children.

I think, basically, she has spent her whole life trying to regain the attention she had when she was younger and in hospital. And resenting other people for not giving it to her. When other people got attention, or she thought someone was giving them attention, she tried to take it for herself. She had to be the centre of everything. My stbxh and I had a very small wedding (largely down to her) and invited no one. Because of this she always refused to acknowledge him as her son in law and stopped referring to him as daddy/dad to the children, instead using his first name in an effort to punish us. No one else was bothered!

I cannot imagine the joy she would feel at knowing my marriage had broken down. My dad died last year and she wasn't told about it at the time because we didn't want her at the funeral. A piece of correspondence pertaining to this was sent to her house instead of my brother's. For some reason she passed it on to me (well I suppose it was for maximum impact) and wrote on the envelope 'Please pass this onto your brother, I think it has something to do with the fact your dad is dead'. When I read it, I could almost feel the frisson of excitement she would have felt at writing that.

I tried the 'talk'. It didn't work. I'm not sure 'D'M is narcissistic, she's certainly difficult.

I like FolkGirl's image of the shiny superhero/villain outfit - everything I said to her pinged straight off for one reason or another. There was one moment when I thought I'd got through to her about something but in the next breath she blamed dad instead.

I gave up in the end and stopped talking and sat there crying in despair. Sh considered the conversation closed and started making small talk. I had not made the slightest impact on her.

Omg Folk that's v interesting!

My dm was tolerated by her own mother, but largely forgotten, the other 2 were favoured. She left home when she got married, and went NC for the greater part of 30yrs. Hating her dsis, resenting perhaps. From what I can see, her sis is a nice, caring and loving mother.

Months after dm got married, she fell ill, seriously so, a disease synonymous with death in the past, less so then/now realistically, but perception was still very much that she could die. She was ill for 2 years and all the time they didn't know what it was. She was troubled with her health our entire childhood, but gradually improving.

Maybe that attention was it! She resented the attention I got as a baby, from others, from my dad. She 'enjoyed' the attention she got but resented it going.

Maybe that is it.

It was actually my grandma that made that connection. She used to say sometimes, "I don't know where your mother came from. I really don't. She's nothing like the rest of us".

And she really wasn't.

Mind you, my GM (DM mum) regularly favoured her DD's DC over her other GC, blatantly so. Huge easter eggs for her DGS, but much smaller ones for her DGD.

I bet if DM had have had contact with GM we children would have been either way down the bottom of the list, or way up the top, to somehow 'get' to our dm.

By the looks of it, my dm was very like her mother.

My mum was always hysterical at any mention of her antics. She has virtually no friends left fallen out with all siblings and now only sees 3 out 4 of her children. And still she thinks its everyone else and keeps going with the attitude and self pity. I wrote to her and laid it all out really nicely and said its not too late to put this right etc etc and she went nuts and never spoke to me again (2 yrs ago) I was her last friend really I kept my mouth shut and made emdless excuses for her. Everyone I know well inc family approached me over the years and asked me to speak to her Every time I said no as I knew where it would end. Finally I spoke up for my own sake and she cut me dead. These people are so self obsessed they just can't think outside of themselves and once they lose control of you they have no further desire to see you.

Mm it's interesting isn't it, Hissy.

My mother was a much doted on only child.

But my grandad did have the sort of job which, at that time particularly, meant that he was respected pillar of the community. She used to talk a lot about how there were high expectations of her behaviour and she used to get told "what will people think if they found an X's daughter has....".

They moved around a lot because of his job and I suspect my mother was quite lonely at times as a child.

And then the accident meant she got the attention she craved and she couldn't cope when she returned to real life. By then, she was an adult and married my dad shortly after but in her head, she was still a little girl who didn't get the attention she wanted/needed from her parents.

I just don't understand why she didn't have the insight to recognise this, ever. And why she wanted to create such sadness and misery in her own children. My childhood was actively abusive. And more than that, most of the time she seemed to really enjoy it.

I'm sure I'll fuck them up in some other way but I know that I love my children, and they know I love them too and I never do anything to deliberately cause them anguish. Ever.

Mermaid IMpersonalE and from reading threads on here, going no contact is the only thing that really works. Simply because it removes it from your life.

I had no idea how much I had been weighed down by her, and how much of a negative impact she was having on my life.

When I think of all those years I wasted trying to get through to her and

I wanted to cut her out when my son was younger but my grandma always persuaded me otherwise, although there were lengthy periods of NC during that time.

My grandma died a year before I cut her out completely. I'm glad my grandma wasn't around to see it. She wouldn't have understood. I couldn't have told her (the legal reasons thing) and it would have caused huge problems, so I do 'get' that side of it.

Ultimately, this is your life and you only get one. How much of an impact is it having?

Folk that is interesting My mother was also an adored child. Yet she has made life hell for us and as you say takes some enjoyment from it which is rubbing salt in the wounds.

