"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheBaubles]

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It's December 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013
August 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)<br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a><br />
<br />
This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: <br />
<br />
"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."<br />
<br />
Happy Posting

[ChristmasSprite]

you were vulnerable possibly, but many women that have never experienced DV in their lives have no idea whats hit them when it does and suffer terribly too. Thats DV - its not particular. The DV stays firmly at the heart of the abuser.

you absolutely must bleat

[ChristmasSprite]

seek all your comforts now for some peace with your weary soul for tonight. Warmth and soothes for your sleep ((hugs)) x

[MummyBeerestCupOfCheerest]

Reading more of these posts make me so disheartened. I remember thinking that dysfunctional families must be typical, as I couldn't imagine family life any other way. How sad that so many others experience the same, if not worse.

And we blame ourselves for it

Nothing helpful to add or advise unfortunately. Just that I hope everyone is well and doing their best to muddle through the holidays.

We're staying in tomorrow, just me, DH & DD. I can't wait.

[Bedtime1]

Hi all thanks for your kinds words.

Sorry that you have and to go through all this Hissy. Hope you are recovering now.

Milly- so much of what you say sounds like how I feel too and I identify with so much of it. I am in a similar position. I don't have many friends and the ones I do have are not close/ good ones. I feel alone. I just will feel so relieved when the 25th arrives. I'm so anxious right now. The pressure feels very strong.
I keep getting messages nearly daily from my mother about Xmas and presents. Wether we want to go out with them.
She was out with my young sister the other day and got the sister to ring whilst she was stood next to her and My sister said she's in a designer shop and was wondering wether I wanted one of these lovely bags. These bags start at £100 + . They did the same thing with my older sister too. I turned it down. I mean the bag sounded really nice, anyway I'd told her though numerous times I don't want gifts before this call about the bag. I said to young sister it was thoughtful but mum knew why I didn't want gifts this year. I said thank you but I am okay. ( mums trying I think to make me look bad to sister and look spoilt etc) . She then just said ok then bye and put the phone down. It really upset me. When I discussed it with husband he said why did she need to ring to ask you wether you wanted the bag and get your sister to do it. He's right if your getting a gift wouldn't you just buy it.

I'm still in the trying to do everything I can stage as obviously I don't want to be alone with no family. So I'm trying to make her see why I feel this way. And she keeps asking me what she's done. When I try and explain some of it she just says your dad and I loved you very much and I just can't understand what we have done. I say again and she says know we loved you very much and she would never do anything intentional to hurt me and she's sorry if I feel hurt but she's done nothing wrong. It's those sentiments really from her. Denys it all . Then gets nasty if I write more detail about what she's done said .

We just go round in circles and don't get anywhere then she gets nasty eventually then I retaliate and that's it. Then we go over it again the next day and same thing again. Then she says she doesn't know what to do. So it's just not going anywhere is it? . I've tried and tried basically to get her to see and to basically say I want it to stop. But she acts oblivious to it all. Im struggling to walk away. I'm on a hamster wheel. Do you get that finding it hard to stop trying to make them see? I mean I've endured a lot over years.

[Bedtime1]

I just wonder what is going to happen in the future really as I can't tolerate her behaviour anymore. I don't feel like meeting her right now and I can't just meet because it's Christmas ( pressures on) and I don't feel like giving gifts to someone who has been like this and I have done for years but not felt like it. Should I give a token gift? Will that make me feel better or in the long run worse or not give anything and feel rubbish but then feel better in the future? What do you all think? My willpower to stay strong is waining particularly as it gets nearer.

Also I'm in limbo as what will I do with my young sisters gifts? I can't see her if I don't see mum. Also I've rang sister a few times to ask if we could meet up to give her my gifts and she has blanked my calls and messages. Should I still give them? Ahhh. It's so stressful. The way things were set up and encouraged in my family was that I was like a mother figure to younger one and I felt responsible for her and my family. Therefore she was always the important one. I obviously love her and always spoilt her to the point of giving lots of gifts. When looking at it now perhaps it was way over the top. But sister is a good tool for my mother to use when she sees fit. Bargain with etc. I still feel the need to give lots of gifts to younger sister even though she treats me really badly and is 19. You see I think sister is playing on this now as I think she probably feels like she is the one Who is used as a pawn with mum and because I genuinely love her and mums causing trouble in our relationship she gets away with treating me badly. Do you think I should treat her same way as mum if she's not nice. Thing is I then go to feeling sorry for her because she's caught in mums games and doesn't realise that she's the tool being played by mum to get to me and My other sister when she feels like it and when we aren't doing what she wants. Also then mum goes to being jealous if sister gets to close to us so causes bothe then too .

