I'm bothered by this - toxic parent?

[VenusStarr]

Something happened yesterday and I wish I'd said something at the time and now it is still bothering me, although it doesn't directly involve me.

Visited parents yesterday with sister and niece. I have posted in the past about the strained relationship between myself and my parents. To me they just are two adults who I occasionally have to meet up with, they take no interest in mine or my sisters life, but we feel obligated to maintain contact, even though it is oppressive and unpleasant most of the time when we see them.

So what happened was we were eating and my niece was wriggling and started to throw herself back in the chair - she has just started to sit in a big chair as opposed to high chair. I was holding the back of the chair to prevent it from tipping and my sister had already told her no and to stop it and was distracting her with food, which was working. My mother then shouts at my niece to sit still :(

We had already been sitting at the table for around 20 minutes so I can imagine why my 18mo niece was getting frustrated and jiggly.

Im annoyed that I didn't say anything at the time. I spoke to my sister after and she feels the same as me, neither of us know why we didn't challenge my mother on what she did. It was totally inappropriate. My niece was being disciplined by her mum (my sister) so why did my mother undermine her and shout?

This is just one thing in a long line of things that make me think my mother is toxic, I quite frankly would easily have no further contact with her.

This is long, sorry. Don't really know what I'm asking really :(

If the atmosphere is already bad then you're going to see it as undermining. But - to me at least - in a family setting, one member barking 'sit still' at one of the kids if they think the parent isn't fully in control of the situation is pretty normal. Occasionally annoying but normal.

Thank you for replying.
The difference in this scenario is that my sister did have control of the situation.

In a normal family I would agree, but my family isn't normal :(

it sounds like you're writing things down to try to clear your own head. It also sounds like you're clear on what you want to actually do, you just need some reassurance.

Clearly there's a lot more background to this than you said in the original post. From what you said it doesnt sound that bad but I don't think we have the whole picture? Without that (and maybe it's not possible to give the full picture!) it's hard to really say if going NC is the right thing.

Your sister clearly knows the situation. Is she someone you can talk to about it?

Thanks Meerka, there is a LOT of background, far too much for anyone to be interested in!

My sister and I are very close and we do talk about what to do or how best to handle our parents. I just feel like we repeat the same situations, we both get very frustrated but we don't feel we can challenge our parents. When we have tried it has fallen on deaf ears or what we have said - trying to explain how we feel - has been met with 'that never happened' or 'you don't know your own feelings, we know best'

I find it suffocating and oppressive, so I avoid it. Meaning that when I do have to see them I feel inadequate and I 'present' a view of myself that is acceptable to them. I am quite a capable person, but when I am with my parents I revert to being the child :( but they do no accept adult to adult conversations.

My mother is very passive aggressive and this appears to be getting worse - or maybe I'm more aware of it? It was clear yesterday that she was in a bad mood, she hardly spoke or interacted with any of us, until she shouted.

I fully expect an email from my dad (that's how he communicates with us) saying how much they enjoyed seeing us - he has always done the royal 'we'. My mother doesn't communicate with us at all. It's messed up.

As predicted, email saying how much they both enjoyed our visit

I'm beginning to think that there are quite a few 60s/70s mothers who have no idea how to get on with their grown up daughters. Sounds like your dad is trying to keep a relationship w you and you get on well with your sister so those are positives.

I was talking to a friend about something similar a couple of days ago. My Dad dragged my one year ds across the room because he gently touched the light on a DVD player he was sitting playing next to. My Dad absolutely roared at him too. I, too, felt paralysed at the time and here 8 years later I still feel angry that I didn't get right into his face and tell him how awful he was. I immediately picked ds up and comforted him and then called a few days later to say we wouldn't be coming back because of what happened but I still feel angry I didn't do more at the time. I think we have been terrorised into submission as children ourselves and its extremely hard to shake that off.

It sounds like your Dad is the bystander in this familial dysfunction; like the weak man that he is he acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Also women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

People from dysfunctional families as well end up playing roles.

I would not let him off the hook as he has also failed here to protect either of you from your mother's excesses of behaviour.

If I were your sister I would think long and hard about exposing her child to them at all from now on. Toxic parents do not make for being good grandparents.

I would have a look at the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages and consider posting there too. The resources at the start of that thread could also help you.

I would think also you are currently too filled with FOG (Fear, obligation and guilt) to actually feel able to cut them off as yet. Seeing a counsellor on your own would be helpful to you but you need to find one who has no bias toward trying to “keep families together” despite the presence of mistreatment.

It is NOT your fault your parents are like this; you did not make them this way.

AttilaTheMeerkat you have perfectly summarised my family set up. I have spoken to my dad in the past about my mother but have been dismissed and told that I'm in the wrong or I've misunderstood.

