Struggling with DS reminding me of my abusive exH

[PerkyPenguin]

I feel guilty writing this or admitting my feelings to anyone.
My exH was abusive to me and my DC sadly, both emotionally and physically. I was too afraid to leave, even tried to desperately save the marriage when it was falling apart. This was over 10 years ago now.
But finally, his very long affair became known to me and eventually he left (unannounced and leaving me with barely any money). Contact with the children went on but once I pulled myself together and realised the abuse they were experiencing, after a court trial contact was stopped. Both DC have struggled with this in their own ways, they saw counsellors and got a lot of help. But 10 years on they have both been at uni and doing very well. Most importantly they, on the whole, happy.

The last few months I have noticed DS' behaviour, his mannerisms and personality is exactly the same as his fathers. It is very difficult to see but I know I should see him as his own person and try not to associate it with the awful things my ex did and way he behaved.
The big difficulty is DS is starting to act like his father in almost everything he does (but the more negative traits come out more during special occasions). He has a very strange (and nasty) attitude toward woman. This has not come from me or DD, and he has not been around his father for 10 years.
He is incredibly sexist, even towards his sister. I have tried both gently and firmly numerous times to explain how wrong his behaviour is and how I will not accept it or allow him to treat woman under my roof the way he does. He is 23 and my influence is sadly fading.
It is other little things like avoiding helping whatsoever around the house and being short or awkward with me. He makes no effort to keep in touch with his sister when she is at uni despite her regularly making the effort with him and desperately reaching out to him (he lives at home as uni is local). He can be rude when we have visitors and be short with them.

Today things escalated, we had a lovely day and I tried to ignore DS' behaviour although it was horrendous. He barely thanked me for his presents and made it clear he disliked some, he never jumped up or offered to help clear away or make food etc. After lunch he disappeared to his bedroom, when I went up he was on his laptop, and he grunted when I asked him if he would come and help dry the dishes and then play a board game with everyone. I asked if he was OK, he said Yes as if I was mad for asking and annoying him. I was embarrassed and so angry but due to it being xmas day just left him and held in my rage. All this behaviour is incredibly similar to the things my exH would do and the way he would speak to me/act.
I really struggled, and so did DD, I found her crying this evening about him. She just said he has suddenly become this horrible person in the last year or two and she wishes the old brother would come back. Holidays in the summer have become painful and so difficult. He is not the DS I brought him up to be and tried so hard to instill good values in. I flick between trying desperately not to loose him and to help him change his behaviour to wondering what an earth I have done wrong and really struggling to deal with him being around me. I have spoken to him numerous times about it (I have NOT mentioned to him the link to his father's behaviour which makes it even more difficult for me)
I am at my wits end and feeling incredibly upset about it.

Do you think that maybe a little more counselling would help. Maybe as your ds has got older he is struggling to come to terms with his fathers behaviour and is lashing out at the moment. It is not as light on your up bringing of him, you have done a fantastic job, please don't be so hard on yourself.
You probably feel helpless that he is being this way, but he is now a grown adult who should see how this is affecting you and his sister.

Thanks for replying and being so kind.
I breeched counselling with DS but he is not a 'talker' and said he doesn't see why he needs it.
I have explained endlessly and time after time how difficult it is and that the behviour is unacceptable. That if he is struggling with the past, we are here and want to help him. He just denies anything is wrong, says he will change or is sorry (but in a going through the motions kind of way). He acts as it he thinks the problem is me being unnecessarily moody and demanding of him.

I think it's time he moved out and lived independently. Is that possible?

I agree with Bongo, I think your DS would benefit from some counseling, preferably from a male counsellor.

Perky it sounds like he is replicating your Ex's version of being a man. You say you have spoken to him about his attitude, how did those conversations go?

Do you think he might secretly be in touch with his father?

sparkly he is a medical student so financially it is very tricky for him. That is the next step and not long off. During term time it is far easier as I work full time and he is at uni/hospital full time. It is the holidays when things get tough.
diane he is reluctant to engage in any conversations about it. If I tell him how difficult I am finding his attitude and the way he is treating his family, he just apologises, acts as if he was unaware (or not in the wrong) and basically avoids engaging in any discussion about it. He just tries to shake it off, doesn't defend himself but doesn't recognise really what I am talking about. He will then be nicer for a day and then the old behaviour creeps back.

I must add, this behaviour flicks with being lovely, caring and protective. Hence why I 'give in' or tell myself to stop being so silly. It really is like a switch between two different sons. Sadly the not so nice son has been much more prevalent recently though.

sapfu he spoke to his father aged 18 on and off but he ended the contact as it became difficult. He could technically be back in touch though and I could imagine wouldn't tell me about it if he was.

