Selfish??

[hippoesque]

When I met my partner I was young and had no definite idea's about marriage, children etc.

I fell pregnant with unplanned DC whilst at uni and dropped out and we had a second planned DC a few years later.

So in the last 8 years we have had 2 children, bought 2 houses, survived extreme extended family bereavements and built a fairly nice little life together.

The problem is marriage. I have been ready for the last three years, he, I assume, is not. I've tried talking to him to find out if he wants to do it traditionally (proposal) or if we can just go ahead and do it seeing as we've done everything else. I'm getting nowhere!! I couldn't even tell you if it's a priority for him. He always fobs me off with vague allusions that he'll get round to it.
I can't help but think that if he doesn't want to do it now then he'll probably never want to.
Both of our children have his name and he has all the benefits of 'married life' so why rock the boat I guess?
Would I be selfish to wait until the NY and just start again on my own? He is fully aware that I'm at breaking point with this so it's not like I'm springing it on him. I just can't live with him for the rest of my life when he doesn't care that I'm so upset to be continually put off.
I didn't realise that it would be a deal breaker for me but equally he gave me no reason to believe that he was against marriage/marrying me/whatever the fuck his problem is.
Arghhhhh! Any opinions would be appreciated.

He should marry you!!!

Are you saying though,that if he doesn't, you are going to leave him in the new year?

I would say that I'm going to move into the spare room and take steps to leave. SAHM and all my savings went into the mortgage years ago. So I haven't got the financial backing to just swan off. In no way is he financially abusive it's just the decision we made when our second child came along.
I love him enough that if he had an epiphany and suddenly decided that he would like to marry me then that would be the best possible outcome. Equally I'm independent enough to start again on my own if he doesn't want to IYSWIM?

Because you have given him two beautiful children who are illegitimate, sorry to sound Victorian but in my book, if he aint gonna marry you after that, you're on a hiding to nowhere!

So its marriage or nothing? Maybe he doesn't think its such a big deal and I can't help but agree with that sentiment. What counts, surely, is the relationship - are you happy, are you compatible. If you are, then what difference will marriage make - I don't think it gives you any greater security, or any greater guarantee that the relationship will last.

But if it is really, really, really so important to you that you would rather leave and start up on your own unless you get it then at least be completely honest with him and say that you can't stay with him unless you are married. The danger with that, of course, is that if he's not particular keen on getting married he will feel blackmailed into it, and that kind of thing has a nasty habit of coming back and biting you on the arse!

I've never issued an ultimatum for precisely that reason. I just feel so torn! Our life is good, a tad boring if I was looking to nit pick but essentially nothing wrong. But anytime another one of our friends get engaged or we go to any sort of event I have to deal with being asked if we're planning on getting engaged/married. I always make jokes and excuses but it's horrendous because it physically hurts to think it'll never happen for us.

Would it not feel equally as crap that he is only marrying you because you threatened to leave him? Not very romantic that is it?

I also think splitting up what otherwise is a good family unit just because of this is wrong. Those two children will have a better life with their dad as part of it than with some new
Bloke pretending to be their dad and being shipped from house to house.

My son who is now an adult described this experience as never really having a home because he was never in one long enough to feel like it was his (we split 4/3). Me and his mum get on and did the split as best as we could but it has clearly still impacted on him. He also talks about never getting married himself as what's the point when most marriages end anyway......

I would think carefully about this one....

What does marriage mean to you? Why is this such an important, emotional issue?

(not criticising, just asking you to express what is really behind your need to be married)

OP, please don't be passive. You both decided to have your second child; your first was a surprise but surely not that unexpected?

I can understand you want marriage, I can understand that he doesn't. If he did, you'd be married by now. I think you'd be perfectly within your rights to start again if you wanted to but it takes time to set up new relationships and there's no guarantee that a new partner would want to marry either.

It's an awkward situation because you're basically putting your partner under duress to marry you and even if he does, how is that going to be satisfactory? It wouldn't be for me, I'd always know that it wasn't a mutual decision and that would rankle.

I'd say that your best option would be to sit down with your partner and really tell him how very unhappy you are about your relationship status and ask him to consider that. Make no ultimatums unless you have no problem either way with the outcome.

I think you misunderstood. Of course we both chose to have a second child but again that was a few years ago so not being passive at all.

Has he got some unexplored issues? The father of my children went to pieces at big family events - they were hugely traumatic for him due to past stuff. Also, my own relationship with my parents was so wobbly that I preferred not to marry than to have them anywhere near me on a day that was important to me. Maybe worth considering.

Sorry hippoesque, that 'passive' comment was really because of Jan45's post which followed your OP, apologies!

Why does he not want to marry or is it that he really does not want to marry YOU?. Are you really to him the "she will do for now" woman.

I think you need to talk more and properly establish why he has given you such vague allusions to marriage and what his opinion on marriage actually is; has he himself seen his parents split up or indeed many of his friends marriages break up?. He needs to be reminded that cohabitation separations can be just as painful and prolonged even though you are not married.

I sincerely hope he is not stringing you along on some vague promise of marriage in the dim and distant future.