I did years ago. I got the much expected histrionics " you have given me a migraine I have to lie down". We did everything for you your childhood was wonderful you were spoilt. You are a failure that's why you blame me. It was just so predictable.

I just keep contact light hearted and about DD who she is a different person with.
It's unlikely they will have any insight.

Trying to make a narc see life from any other point of view than their own is like nailing jelly to a tree - difficult and ultimately pointless.

I speak, as others have here, from bitter experience.

Like all others I would not go there.

I got first of all denial of anything that happened, was said etc. then my father joined in (the enabler) "how could you say all this after everything she's done for you?" "Everything she does, she does out of love."

Then you get rage and the partner ignoring it - in my case, violence against things and me.

Then you get revenge. Spreading rumors to friends and family, contacting my ex boyfriends, coming on to my husband.

Waste of time. Learning to effectively disengage would be a better use of your time. I have actually tried to do this. Got stonewalled. Woe is me. Turned on - "what do you want from me?" (Presumably so Zi could list demands which could be used against me in future). And in the end nothing changed.

I can't change her. I can only change how I let it affect me.

I don't know if my dm is a narcissist. We (my siblings and I) have thought it was maybe a personality disorder in the past. But the kind of behaviour you are mentioning and in particular the falling out with everybody and anybody is very apparent with her.

One of my siblings did have a talk with her but did it from the point of view, where has are lovely dm gone, you really aren't yourself. To be honest she's always been dreadful and worse since my df died, but it seemed a good way to approach it. She agreed to see the GP and get antidepressants which has made a considerable difference.

She still has no concept of what's rude and hurtful and what isn't when speaking to people though and has no conscience at all if she's upset somebody or ruined a day out/event. I don't think she'll ever change in that respect. But she is less argumentative and less prone to droning on in a negative way about everyone she's come into contact with. She had a very difficult childhood herself which is probably the thing that stops me going NC.

I think it's an ongoing process for us though really. You just have to nip it in the bud before it develops. She'll start on my hair, or my weight or want to run through her version of a recent argument she's had - and I just say now "I don't want to hear it" and cut her dead. That seems to work. I find being in her company very stressful though and the more she alienates other people, the more she wants to see us.

These have all been so helpful. Thank you so much. It ready seems like sitting my mum down and having this full and frank discussion is not at all a good idea. I will show this thread to my sister and see what she thinks, but having read all the contributions and thought about them all I think I would prefer not to do this.

However, we do need to do something. We feel that the future for our relationship with our mother looks bleak. I am also very concerned for her as she moves into her old age. My dad is dead(although they divorced before he died), she is estranged from all of her close family and she is falling out with her friends and neighbours. Those who are in contact with her, appear to be limiting it and/ or "diluting" her company by inviting others to join them, which she really doesn't Iike.

I think the idea of picking a few things, focusing on these and then gently but relentlessly picking her up on them would work. I am very confident about my sister and I working as a team and communicate with each other.

Has anyone else adopted this or a similar strategy with any kind of success?

I have also noted how many people now have no contact and how positive you are about it. I don't feel like I am arc this stage yet and would like to try other things just now.

Folk girl, thanks for all your detailed input. To answer your question, at this particular moment in time I find her behaviour completely managable. However, thiS can change and there are times when she really upsets me, unsettles me and is generally intolerable. The most recent incident was a few weeks before Chrismas when she had an unbelievable reaction to an unavoidable change in the arrangements for Christmas Day.

I've altered my relationship with my mum. I wouldn't say it's 'better', but it is far less fraught & more manageable. Most of it, tbh, is down to a change in my attitude & expectations; she has had a few 'aha' moments, to her credit, but the main thing is that I've accepted and understood I never will have the mummy I (still) want, while she believes she is that mother.

No idea whether she'd be diagnosed, but she is odd enough that other people notice. She's somewhere between narcissistic and histrionic.

I did the talks over several weeks. They were tough. I had to learn when to back off, and how to raise issues compassionately. I also set very strong boundaries - no popping round unannounced, no amazingly crap gifts, and so on - with much strong hand-holding and good advice from this forum.

I'm glad I did it. She's old now and getting very frail. I feel we have a functional relationship, so am more at peace with the thought of her death. Should she need care, I will defend her rights but not nurse her. She knows this.

Mum isn't malicious as some are, though. Some parents are so dangerous that contact should be avoided.

I had 'talks' with my psychopathic dad in the years before he considerately died. That, too, was more for my sense of independence than any hopes of a better relationship (relationships with my dad were invariably harmful.) Bizarrely, he seemed to respect my approach and made me something of a confidante - the only benefit I got from that was detailed insight into the mind of a psychopath!

I'd say go for it, if you want to, but keep a firmly honest check on your expectations and make sure you have support.

"gently but relentlessly" - Yes! That's a great description!