I shouldn't say this but I hate her a bit for ruining the relationship between my sister and me. The manipulations and lies, as I was like a mum to her and now there's nothing. Nothing at all. She just disrespects me, rude, plays mums games with her and uses same bullying ways as my mum. You never know where you are with mum or sister.
I just think she's brought her up very badly and she displays such a bad attitude it's Unbelievable . She's a mini mum.
What do you all think? What would you do with gifts. I've spent a fortune on sister too. Thanks and hope everyone else is holding up under the strain.

[Hissy]

Bedtime, all this will keep repeating until something changes.

They are not going to change, so you have to change the way you deal with it.

Stop looking for them to assume responsibility, they won't.

Give up, let go, detach.

You aren't alone, you have your H and your dc.

Make the decision for yourself. What kind of christmas do you want?

[Hissy]

As much as i've championed Truth as the thing to cling to, to 'save' us, I struggle with the validation of this.

I realise and see the truth, when I allow my memories to drop the Fucked Up Family filter, but if they don't admit it, and effectively gaslight us, it's bloody hard to maintain that path.

Counselling helps, as it's a poor bugger that can't get away cos you're paying him to sit there someone to hear you, but is it enough?

This is where I struggle. Making the healing 'real'.

[Hissy]

Has anyone here done this? Do they have the 'fake it till you make it' mantra that can be aimed for?

[Meerka]

hissy sorry I didnt answer again last night. I found yoru posts quite moving and could not think of the right words. I hope you slept deeply and well.

"fake it til you make it" - well, it seems to work for a lot of people. It doesnt for me though. I found I had to step backwards and expect less of myself, and push myself less. Give myself time.

it's not the most successful of ways, perhaps, because there are still things I can't do. But I found faking it just did not work for me. The strain of faking it got worse and worse until in the end I would come home and cry and cry and start not going out. Just couldnt do it. Being gentler and allowing myself to be myself, unhappiness and all, + intensive counselling and only pushing myself / faking it when I felt I had the reserves to do so, worked better.

Like i say, seems to work well for others though.

[Hissy]

Yes, meerka good point. The 'fake it' idea is indistinguishable from the 'tis only a flesh wound, i'll limp on' mentality isn't it? That's perhaps why it's not working.

CBT (which is in effect the faking it bit) is helpful to overcome immediate panic, but no good long term for "sorting this shit out"

I'm impatient with myself, but that's me denying myself the sympathy space again, the space I was never allowed.

Hmm. I think i'd better make a list of things I want to address at therapy tomorrow.

Also...
Étiquette: does one give christmas cards to one's therapist?

[Meerka]

If you like them, Yes, why not? :)

I wonder if 'faking it' works when you're at a certain stage? No idea of the answer!

[pumpkinsweetie]

Not a good sign here, hope i'm wrong.
Woken up to a miserable dh, and went to check his phone like i normally do when he is like this and he has put a password on it

I have a bad feeling they are/have pulled him in as he was up a few hours before me. When he got up he was happy, his behaviour has now changed and i'm now being snapped at

[bunchoffives]

Hissy your posts are very poignant and I do think I understand where you are coming from.

I don't know how you heal, but one thing I do know is that if you are happy and have other people in your life to nurture you then it is much easier to switch your focus. I'm not suggesting (I hope) that you deny what you are feeling or try to minimise your memories, but that you choose to shift your focus on to you and your life now.

I read about FLEAS the other day on here and it was certainly a real lightbulb moment for me. I think we internalise the assumption that they and all their crap are the most important thing. As a result we worry at it all, and worry at it all, and feel we have to keep thinking about it, analysing it to try to solve it and sort it out. But it can't be sorted out, understood, solved. It's in the past and can't be undone. But that is the very thing that is our salvation. It is in the past. We can let go. Accept ourselves as we are now. Cherish ourselves. Listen to ourselves. Love ourselves. And when that inner torment starts up again, when we torture ourselves with memory and hurt, we can give a firm 'no' to allowing it to dominate our present lives. Stop repeating the abusive scripts that we have turned in onto ourselves. Leave it behind and move on to a better day. One day at a time.

Hope today is carefree, lighter and looking forward to a peaceful day today.

[Hissy]

Sit him down and reassure him that nothing bad will happen if he talks to you.

Remind him that this happens every year, and he can stop feeling like this.

[Hissy]

Failing that Pumpkin drop his phone down the loo.

Thanks bunchofives :)
Shifting the focus might be it. Although i'm still worried that'd lead me to minimising/denying it to myself.

Guess there's a fine line here, allowing myself to know what happened, but not taking personal responsibility for it.

Atm, it feels like that means I write them all off, and i'm still sad that I have to do this. I still don't believe it's turned out like this.

I say again; this was not the life I ever imagined.