Does he regard marriage as a "piece of paper"; some men (and women) do think of marriage as such. He may or may well not realise that your legal position as it currently stands is very poor indeed let alone the fact that if he was to die suddenly you could well end up destitute or purely relying on the kindness of his family to help you as a widow to two children. As it stands you could not choose a headstone for him, open Letters of Administration and even receive a widows allowance from the government purely because you are unmarried. You could be really up the creek both emotionally and financially without a paddle. In law you are currently regarded as two separate individuals and are treated as such.

If you feel you could leave him just because he doesn't want to marry you then your heart really can't be in it anyway. I don't understand why you want to if you feel like that. Probably as well if you do separate.

Why is marriage important for you? Do you know what are his views on marriage, ie something important, just a piece of paper?

IME, getting married when you have dcs is essential to protect yourself and your dcs (financially etc...) in case of divorce, bereavement etc... Esp as a SAHM.

So the question is, why do you think he is being evasive and not answering questions? Does he want to protect himself financially (eg house in his name only)? Does he want the possibility to just leave wo turning a glance back? Is he just against marriage or feeling so pressured to do it that he is just not doing it iyswim.

From your OP, the biggest issue for him is that he hasn't told you WHY he isn't getting married or even if he has an issue with marriage.

And THAT isn't good in a relationship, whatever the subject is.

i agree with maleview on this one - i think you need to be careful. Im not sure what you are looking for from being married that you dont have now other than not having to answer questions as to why your not engaged/married.

If someone gave me an ultimatum/put a gun to my head i would tell them to go fuck themselves - thats bullying because you are forcing me to do something i may not want to do. i can imagine if a man came on here and said my GF wont marry me im going to leave if she doesnt he would get very short shrift and would be told he is acting like an entitled arsehole.

Dear OP, I haven't read the replies carefully so if I am duplicating advice then apologies. Like you DH and I had an unplanned baby young followed by two more (1 planned plus another accident). We married while I was pregnant with first, I basically bullied him into it as I was under so much pressure from my parents - if I had been more mature I would have resisted. I think you have summed it up when you say you are bored, organising a wedding will give you a project and stave off boredom for another while but it will return. My advice would be to go back to college, marriage will not suddenly make you happy but educating yourself and planning a career for when the kids are older definitely will give you self-esteem and further independence. If you are already half-thinking of leaving the relationship because you feel unfulfilled I can guarantee that a party and a piece of paper will not change that long-term. No harm in drawing up proper paperwork though as Attila pointed out.

Some interesting perspectives here. Our mortgage and others assets are all in joint names but he has an inheritance tied up in it and I had to sign a legal document stating that I wouldn't go after it if we split. Not a problem to be honest, he is very methodical and I did expect it. No bad marriages around us. His parents happily married, his sibling happily married, majority of our friends happily married (see a theme here?!)
Probably have to face up to the fact it wasn't a problem for us before and it's only my problem now. It just sucks to not be in the same place emotionally I suppose.

I wouldn't be happy having two kids outside of marriage and would want and need that affirmation a marriage gives you.

Don't settle for less if it's what you want - you went through two labours of love for him, can't he at least make you feel cherished? If he is so methodical about you not getting your hands on his money, he maybe should've thought more about producing children.

Do you really want to be saying when your kids are teenagers that you are still waiting on him asking you?

Don't settle cos it suits him.

Is he confusing marriage with a wedding? Can you make it clear you just want to pop to the registry office for 20 minutes one day? No stress, no fuss, no meal, no party, etc. You just want legal protection for yourself and the children.

"Some interesting perspectives here. Our mortgage and others assets are all in joint names but he has an inheritance tied up in it and I had to sign a legal document stating that I wouldn't go after it if we split".

What sort of legal doc did you sign?. Please tell me you sought independent legal advice of your own before signing such a document.

Regardless you need to firmly establish why he does not want to marry at this time. He cannot and should not keep stalling you on this point.

Sorry but I don't think he is that committed.

He went to the effort of protecting his inheritance from you.

BUT he has gone to no effort to financially protect the financial security of you and the children. If he fell under a bus tomorrow, who would get his half of the house etc. His parents?

Marriage is the quick easy way to protect this (and why several of my friends got married). The other is to go and pay a solicitor.

His choice, other wise I would walk away. Better to be the one choosing the timing and being prepared than just dumped.

If he went under a bus tomorrow you would have no right to arrange his funeral and vice versa.

Do you have wills in place?

So he won't marry you, but he's prepared to leave you completely financially fucked if you split up?

What a charmer.

I see that despite you investing every penny of your savings and your ability to earn money in the relationship, he has made sure to protect his inheritance.

He doesn't want to marry you, because if you were married YOU would have rights to his money that you currently don't have.

What on earth made you give up work and make yourself financially dependent on someone who has no legal obligation to you whatsoever?

And who wants to keep that lack of obligation in place permanently?

If he's prepared to leave you in such a precarious situation, he doesn't love you enough and you need to leave because you can't trust him to put your best interests anywhere in his list of priorities.

Are you being selfish? Only in the good sort of way.
Previous posters have mentioned his resentment if he got married by being pressured into it...what about hippoesque's resentment at being fobbed off with vagueness, year after year? Feeling physical pain when having to joke about it to others is a sure sign something has to give here.

Hippoesque, you have been patient long enough. It is a "shit or get off the pot" situation, imho. Continuing along to not rock the boat would make you more and more invisible in your own life. Not good at all.

Also what Jan45 and Attila said.