Definitely feel in the FOG at the moment :(

Sparkly I'm sorry about what happened to you and your son. Are you no contact with your family?

newgirl I'm pleased that me and my sister have a good relationship

Is it ok to respond to the email saying I'm upset and disappointed at the way she behaved yesterday? I doubt she will see it and I don't think he will tell her, he is very much of the 'lets not argue' keep the peace. Which is the complete opposite if how he was when we were growing up - severe anger management issues, never DV, but we witnessed numerous heavy arguments growing up, I remember my mom banging her bead against the wall trying to get him to listen. Extremely dysfunctional :(

Is there a link to the stately homes thread? I've seen them in the past, would like to look at the links.

I am only in vague contact. The occasional phone call. Last Christmas my Mum told me that she wasn't surprised that my abusive ex H had treated me the way he had (he hit me many times) and on top of my Dad sulking for years because I told him categorically that he must not bellow aggressively at my dc anymore I kind of thought it was time to finally let go of a relationship with them. My Mum was very violent towards us as children and I was terrified of her. She seemed different towards my children but there was a lot being said behind our backs we weren't aware of so it's finished. I am actually bored of the whole thing now that's how I know I am over it.

Oh and you have nothing to lose by telling her what you think, you'll probably feel better for doing so but I wouldn't hold out too much hope for change.

venuss yes it is ok to say that, but don't expect anything to change.

It sounds like you and your sister are both still dominated by them. Even though you'd like to go NC, it soudns like it would be very hard for you. If is -is- what you want though, then there's plenty of support here for you.

this is the link: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families

Thank you Sparkly. That's what I'm trying to weigh up, is it worth me saying anything when I know it won't change anything. But is it better for me to tell them that it was upsetting and inappropriate?

it sounds to me like it's the start of you standing up for yoruself.

so a big Yes

Thank you Meerka, think we cross posted :)

I've been having a look at the stately homes links, need to set some time aside to have a proper read of the thread, thank you for the link.

I think I will send my email, it just says that I think she chose to behave inappropriately and I found it unnecessary and upsetting.

So I had a lengthy response to my email. Firstly denying that it happened - he was sitting at the table with us. Secondly going into great detail about how she is under a lot of pressure at the moment so I should be going easy on her. Thirdly if she believed she had acted in appropriately then she would be the first to apologise. That's the point - she clearly doesn't think she was in the wrong.

What I expected really. Im going to look at the stately thread before I reply - I remember seeing something that said just because you don't remember doesn't mean it didn't happen.

TOXIC - classic response from a toxic set-up. You have been and are being gaslighted and your parents use their victims and environment as excuses for your behaviour. Tell me...are these catchphrases familiar:

Be careful what you say to your mother, you know how she is

See what you've done now?

You've upset your father again

Don't you dare tell anyone our business..

Leave you alone? I'll show you what leave you alone means...

Well, I'm sorry I've been such a terrible parent to you (with a pained expression)

Don't you dare lecture me...

their behaviour, not your

Thank you for the responses, I'm glad you can see it too and it's not me overreacting.

I'm just off to work but I will re-read later and construct a response. But purple spot on with the catchphrases, particularly "Be careful what you say to your mother, you know how she is"

I KNEW I was from a toxic family!!! Glad I helped a bit with the figuring out, but it's also nice to know (in a sort of sad way) that I'm not imagining it either!

I've sent an email in response, asking him not to excuse her behaviour. I also said that if she is feeling under pressure and that she can't cope she needs to seek help and not lash out at family members as its just pushing us away. I also said if she had done that to my child I would be questioning whether I wanted them around that type of atmosphere.

We'll see. He may not reply to that now. I don't know. But I've been looking for some extra reading and found 'the emotionally absent mother' which appears to describe her perfectly so going to give that a try.

Susan Forward's Toxic Parents is a good book.

Website: www.outofthefog.net/index.html

Well done for standing up. I've yet to do that.

E-mailing only gives these people a further "in" to further get back at you for doing so. This is what they want really, a response and you have provided this.

He will likely accuse you now of all sorts along with defending his wife to the hilt (you've gone and upset your mother again, that sort of thing). He would rather see you in the firing line than his own weak self so acts as the bystander failing to protect you and your sibling. He has also therefore failed you abjectly as a parent here.

A way forward for you is to completely now disengage from their game playing; your mother is certainly the driving force behind all this dysfunction and your Dad is the willing weak enabler here. Any response from you is further fuelling these people. They are incapable of accepting any viewpoint other than their own.

His responses are typical responses of the toxic parent, even down to the types of wording used.

I would suggest you read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward as a starting point.