I think your DS will not feel the need to change unless there are adverse consequences to his behaviour. At the moment you and your DD are putting up with it. He needs some firm boundaries from you. If he is going to live with you then he needs to behave in a way acceptable to you and DD. Otherwise you have to make it plain you will not let him stay. He is an adult and you have no legal obligation to give him a home. This is not being unkind. It is the only way you can bring home to him that his selfish sexist behaviour is not welcome in your home.

Im the same with my Ds2. I divorced his father when he was 8 hes now 20. I raised him. Its frightening how like his father he is with his attitudes, mannerisms and opinions. He certainly didnt get any of them from me. I look at him and despair sometimes ( hes also the only one who actually looked like his dad and was his dads blue eyed boy ).

The only thing I hold on to is that he is a nicer person than his father was,He was raised in a very loving home ( after the divorce). He was nurtured encouraged and loved which his father wasnt. Im hoping those things have made a difference in him and that even though he is a "clone" of his dad,there is some fundamental differences and he wont end up abusive

I feel your pain

you know what, my brother was raised in family with two parents and very much with a strong female role model at the head of the house and he can be a bit like this too. He doesn't get away with it but it doesn't mean that its not there at times when he is tired etc. I don't doubt there are other elements to this as well for you and your son but to a certain extent it could just be an immature 23 year old boy who is pushing the boundaries at home when in years gone by he would probably have been long moved out by now. If its just you and him now there could be a bit of 'little emperor' syndrome happening

Goodness OP, you could be talking about my 15yo Ds mostly! he hasn't had contact with his father for more than 12 years, but his mannerisms and ways are my ex to a T. I strongly believe in nature over nurture.

I am sorry to hear that you are going through this.
It must be really hard for you.

Do you think some of this might be down to his studying medicine? I take it he's an FY1 or 2? If so he's just reached the stage where people are asking him things and regularly relying on his expertise for the first time. Has his head swelled a bit? Very often with this kind of thing, someone more senior will take them aside, have a stern word and it all becomes a lot easier. I hope this is the case for you.

Could he be anxious about succeeding in his choice of course and career and stress is making him lash out in the only way he has seen demonstrated. Perhaps he is worried about failing, looking foolish, letting you down. I assume medicine is a very demanding degree.

I suspect genetics play a lot on how people behave.
He could have inherited a lot of what caused his father to be abusive. :(

Sometimes I see some traits of exH in DS and worry about what you are facing now.
He is a lovely boy, but still...

Not sure I can advise on what to do, but I think you need to be prepared to take the action you'd recommend to a woman with an abusive man. He should face consequences if he's not prepared to treat the women in his life with respect. Now is the time, not when it's too late.

It sounds like time for some tough love.

Maybe you should lay down some house 'rules of behaviour'. You can agree these with him (yes - like he's 10), and have clear consequences if he breaks them repeatedly (ie he moves out).

Make sure you put some things in there that are in his favour ie you leave him alone on certain days/weeks when his uni work is most demanding but he pulls his weight at other times (like holidays). And treating everyone with respect should be rule #1.

Is it possible he could be depressed?

I don't usually post in relationships but have four sons aged 21 to 27..... Plus others.
They are all different and Christmas sometimes brings out the worst behaviour in them. I recognise the feeling that things are doable in term time and then it all goes pear shaped!
One of mine is an avowed feminist and one a misogynist. The misogynist is often told the error of his views but is more likely to wash up or play a board game than the other one.
I think you have to separate the strands of:
1/ totally unacceptable behaviour.
2/ laziness which can afflict anyone
3/ just things that 95% of males would do. I would include going to their room on the laptop (to get a bit of peace) and not texting their sister. Mine are all no contact unless necessary.
The problem is that he has obviously inherited the personality of your ex. You are super sensitised to his behaviour and may not be able to tease out these threads.
He is not in a relationship with you or your daughter. You need to let some stuff go and clamp down hard on others.
It would be better for you all if he moved out, preferably into a shared mixed house where he had to live up to the standards of others.
Don't be afraid to do this.he will more than likely get an emergency loan from the university to finish his studies and ultimately have more respect for you.
Tough love does work.

Thank you for the replies. It is comforting to hear of others in the same position.
My reasons for not taking an ultra firm/ tough love approach is that he has been vulnerable in the past and is the type who would become depressed very easily. He himself knows how wrong his father's treatment both of me and of DS himself was. He was a victim of abuse which makes this very tricky. I know many adult children of abuse who develop depression or other disorders due to the fear of growing up to become like their abusive father. I do not want him to feel that way. Equally, I do not want him to grow up acting the way he is.