Next year i'm going to focus exclusively on getting myself healthy, happy and functioning. I'll see if I can tackle the woeful state of my personal fitness. (better than it was, but that included muscle wastage due to practical incarceration by exP)

I'm so unfit i'll need a personal trainer to start me off for the first month or so, as I don't want to risk serious injury. I tried jogging over a year ago and getting my knees back has taken all the remaining time!

I just filled in the DV police form. Sadly totally irrelevant. I need to speak to my contacts and see what can be done about changing this. It's allowing people to be terrorised with impunity.

[Meerka]

Hissy, a year ago I started to try to get fit. Was also in a woeful state. I found swimming fantastic - easy on the joints and you can do as much or little as you like. Over about 8 months I went from doing like .. 8 lengths in a 25m pool slowly to doing 35.

[bunchoffives]

Guess there's a fine line here, allowing myself to know what happened, but not taking personal responsibility for it.

That's one of the things I personally find hardest I think because there is no rational explanation for their mo, the next logical assumption is that that they are as they are, they do as they do in reaction to you. And that's when you can get engulfed with examining everything over and over.

Atm, it feels like that means I write them all off, and i'm still sad that I have to do this. I still don't believe it's turned out like this.

This also really resonates. I've been nc with F for 11 years and as a result a few other family members have gone west too. I can't really believe that this is what it's come to. I hanging on by a thread to some others atm too It is a kind of bereavement and grief. And harder at this time of year.

re the knees, start with walking? (I'm also full of good intentions for a fit 2014! With about 5st to lose it's a challenge!)

[pumpkinsweetie]

Finally spoke to dh, there is nothing on the phone, thank god! Think he is having an off day. Good idea about the loo Hissy

Re: Getting fit, i could do with doing that when baby is here. Hopefully by then there will be less of this nonsense after a good few weeks when things die down! Pil will only want to know once baby girl tinnie tiny, the harrassment over seeing her will last all of 2 weeks i reckon & of course it being their 9th grand girl i'm hoping they'll be disinterested considering the 1st dislike of sils child because she weren't a boy!

Considering how badly they treat the only boy in their family (dh) i have never got why they are intent on one day getting a grandson!

It really helps reading everyones posts as it highlights what dh may be feeling at the moment. Because i find it really hard to understand why he feels so guilty, trapped & scared as i'm viewing it from my pov, rather than actually being a child of such toxic dysfunction.

[Hissy]

Pumpkin, you are in effect the odd one out, in that you are not the child of the dysfunctional, you are the DIL! If he genuinely hasn't got a message/call or something and it really IS just him having an off day, then it's likely to be the guilt building up.

why did he lock the phone? why is he not allowing you (who has immunity to these poisonous people) to help him by filtering it?

oh yes and do be careful that you don't give his phone to your child to play with when in the loo...

[Hissy]

Can you all get out for a walk (waddle) change of scene, phones at home, peace and quiet reigns and all that?

[Bedtime1]

Hi hissy - thanks. I don't have children at the moment but I want children. Id love a child but I'm scared. I would love to start trying next year.

It's so hard letting go. My sister who lives with mum has messages me. She was nice lastnight then sent one today saying "are you not going to make up wth your mum at Christmas " she said "you are so stubborn" argh stubborn really? Am I stubborn? It really does annoy me.

[Bedtime1]

That hurts coming from my sister who I really have run round after her. And done all sorts that I wasn't happy with in order to still have a relationship with like most of it has been putting up with mum for her, then she is so cruel.

[Bedtime1]

She said I should make amends with mum which suggests she thinks it's all my fault things are the way they are.

[Hissy]

Bedtime, my kids comment was for Pumpkin, although I wasn't being clear, sorry

Your sis is partaking in triangulation; designed to wheedle you back into their clutches. My sis did it with the move, none of her business. you have your reasons and she is not a part of them... unless she WANTS you to make her the bad guy too.

Ignore, don't dance to their tunes, do your own thing and fuck the lot of them.

You would be better off without them. And they know it, which is why they are all panicking, trying to get you back on board.

[pumpkinsweetie]

Hissy is right Bedtime, your sister should not be getting involved!

Very interesting about triangulation, will have a good read up about that as i believe that is what sil1 did last year/beginning of this year. Needless to say she is now also in my bad books and i have had to cut her off along with all my nieces too. Very sad but it had to be done
There were also issues with the state of her children, i couldn't no longer see them in such a state: soiled clothing/ 13 year old still wetting bed, and wetting at my house too, 15yo bullied at school and my sil didn't even care to go up the school, the girls always smelt and looked unkempt, aswell as that the little one 4m at the time was left on my sofa & sil just laughed when she fell off

I think sil1 is just a chip off the old block like her parents, and i don't wish to know such a person!
The last time heard from her was when she sent her husband (bil) over to my home to moan how his children missed my dc and how i should make a visit