7to25 I separate out typical man behaviour (although IMO there is only a certain level of 'man behaviour' that should be tolerated having been through a marriage where behaviour which evolved from 'man behaviour' to plain abusive/antisocial/rude) from what is just unacceptable. What I struggle with is how to address the unacceptable behaviour because of the ties to his father. While he is not in a relationship with me or my DD, I am his mother and have worked so hard to bring him up a decent man who knows how to treat woman. He has never had a girlfriend to date.

With regards to the medicine... yes it is demanding and takes a lot of time and energy. He is not yet F1 year but still drowning under a workload. During the term I expect him to be tired and busy and stressed, I support him as best I can. I do, however, expect him to pull his weight and to treat his family well. We have had difficulties in the past with him being quite big headed and self-important due to nearly being a doctor. Obviously I am incredibly proud of him for being so successful but I m equally as proud as my DD for her achievements and career path and will not allow either to see themselves or be seen as superior.
With regards to moving out, I cannot see that he has anyone to move in with. He has old school friends but he does not have uni friends at all. He can really struggle socially. All his school friends are a bit oxbridge type/very academic but perhaps lacking in the social skills.

I don't mean to be so down on him. He really can be the complete opposite of how I describe him at times. As I said, this is what makes it so tricky. Today he is studying, being polite and no bother. I know Christmas day is difficult and stressful but it brought out this horrible character in him, and almost haunts me how much he was like my ex.
Thanks again for all your words of wisdom. I am building up to speaking to him about it but have no idea how to approach it.

" I have worked so hard to bring him up a decent man"
So do 95% of women with sons but it doesn't always work out. Nature and nurture are at play as well as the influence of others and your ex left when they were older children. It annoys me how people blame their MILs for the shortcomings of their husbands! I can feel the pain in your posts but that won't change your son at 23. All you can do is set house rules with the threat of exclusion, or cutting him off financially.
You say that he has had no girlfriend, this is a bit unusual but only that. You also say that he has NO university friends. If this is true, this is worthy of comment as medics usually stick together and that helps them all through the initial years. He will really struggle if he is as antisocial as you describe. At 23 he should have had at least one year of living away from home, even if funded by loans or a holiday job. These things knock the corners off adolescent boys.
My youngest has worked in Macdonalds during university and it has been the making of him.
Good luck. Maybe have a think before you talk. Is he finding the social aspects
You do not have to like your son.
You obviously love him.

Either you practice tough love or the first girl he really falls in love with will break his heart.

No young woman worth her salt will put up with being treated like that for long.

I don't have a grown up son but this sounds like my 19 year old cousin. He is under academic pressure and sometimes I think his bad behaviour is just a way of working off stress. Obviously it's unpleasant for those living with him (and I think he wants us to feel the same level of unhappiness as he does).

His father is a nice bloke but can have grumpy days. Then he and cousin are very similar because their mannerisms and voices are the same. What I'm trying to say (badly) is that I'm not sure how much if your ds' behaviour is 'typical' grumpy, stressed young man (albeit with mannerisms unsettlingly similar to his father's) and how much is him 'taking after his father'. Could he be copying a memory of his fathers behaviour in order to make you feel as unhappy as he does?

I breeched counselling with DS but he is not a 'talker' and said he doesn't see why he needs it

Erm, you need it son because you are starting to behave like a *insert word of your choice.

Thanks. I do know that you are all right, it is hard to hear- but true I know.
He has lived away for two years (first two years of uni). He goes to a uni where the med school does not mix with the rest of the uni (different site and accommodation) and there are a high number who live at home. I recognise though that socially he struggles and this is a contributing factor too.
I only hesitate because I fear there may be some underlying depression/reason for his behaviour, but I do not know. He is a huge bottler and I never really know how he feels. He struggles with expressing emotions. It is easy to say tough love will do wonders, but when it is your DS and someone you care about, it is very difficult.

Boys look up to their dads as hero's and role models,but sadly your ds has not had this from his dad. And this is maybe what has really hurt him deep down and he is unable to cope or vent out his feelings. To him his dad has let him down, betrayed his feelings and trust and he could be finding it tough to deal with.
The most important thing you can do is love him like you have been. He is going through a difficult patch but has been brought up by a mother that has given him the right tools in being a gentleman and stability. Ask him one day " you have a sister, would you like it if she was treated this way by her partner?" Shock him into realising that his behaviour is not acceptable.

Echocave I do know some is just typical man, the issue with fact it is like his father is more that for me emotionally it makes it incredibly hard. My ex's behaviour began similar to DS' but evolved suddenly to abusive. I occasionally see glimpses of the not so typical behaviour emerging which is what worries me.